# Zootopia Seen it Thread. Spoilers probably **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 5, 2016, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977 "2016-03-05T03:42:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977/61 "2016-03-29T18:15:58Z")
I loved the graphics, the scenes where Judy was on the train and seeing the territory and the city were mindblowing. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977/62 "2016-03-29T19:15:13Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > No, I’m saying that they wanted to make a movie about prejudice of all kinds. Part of the technique they used to drive that concept home was to use real world stereotypes to demonstrate how the cartoon compares to our own lives. By distributing the tropes amongst the characters, it helps send the message that in the movie, predators aren’t simply a stand-in for African-Americans (or gays, or women, or the disabled, or atheists, or whatever), they are illustrating a broader concept of prejudice that we can all learn from. > > **Malthus** is exactly right. Except that there are genuine, significant genetic differences between predatory and prey animals. So one could also watch the movie and take it to mean that there are physical differences and the only thing keeping that difference contained is fragile willpower. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977/63 "2016-03-29T19:24:29Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Except that there are genuine, significant genetic differences between predatory and prey animals. So one could also watch the movie and take it to mean that there are physical differences and the only thing keeping that difference contained is fragile willpower. It’s an interesting point. Racism in some form or another makes a whole of a lot more sense when you are running a society that contains animals that are, in fact, radically different - from tiny shrews to massive rhinos - and includes both biological predator and prey species. Perhaps part of the ‘message’ is that, even assuming such massive differences, this society has in fact decided, insofar as possible, to eliminate prejudice through an act of will - for the collective good. If they can do it with such disparate material, it ought to be a cinch for us to do it, when all we have are humans who are basically identical in innate abilities other than minor variations in appearance! ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977/64 "2016-03-29T19:39:21Z")
One plot hole in the movie, that I saw, was the question of who polices Tiny Town (or whatever it was called)? Judy’s problem, getting hired, was that she’s a small, weak animal. All other cops are large animals, like elephants, rhinos, and bears. But even Judy was a giant in Tiny Town and looked precipitously close to re-enacting the end of Man of Steel when she was there. How is a rhino supposed to patrol that area of Zootopia? Judy may be small and weak compared to some, but she’s still massive and powerful compared to others. A real, logically organized police department would be trying to recruit people of her size (or smaller) to patrol those areas of town where she was the right size to do the job. And yet, we know that they weren’t. That could explain why the shrews are the head of the mafia, because that area of town is going unpoliced. But there’s no indication in the movie that, that’s the case. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977/65 "2016-03-29T19:44:56Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > One plot hole in the movie, that I saw, was the question of who polices Tiny Town (or whatever it was called)? > > Judy’s problem, getting hired, was that she’s a small, weak animal. All other cops are large animals, like elephants, rhinos, and bears. But even Judy was a giant in Tiny Town and looked precipitously close to re-enacting the end of Man of Steel when she was there. How is a rhino supposed to patrol that area of Zootopia? Judy may be small and weak compared to some, but she’s still massive and powerful compared to others. A real, logically organized police department would be trying to recruit people of her size (or smaller) to patrol those areas of town where she was the right size to do the job. And yet, we know that they weren’t. > > That could explain why the shrews are the head of the mafia, because that area of town is going unpoliced. But there’s no indication in the movie that, that’s the case. They could have closed that off by having a mouse patrol or something, and having part of Judy’s character arc not fitting in with either the mouse patrol or the main patrol, being mid-sized. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977/66 "2016-03-29T20:21:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > “Shifty” is some sort of code word now? 😕:dubious: Traditionally, yes. Though it tended to be applied to, e.g., Jews and Asians at least as much as to black people: [biography of Asian action-movie actor](http://theincrediblesuit.blogspot.com/2010/12/al-leong-life-in-henching.html): > [@](#): > > Al [Leong] was born a while ago somewhere or other, and immediately became the go-to-guy for lazy casting directors looking for shifty oriental types. [Yahoo Answers query](https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20151214195732AA8YSaI): > [@](#): > > Atheists - When was the last time you saw a shifty Jew? > > You don’t need to add the word “shifty” when you already have “Jew”. These Christ killers have turned their backs on God and it shows. [Quote from a 2015 sociology study on attitudes toward immigration] ([http://soc.appstate.edu/sites/soc.appstate.edu/files/Social%20Currents-2015-Lippard-2329496515604640.pdf](http://soc.appstate.edu/sites/soc.appstate.edu/files/Social%20Currents-2015-Lippard-2329496515604640.pdf)): > [@](#): > > Dara, a white female student, said this about the similarities and differences between Latinos and blacks: > > > [@](#): > > > > Well, back when I was growing up, all you had to worry about is shifty colored people or what my dad says, “shifty niggers.” Now, you have to worry about Mexicans taking your jobs and trashing up your neighborhood. They’re really all the same . . . there are shifty Mexicans too. [2013 news article](http://tvone.tv/6318/forest-whitaker-victim-of-racial-injustice-in-new-york/): > [@](#): > > Forest Whitaker may be an Academy Award-winning actor, an accomplished director and producer, plus a millionaire, but in NYC (and several other streets across America), he is just another shifty Negro in the eyes of your average racist. Stormfront forum, no link because that place is gross but you could certainly find it by googling the quoted text: > [@](#): > > He is a long tall thin fellow but his face is not clear enough to read his character from it. You know, those shifty negro eyes. [_History of the University of Virginia_, 1922](http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Dorm_Life_an_excerpt_fromHistory_of_the_University_of_Virginia_1819-1919by_Philip_Alexander_Bruce_1920-1922): > [@](#): > > The state of neglect into which the students’ domiciliary conveniences and comforts sometimes fell was full of danger from the modern hygienic point of view. It taxed the chairman’s vigilance to the utmost to compel the lessees of the hotels to keep their respective rooms in a wholesome condition of order and cleanliness; and the smallest slackening on his part too often resulted in a return to the slovenliness and untidiness against which the young men so frequently rebelled. The hotel-keepers relied upon the shifty negro servants; and the servants themselves, even when willing, were sometimes unable to maintain the apartments as they should be because they were not provided with the necessary linen. In December, 1830, there was an outcry from the dormitories, and an investigation was begun. [P.G. Wodehouse, “The Military Invasion of America”, 1915](http://www.madameulalie.org/vfus/The_Military_Invasion_of_America.html) (note that this example is **satirizing** the common slur): > [@](#): > > The momentous conversation took place, accordingly, on the following day. It was conducted in the language of diplomacy, which, as anyone who has seen this year’s crop of war plays is aware, stands in a class by itself. It is a language specifically designed to deceive the chance listener. > > Thus, when the Prince, turning to Owoki, as the latter consumed his portion of buckwheat cakes and maple syrup, said “I hear the crops are coming on nicely down Tokio way,” none of the waiters perceived anything remarkable in the words. But Owoki, nursed from the cradle in an atmosphere of diplomatic subtlety, understood at once that what the Prince meant was “Now, about this business of America. What do you propose to do about it?” > > Owoki hesitated for a moment, then replied blandly: “The food here is good, but I am not sure that I do not prefer the Honble Childs.” > > The Prince frowned at this typical piece of shifty Oriental diplomacy. Hope that fought some ignorance. I’m off to take a shower now. With disinfectant. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977/67 "2016-03-29T20:38:10Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Alas, I bet it was a lot easier than that. I wasn’t there at the writers’ meetings, of course, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they just browsed Urban Dictionary and Reddit for fifteen minutes and came up with enough derogatory stereotypes of various groups to last them all the way up through the zany Hopps-Wilde/Lemming-Oryx-Antlerson wedding in _Zootopia VI: The Family That’s Prey Together_. Heck, all of the ones I mentioned I could have come up with myself. These are really common racist/sexist/prejudicial tropes. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977/68 "2016-04-01T01:30:08Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Loved the references. Especially the Breaking Bad reference. That broke me up. Yeah, that was my favorite gag. It was perfect. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977/69 "2016-04-01T05:23:04Z")
[quote=“Kimstu, post:66, topic:747977”] Traditionally, yes. Though it tended to be applied to, e.g., Jews and Asians at least as much as to black people: [biography of Asian action-movie actor](http://theincrediblesuit.blogspot.com/2010/12/al-leong-life-in-henching.html): [Yahoo Answers query](https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20151214195732AA8YSaI): > [@](#): > > ([http://soc.appstate.edu/sites/soc.appstate.edu/files/Social%20Currents-2015-Lippard-2329496515604640.pdf](http://soc.appstate.edu/sites/soc.appstate.edu/files/Social%20Currents-2015-Lippard-2329496515604640.pdf)): > [2013 news article](http://tvone.tv/6318/forest-whitaker-victim-of-racial-injustice-in-new-york/): > Stormfront forum, no link because that place is gross but you could certainly find it by googling the quoted text: > [_History of the University of Virginia_, 1922](http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Dorm_Life_an_excerpt_fromHistory_of_the_University_of_Virginia_1819-1919by_Philip_Alexander_Bruce_1920-1922): > [P.G. Wodehouse, “The Military Invasion of America”, 1915](http://www.madameulalie.org/vfus/The_Military_Invasion_of_America.html) (note that this example is **satirizing** the common slur): > Hope that fought some ignorance. I’m off to take a shower now. With disinfectant. Sure it’s an insult. But it’s not necessarily a racist one. You can find lots of nasty words attributed to minorities. “Devious”, “Sneaky” and so forth. No Dictionary I can find lists it as a racial slur: American Heritage , Collins, Random House ,Webster’s College Dictionary, Merriam Webster, Cambridge, Wikionary- none of these. And not always an insult: > **[Shifty Shellshock](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shifty_Shellshock)** > > Seth Brooks Binzer (August 23, 1974 – June 24, 2024), better known by his stage name Shifty Shellshock, was an American rapper and singer-songwriter who cofounded the rap rock band Crazy Town, known for their hit song "Butterfly". He later had a solo career as well. Binzer struggled with addiction throughout his career and appeared on the reality television series Celebrity Rehab and Sober House. > Binzer met fellow Crazy Town frontman Bret Mazur in 1992; they started collaborating under the na... ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977/70 "2016-04-01T10:44:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure it’s an insult. But it’s not necessarily a racist one. You can find lots of nasty words attributed to minorities. “Devious”, “Sneaky” and so forth. And when applied to races, they _are_ racist slurs. > [@](#): > > No Dictionary I can find lists it as a racial slur: American Heritage , Collins, Random House ,Webster’s College Dictionary, Merriam Webster, Cambridge, Wikionary- none of these. > > And not always an insult: > [Shifty Shellshock - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shifty_Shellshock) Jesus, the knots some people will twist themselves in to avoid being woke. Yes, “shifty” is a racial slur, because it’s applied on a racial basis - shifty Negro, shifty Oriental… Saying “it’s not in the dictionary” is a laughable rebuttal. And the existence of other uses of the word proves precisely fuck and all. The word “yellow” has lots of benign uses. Applied to East Asians, though, it’s a slur. “Greedy” has legitimate usages too - but tack it in front of the word “Jew”, and it’s a slur. Yes, pedantically, properly, it’s the whole construction of “shifty Negro” (and as commonly, “shift_less_ Negro” - like the way racists think Blacks can be devious and dumb at the same time) or “Greedy Jew” that’s the slur. That doesn’t mean “shifty” isn’t the common factor int he various slurs **Kimstu** was good enough to look up. I hope they enjoyed their shower. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977/71 "2016-04-01T11:10:35Z")
In the UK the film is called “Zootropolis”. I really don’t understand the point of this unless “Zootopia” was taken by something else already; “Zootopia” fits the themes of the film better. > [@OpusThePenguin](#): > > I saw it yesterday and I burst out laughing to see Kristen Bell credited for the voice of Priscilla the sloth. For those unfamiliar, please youtube “Kristten Bell” and “sloth”. I totally forgot about the Bell / sloth thing. Freaking genius. [quote=“cmkeller, post:46, topic:747977”] [li]Spotted two references to “Frozen”. The flower thief is “Duke Wesselton”, [/li][/quote] “Weaselton” 😃 Note that they inverted the joke - in “Frozen” the Duke gets called “Weaselton” and corrects it to “Wesselton”; here, it’s the other way around. > [@](#): > > and Nick tells Judy at one point, “This isn’t some fairy tale where you sing a song and you get everything you want - **let it go**.” The bootleg DVDs we see later include a “Frozen” parody (and a lot of other Disney film parodies as well - e.g. “Tangled” becomes “Wrangled” and features a horse). > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > One plot hole in the movie, that I saw, was the question of who polices Tiny Town (or whatever it was called)? When she goes in, the other officer shouts at her to wait for the “tiny officers” to deal with it (I can’t remember his exact words for what he called them). So yes, there are local police. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977/72 "2016-04-01T15:36:51Z")
Saw the movie this Tuesday. I thought it would be a good time to see it with no crowds (8 pm on a Tuesday night) but since it was spring break, we almost couldn’t get tickets! The animation was amazing. All that fur! And the backgrounds! I thought the whole thing was an allegory for the crack epidemic, with the government introducing a drug that made a whole group of citizens into savages. But my friend said I took that idea a little too far, and the government-introducing-crack thing was just a urban myth 🙂 Cool movie, very deep. I will watch it again for sure. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977/73 "2016-04-01T17:47:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And when applied to races, they _are_ racist slurs. > Jesus, the knots some people will twist themselves in to avoid being woke. Yes, “shifty” is a racial slur, because it’s applied on a racial basis - shifty Negro, shifty Oriental… Saying “it’s not in the dictionary” is a laughable rebuttal. Actually, it’s a\* damn good rebuttal \*as the term “shifty” here is **NOT** being applied to a race. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977/74 "2016-04-01T18:07:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Actually, it’s a\* damn good rebuttal \*as the term “shifty” here is **NOT** being applied to a race. :dubious: The point is that various animal categories in the movies are **stand-ins** for the notion of human racial categories. Seriously, the term “shifty” is traditionally a well-recognized slur for various non-white groups. Google “shifty Negro” and “shifty Oriental” yourself if you don’t believe me. It’s not just a random negative epithet with zero specific racial connotations, like “overanxious” or “inattentive” or “clueless”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977/75 "2016-04-01T18:54:27Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: The point is that various animal categories in the movies are **stand-ins** for the notion of human racial categories. > > Seriously, the term “shifty” is traditionally a well-recognized slur for various non-white groups. Google “shifty Negro” and “shifty Oriental” yourself if you don’t believe me. > > It’s not just a random negative epithet with zero specific racial connotations, like “overanxious” or “inattentive” or “clueless”. And shifty\* anything.\* It’s a slur, but not a recognized racial slur. Like I said- no dictionary considers it one. and note you can’t come up with \* specific\* racial connotations, since shifty has been applied to Jews, Italians, Amerindians, and what-not. I suspect that in China white people are called “shifty”. Nor has anyone shown that any species= a given race. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977/76 "2016-04-01T20:38:47Z")
I don’t even know what you’re trying to argue here, DrDeth. We provided a long list of slurs, tropes, and codewords that the filmmakers used to communicate the message of the film. You’ve taken issue with one of them (which I assume means you agree with the rest) despite several people telling you they consider it a slur. The fact that it’s in the movie implies that the writers also consider it a slur, since, again, that’s the point. So what difference does it really make here? Even if the word shifty itself is not technically a slur, it’s obviously often used as one, or in conjunction with one, right? Doesn’t that mean essentially the same thing here? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977/77 "2016-04-01T21:07:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It’s a slur, but not a recognized racial slur. Like I said- no dictionary considers it one. A dictionary isn’t the only yardstick of what is “recognized” about language. For example, no dictionary describes “cunning” as a specifically anti-Semitic slur, either. But you only have to google the phrase “cunning Jews” to realize that the word has historically been applied to Jews by non-Jews as a common and specifically anti-Semitic trope. [QUOTE=DrDeth] and note you can’t come up with \* specific\* racial connotations, since shifty has been applied to Jews, Italians, Amerindians, and what-not. I suspect that in China white people are called “shifty”. [/quote] Whatever white people may be called in China doesn’t affect the fact that in the majority-white US, the word “shifty” **has** traditionally been used as a slur applied particularly to various **non-white** groups (since Jews, Arabs and other “exotic” peoples were not considered “white” until comparatively recently). If you refuse to take into account the actual textual evidence for the historical use of “shifty” by white Americans as a slur **disproportionately** and **conventionally** applied to various non-white groups, I can’t make you. But it doesn’t strengthen your case. [QUOTE=DrDeth] Nor has anyone shown that any species= a given race. [/QUOTE] **Nobody’s attempting to argue that there’s any one-to-one allegorical correspondence in the movie between a particular species and a particular race.** The point of the “racism” analogies in _Zootopia_ is that they **mix up** the racism references among different species. E.g., it’s foxes who are considered “shifty” but it’s sheep who are always getting their hair handled by intrigued non-sheep, and rabbits who have “in-group” expressions that non-rabbits shouldn’t use for them, etc. The question of whether “shifty” is a racial slur does not depend in any way on whether _Zootopia_ is using a strict one-to-one race-to-species match-up. Your entire attempt at an argument is incoherent. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977/78 "2016-04-01T21:41:38Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > A dictionary isn’t the only yardstick of what is “recognized” about language. For example, no dictionary describes “cunning” as a specifically anti-Semitic slur, either. But you only have to google the phrase “cunning Jews” to realize that the word has historically been applied to Jews by non-Jews as a common and specifically anti-Semitic trope. > Whatever white people may be called in China doesn’t affect the fact that in the majority-white US, the word “shifty” **has** traditionally been used as a slur applied particularly to various **non-white** groups (since Jews, Arabs and other “exotic” peoples were not considered “white” until comparatively recently). > > If you refuse to take into account the actual textual evidence for the historical use of “shifty” by white Americans as a slur **disproportionately** and **conventionally** applied to various non-white groups, I can’t make you. But it doesn’t strengthen your case. > > The question of whether “shifty” is a racial slur does not depend in any way on whether _Zootopia_ is using a strict one-to-one race-to-species match-up. Your entire attempt at an argument is incoherent. What is? I mean, if we dont have a source then it’s all: The Dude: _Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man._ Nope, since “Oriental cunning” is also a popular phrase. Not _a specifically anti-Semitic trope_ at all. Sure. Various groups that \*arent us. \* Whoever “us” is. If you go back, it was jsgoddess who claimed “shifty” was used to indicate the fox was a stand-in for \*Black \*people. Not any random minority. \*That’s who i replied to. \* \*Originally Posted by **jsgoddess** View Post “This one was clearly about racism, black people (the fox was called “shifty,” for goodness sake! .\*” Thus, Your _entire attempt at an argument is incoherent_ ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977/79 "2016-04-01T22:03:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nope, since “Oriental cunning” is also a popular phrase. Not _a specifically anti-Semitic trope_ at all. Not a **uniquely** anti-Semitic trope (and I never said it was). But absolutely, the word “cunning” has been used **specifically** and **characteristically** for Jews. [QUOTE=DrDeth] If you go back, it was jsgoddess who claimed “shifty” was used to indicate the fox was a stand-in for \*Black \*people. Not any random minority. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > This one was clearly about racism, black people (the fox was called “shifty,” for goodness sake! [/quote] You omitted the very relevant remainder of **jsgoddess** ’s sentence there, which doesn’t support your claim at all: > [@jsgoddess](#): > > This one was clearly about racism, black people (the fox was called “shifty,” for goodness sake! And “articulate”), hidden prejudice and bias, privilege, sexism, demagoguery and fear-baiting, anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic prejudice, and a host of other things. The use of slurs like “shifty” and “articulate” associated foxes with black people, while the use of slurs like “cunning” associated foxes with “wog” groups such as Jews or Asians. Meanwhile, the trope of getting-handsy-with-the-wool associated **sheep** with black people and foxes with non-black people, while the trope of the in-group/out-group word distinction associated **rabbits** with black people. That is, **jsgoddess** was nowhere claiming that the movie **strictly and consistently** used foxes as a stand-in for black people. She was commenting on the melange of mixed-up racial allusions that **all** have specific, often multiple, racial connotations in US culture. (And also on all the accompanying allusions to sexism and other forms of bias.) As **jsgoddess** added in a later post: > [@jsgoddess](#): > > These are really common racist/sexist/prejudicial tropes. Which is essentially the point I’ve been making all along. [QUOTE=DrDeth] Thus, Your _entire attempt at an argument is incoherent_ [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: Now you just look desperate. Come on, **DrDeth** , you queried whether “shifty” as a term of disparagement has recognized racial connotations, and I adduced various textual evidence indicating that yes, it traditionally has had such connotations. You can go read any of the sources I linked, or look through any of thousands more that are easily found on the internet, to see the strong tendency for whites to use “shifty” for **non-white** racial groups, rather than for untrustworthy people in general. I have absolutely no idea why you’ve become so ridiculously fervent in making this quite uncontroversial issue the hill you want to die on. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977/80 "2016-04-01T22:11:56Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Actually, it’s a\* damn good rebuttal \*as the term “shifty” here is **NOT** being applied to a race. “Analogy”, look it up : “species” is /əˈnæl.ə.ɡəs/ to “race” Hastur, next you’re going to be telling us there’s _nothing_ racial about the crows in _Dumbo_… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zootopia-seen-it-thread-spoilers-probably/747977.md?page=5)