# ZPG Zealot: A troll too far **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 14, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621 "2011-01-14T17:55:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/261 "2011-01-15T09:13:32Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Actually, it isn’t ingrained in many American cultural groups. I grew up in the old South where men only extended their hands first to hookers. Most of my families close non-Roma friends were orthodox Jews or Latino, none of them ever pawed at women, well hookers in bars maybe, but not women they respected. In fact, the only American cultural group that I know of where sticking out a hand at a woman is accepptable is the lower working class sort of redneck culture where the people don’t know how to act like polite members of society. Excuse me. I’m a working-class redneck, to someone inclined to use that as a slur. I don’t initiate handshakes with women. (Somewhat conversely, I do offer a hand, in a different manner, to assist women in and out of vehicles and the like. Particularly when she’s in heels, and it’s a pickup truck. Like I said…) This convention, of course, does not at all mean that men _can’t shake hands with women_, as several comments have suggested. I’ve shook plenty of women’s hands–every time they were offered. > [@NinetyWt](#): > > Back in the day, it was proper for a man to gently take a woman’s hand and kind of bow over it; men and women didn’t shake hands in the same way that two men did. Yes, but the women offered their hands first. A few older Southern women still do this. You can tell what the woman expects by the position of her hand. Even the most modern professional woman, I think, doesn’t want a full firm-grip shake as between men (though, too, a growing fraction of pale-necked men offer limp finger-squeezes in place of a proper shake). ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/262 "2011-01-15T10:56:00Z")
I really don’t know why I am bothering, but hand-shaking has been, for centuries, a symbol of bona-fides and acknowledgement of legitimacy. IOW, greeting someone, and/or concluding an encounter with a handshake was intended to mean that everything was cool, and that any transactions during that time were binding. A handshake was the best thing before written contracts, and anybody betraying the contract would be marked as a scoundrel of the worst order. Thus, extending the handshake to WOMEN allows them to act as free agents in the previously male-dominated sphere. Rather than marginalising females, the hand-shake has acted to INCLUDE women in areas that that they would not have been previously allowed. IOW, handshaking has been a liberating thing for women, not a tool of violent sexual oppression as poor ZPG seems to think. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/263 "2011-01-15T11:10:11Z")
Just a note extra…if I were to encounter any person, male or female, in a professional capacity and they did NOT shake my hand on first meeting, I’d be worried. Caveats include blokes who are Jewish or Muslim…they get a free pass because of their religious beliefs. Anybody else better bloody-well shake my hand. And funnily enough, apart from those whose religious strictures deny them, I have never found a problem with hand-shaking…in my experience, it’s the great equalizer. Obviousy, her mileage varies etc, but I’ve never been raped either. Maybe I’m picking the wrong blokes to shake hands with 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/264 "2011-01-15T11:28:49Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > she’s over played her hand at this point. Heheheh. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/265 "2011-01-15T12:47:48Z")
Sorry, I know we’re ignoring her now, but I have to respond to this: > [@curlcoat](#): > > I’d say that referring to 9/11 as “airliner crashes” is not quite as close to what happened than “bombings”. The first sounds like an accident, the second a purposeful act of violence. Or, more accurately, “airliner crashes” sounds like the crash of airliners, which happened on 9/11, while “bombings” sounds like the deliberate explosion of bombs, which did not. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/266 "2011-01-15T15:02:08Z")
What **Smeghead** said. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/267 "2011-01-15T15:14:16Z")
It was, however, the deliberate explosion of airliners. Really, with all the legitimately ridiculous things she says, this is a silly thing to get nitpicky about. Also, boring. I demand that the fun be returned to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/268 "2011-01-15T15:50:45Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > … I demand that the fun be returned to this thread. I’ll shake on that. _offers hand to DianeG_ ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/269 "2011-01-15T15:55:24Z")
_slaps Morgenstern_ What kind of woman do you think I am?!?! ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/270 "2011-01-15T15:58:34Z")
Oh no. Slaprape ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/271 "2011-01-15T16:02:56Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > So what if she chooses to accept someone’s handshake, and doesn’t feel violated at all? I would consider that how she wished to live her life and her business. It would be one of the factors I would consider if I was ever called upon to offer an opinion or evaluation about her behavior, but then so would everything else I knew about her. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/272 "2011-01-15T16:04:28Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Actually, it isn’t ingrained in many American cultural groups. I grew up in the old South where men only extended their hands first to hookers. That explains a lot. You grew up in an entirely imaginary world. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/273 "2011-01-15T16:09:13Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > [O rly?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_raising) > > Anyway, I’ll play devil’s advocate. All else being equal, a guy who insists on touching a woman, or tries to shame her into it (“it’s just a handshake, what’s your problem?”) is probably more likely to be a rapist or abuser. And yes, it is forced, on a societal level. It’s forced on everyone, really. Shaking hands sucks, but it’s one of those things you have to put up with. To avoid it you’d either have to turn into a social freak who sticks out like a sore thumb and be the subject of harsh judgment, or be a hermit. > > ZPG: Instead of stabbing them, why don’t you one up them by offering your hand to them? Now they’re the whore! Oh wait, that doesn’t work for guys I guess. Slut/stud split. I guess fantasizing about slicing into their inards with a blade is better… :o Because I don’t shake hands with strangers or for the hell of it. If I publically take someone’s hand, it means we have a contract that I will honor as seriously as if it were already hammered out in a legal document and I could be sued for breaking it. Among my own and long time contacts, we sometimes don’t even bother with the legal documents. We shake on it, it’s done, and we don’t cheapen it. ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/274 "2011-01-15T16:10:51Z")
I’m sort of amazed that we’ve gotten 6 pages in without someone bringing up the dreaded “cooties.” Ewwww, Girls! Don’t touch em! You’ll catch teh rapist!!! ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/275 "2011-01-15T16:14:11Z")
> [@sandra\_nz](#): > > What if I, as a woman, extend my hand first? According to etiquette, that is what is suppose to happen if you want to shake hands with a man. Some women shake hands commonly. Others don’t, but it should be their choice, not something forced by a man. I don’t shake hands fivolously because I think it confuses people about your motives and can lead to misunderstandings and it cheapens the gesture. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/276 "2011-01-15T16:18:13Z")
Do explain this “forced” thing. Perhaps we understand the meaning of that word differently. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/277 "2011-01-15T16:21:34Z")
> [@Lasciel](#): > > I’m sort of amazed that we’ve gotten 6 pages in without someone bringing up the dreaded “cooties.” > > Ewwww, Girls! Don’t touch em! You’ll catch teh rapist!!! Air filter! Air filter! ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/278 "2011-01-15T16:21:41Z")
But most women don’t care when a man doesn’t wait to see if they’re OK with handshake and just sticks it out. Over the course of my life, I’ve shaken hands with lots of men who just did that and I never felt violated. I’ve never had another woman confide in me that she felt violated by a handshake. It just doesn’t happen, and there’s no point in men going out of their way to accommodate a tiny, neurotic percentage of the population. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/279 "2011-01-15T16:23:19Z")
I vote not a troll. Just a whack job crazy person. She seems to want to return to a time when illegitimate children were always so identified so as not to expose the worthy to their uncleanliness! She respects all the last century nonsense of Roma culture, and the deep south and their niceties. She’s living in another world, one which doesn’t exist anymore and never did as she has framed it. Nut job, straight up. Trying to engage with her is completely fruitless, there is no reason in her. She wants to turn back the clock to another time, of superstition and social position, and bloodlines and parentage. Probably because it makes it easier to make a living as a charlatan card reader. Seriously, do not attempt to engage with the crazy, or she’ll cast her stink eye upon you (from somewhere in the last century). Woo, woo! ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/280 "2011-01-15T16:25:23Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Seriously, do not attempt to engage with the crazy, or she’ll cast her stink eye upon you (from somewhere in the last century). Woo, woo! Hey, what if we need to lose a few holiday pounds? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621.md?page=15)