# Zooey Zephyr banned from House floor -- is this legal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 28, 2023, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zooey-zephyr-banned-from-house-floor-is-this-legal/983315 "2023-04-28T15:25:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zooey-zephyr-banned-from-house-floor-is-this-legal/983315/1 "2023-04-28T15:25:43Z")
Representative in the Montana legislature Zooey Zephyr has been banned from the House floor for remarks she made concerning a proposed transgender medical care ban. She can vote remotely but cannot physically be present on the floor, cannot make remarks or debate, etc. My questions are, (1) How is it legal to ban someone, and (2) In theory could she protest this in court as a first amendment violation? > **[Montana transgender lawmaker barred by GOP from House floor](https://apnews.com/article/zooey-zephyr-transgender-montana-house-updates-3054b6bed9ac04920249e6302821e130)** > > Montana Republican leaders are voting on whether to discipline transgender state lawmaker who has been silenced on the statehouse floor for comments against a bill to ban gender-affirming medical care for children. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zooey-zephyr-banned-from-house-floor-is-this-legal/983315/2 "2023-04-28T15:37:21Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > How is it legal to ban someone What would make it illegal? Legislatures set their own internal policies and rules, and they all have procedures to expel or otherwise remove members they want to remove. See also: > [@Tennessee to Expel 3 Democrats (update: all back in office)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-to-expel-3-democrats-update-all-back-in-office/982128): > > Might this backfire? They already have an overwhelming majority, but this seems like the sort of thing that could fire people up. In general, do you think pushing a “Republicans are anti-democracy”, while true, is effective? > [@ratatoskK](#): > > In theory could she protest this in court as a first amendment violation? In theory she could sue them for being doodooheads. Generally, courts are pretty deferential to the operating rules and procedures of a legislative body. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zooey-zephyr-banned-from-house-floor-is-this-legal/983315/3 "2023-04-28T15:38:16Z")
Much like the mistresses of the GOP assclowns who did this: yes, it’s probably legal, but just barely, and either way it’s definitely not OK. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zooey-zephyr-banned-from-house-floor-is-this-legal/983315/4 "2023-04-28T15:40:30Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > (1) How is it legal to ban someone State law, it’s legal if the state makes it legal. The 10th Amendment to the US Constitution gives them the right to do things that might seem wrong. > [@ratatoskK](#): > > (2) In theory could she protest this in court as a first amendment violation? Of course she _could_, but the first amendment doesn’t guarantee that anyone can say anything they want at any time. Legislatures everywhere have rules for how lawmakers are supposed to behave, and enforcement powers to ensure those rules are followed, otherwise things would devolve into chaos. Note that I’m not defending what they did. I think it’s blatant bigotry and it disgusts me. But legally-speaking, I’m sure they’re allowed to do that. The remedy isn’t to take this to court, the remedy is for people to make it clear to lawmakers that they won’t tolerate this. (Through protests and potentially at the polls.) The unintended consequence here for the right is that this sort of thing really mobilizes the left, as it should. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zooey-zephyr-banned-from-house-floor-is-this-legal/983315/5 "2023-04-28T15:41:52Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > (1) How is it legal to ban someone The article you linked mentions “decorum rules.” [Here’s a PDF](https://leg.mt.gov/content/House/rules/99houserules.pdf) of what appears to be the rules for the Montana legislature. Decorum rules are Chapter 2, starting on page 6. I didn’t see anything about banning someone, but legislators do have to have recognition from the Speaker or presiding officer in order to speak on the floor. And, “If a member is called to order, the matter may be referred to the Rules Committee by the minority or majority leader. The Committee may recommend to the House that the member be censured or be subject to other action. The House shall act upon the recommendation of the Committee.” Persumably, “subject to other action” might be loosely interpreted to mean “banned from speaking on the floor”? It looks like the Speaker and the Rules Committee have a fair amount of power, which can be used unfairly or corruptly. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zooey-zephyr-banned-from-house-floor-is-this-legal/983315/6 "2023-04-28T16:26:57Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > State law, it’s legal if the state makes it legal. The 10th Amendment to the US Constitution gives them the right to do things that might seem wrong. Well, they can’t fire her. The _Bostick_ ruling precludes that, but I suspect there’s a lot of latitude within the decorum rules for legislative bodies that would allow for a lot of bigotry to flourish, of whatever kind, as we saw in Tennessee, and are now seeing in Montana. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zooey-zephyr-banned-from-house-floor-is-this-legal/983315/7 "2023-04-28T19:58:43Z")
So… could the Montana legislature (in theory), do the same thing to any person wo broke their internal decorum rules by speaking out loud while deliberately being a dark skin tone? ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zooey-zephyr-banned-from-house-floor-is-this-legal/983315/8 "2023-04-28T20:03:05Z")
…or being of the wrong party? The mind reels at the possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zooey-zephyr-banned-from-house-floor-is-this-legal/983315/9 "2023-04-28T20:04:55Z")
“Deliberately flouting the rules of decorum by not being a Republican.” So you can vote a Democrat into the Montana House, but you can be assured that you will not have any representation. Nice democracy you’ve got there. “But but but… they can’t do that!” Sure. But what if they did? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zooey-zephyr-banned-from-house-floor-is-this-legal/983315/10 "2023-04-28T20:08:26Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > In theory could she protest this in court as a first amendment violation? I wonder that as well, and whether this is another flavor of the Disney suit. Certainly the legislature can make its own rules, but if it can be demonstrated that they’re applied in a demonstrably biased manner to suppress a particular political expression, isn’t that fair game for a smack down? I’m not saying the case is obvious (I don’t know enough details), but I do know that SCOTUS incorporated the First Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2023, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zooey-zephyr-banned-from-house-floor-is-this-legal/983315/11 "2023-04-29T01:59:28Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > The 10th Amendment to the US Constitution gives them the right to do things that might seem wrong. But Article IV, Section 4 says: > The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence. Republican form of government: > These decisions, as well as contemporaneous sources, shed some light on the meaning of the Republican Form of Government guaranteed by the Clause.[2](https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artIV-S4-3/ALDE_00013637/#ALDF_00027121) For example, in the _Federalist No. 39_, James Madison emphasizes popular sovereignty and majoritarian control as among the distinctive characters of the republican form: > > _[W]e may define a republic to be, or at least may bestow that name on, a government which derives all its powers directly or indirectly from the great body of the people, and is administered by persons holding their offices during pleasure, for a limited period, or during good behavior. It is ESSENTIAL to such a government that it be derived from the great body of the society, not from an inconsiderable proportion, or a favored class of it; . . . It is SUFFICIENT for such a government that the persons administering it be appointed, either directly or indirectly, by the people; and that they hold their appointments by either of the tenures just specified[.][3](https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artIV-S4-3/ALDE_00013637/#ALDF_00027122)_ > > \< snip \> > > In other cases, the Court found occasions to opine on the nature of a republican government guaranteed by the Clause in dicta. For example, In re Duncan observes: > > _By the constitution, a republican form of government is guarant[eed] to every state in the Union, and the distinguishing feature of that form is the right of the people to choose their own officers for governmental administration, and pass their own laws in virtue of the legislative power reposed in representative bodies, whose legitimate acts may be said to be those of the people themselves . . . .[8](https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artIV-S4-3/ALDE_00013637/#ALDF_00027127)_ - [SOURCE](https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artIV-S4-3/ALDE_00013637/) ISTM the Montana legislature is denying representation to the members of Zooey Zephyr’s district. I get there can be need to remove members but I would think it needs to be for a serious issue and not just because the majority do not like you or that you are of the other party. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2023, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zooey-zephyr-banned-from-house-floor-is-this-legal/983315/12 "2023-04-29T02:06:39Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I get there can be need to remove members but I would think it needs to be for a serious issue and not just because the majority do not like you or that you are of the other party. Agreed. But the state is who has the jurisdiction about a “serious issue”. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2023, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zooey-zephyr-banned-from-house-floor-is-this-legal/983315/13 "2023-04-29T02:42:19Z")
I said in another thread: Biden should mobilize the National Guard to escort Zephyr to the house chamber. Article IV, section 4 gives him not only the authority, but the mandate, to do this or something like it. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2023, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zooey-zephyr-banned-from-house-floor-is-this-legal/983315/14 "2023-04-29T10:26:56Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Agreed. But the state is who has the jurisdiction about a “serious issue”. Yes, but that doesn’t mean their application of their own rules can’t run afoul of the First Amendment, which of course is incorporated to apply to state governments’ powers. In case anyone missed my super-astute, mega-wise, hella-insightful post above, this is the essence of the Disney suit. Disney doesn’t dispute the state’s powers in all instances. But Disney asserts that they’re exercising their legitimate powers in a way that is specifically punishment for Disney’s political expression. I read a couple of articles (e.g., on CNN) where experts say Disney has a very strong case, and none of the experts disputed the state’s powers per se. I don’t know if Zooey’s case is as strong—I don’t know enough details or history—but I don’t think a First Amendment suit can be dismissed out of hand because “the state can make its own rules.” Such a suit needn’t dispute that. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2023, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zooey-zephyr-banned-from-house-floor-is-this-legal/983315/15 "2023-04-29T11:02:05Z")
I think there would be a stronger case for judicial intervention (which doesn’t mean it would succeed) if she was actually _completely_ excluded. She can still vote remotely and her constituents thus have representation. I don’t think the courts would have any desire to get into the allocation of committee seats and speaking time. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2023, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zooey-zephyr-banned-from-house-floor-is-this-legal/983315/16 "2023-04-29T11:32:37Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > But Article IV, Section 4 says: > > > The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, Exactly. How can you have a Republican Form of Government if you let in a bunch of Democrats? The law could not be more clear. Face it, folks. We’re a year, maybe two, from somebody making this exact argument, with a straight face, in a court of law. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2023, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zooey-zephyr-banned-from-house-floor-is-this-legal/983315/17 "2023-04-29T12:15:24Z")
Sadly it doesn’t seem to be illegal, but the legislature seems (to me) to be denying actual representation to those of her district, who voted her in. They didn’t actually “fire” her, but I they are deliberately excluding her. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2023, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zooey-zephyr-banned-from-house-floor-is-this-legal/983315/18 "2023-04-29T14:02:07Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > What would make it illegal? Legislatures set their own internal policies and rules, and they all have procedures to expel or otherwise remove members they want to remove. Under basic parliamentary law, a member has all rights including in-person attendance and debate. For a deliberative body to remove the rights of membership there must be a trial and/or vote according to their rules. The question is was there a trial under Montana House rules or did they simply have a majority vote to remove her rights and claim that was sufficient since they didn’t “expel” her? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2023, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zooey-zephyr-banned-from-house-floor-is-this-legal/983315/19 "2023-04-29T14:09:39Z")
You may be right. But even if it’s weaker, a case that proves that her First Amendment rights are being violated is still a case, even if the defense is, “Well, it could be worse.” ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2023, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zooey-zephyr-banned-from-house-floor-is-this-legal/983315/20 "2023-04-29T14:18:49Z")
I looked it up. Here is the Montana House rule > H20-90. Violation of rules. (1) If a member, in speaking or > otherwise, violates the rules of the House, the Speaker shall, or the > majority or minority floor leader may, call the member to order, in which > case the member called to order must be seated immediately. > (2) The member called to order may move for an appeal to the House > and if the motion is seconded by two members, the matter must be submitted > to the House for determination by majority vote. The motion is > nondebatable. > (3) If the decision of the House is in favor of the member called > to order, the member may proceed. If the decision is against the member, > the member may not proceed. > (4) If a member is called to order, the matter may be referred to > the Rules Committee by the minority or majority leader. The Committee may > recommend to the House that the member be censured or be subject to other > action. The House shall act upon the recommendation of the Committee. I don’t know what the Rules Committee recommended or if they even dealt with this but (under Rule 4) if a majority of a Committee followed by a majority (and not 2/3) of the house can take away member rights then the rules are F’ed up. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zooey-zephyr-banned-from-house-floor-is-this-legal/983315.md?page=2)