# ZPG Zealot: A troll too far **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 14, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621 "2011-01-14T17:55:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/281 "2011-01-15T16:30:46Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > Why specifically man-to-woman, anyway? Why doesn’t the same logic apply when a man offers to shake another man’s hand? That’s a serious question. It seems either you’re admitting that men and women are not to be treated as social equals, or no one should ever offer to shake another person’s hand. Though I think a man should have the right to refuse to shake hands for whatever reason, I tend to leave the issue of man-to-man handshaking to be resolved between the men involved. Whenever I see two men shaking hands for no real reason, I tend to think shallow character. Man-to-woman is specifically vile because of the centuries of oppression of women, because of working women being confined to the sex industry for so long, because of how sexual harassment is not taken as seriously as it should be, and because rape and female battery is still too common in the world. The principle is simple men do not touch women without their permission. Men do not try to intimidate or embarass or blackmail women into touching them either. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/282 "2011-01-15T16:37:40Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But most women don’t care when a man doesn’t wait to see if they’re OK with handshake and just sticks it out. Over the course of my life, I’ve shaken hands with lots of men who just did that and I never felt violated. I’ve never had another woman confide in me that she felt violated by a handshake. It just doesn’t happen, and there’s no point in men going out of their way to accommodate a tiny, neurotic percentage of the population. Really, you have spoken with every woman in the world. Likewise, I have never had a woman confide in me that she felt insulted if a man didn’t stick his hand out at her. I have had many women confide in me how uncomfortable, humiliated and threatened, they have felt by men forcing to shake hands with them. I have known women that have quit their jobs and redrew from public and some who have become dangerously depressed over the lack of respect they have had to work under. Etiquette is about respecting everyone’s differences, not imposing your whims on others. If you want someone to touch your hand as a casual greeting, ask politely, just like you ask someone to pass an object to you rather than reach over them to get it. It’s simple courtesy. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/283 "2011-01-15T16:41:47Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I have had many women confide in me how uncomfortable, humiliated and threatened, they have felt by men forcing to shake hands with them. I have known women that have quit their jobs and redrew from public and some who have become dangerously depressed over the lack of respect they have had to work under. So my graduation ceremony reduced a good chunk the female students to emotionally troubled hermits, with a desire to stab the President and Dean? Edit: just what do you want for equality? Seems like shaking one groups hand but not the other says the group isn’t equal. Handshaking is a gesture of equals. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/284 "2011-01-15T16:42:57Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I have had many women confide in me how uncomfortable, humiliated and threatened, they have felt by men forcing to shake hands with them. So tell us again how offering a hand to shake is forcing anyone to do anything. > [@](#): > > I have known women that have quit their jobs and redrew from public and some who have become dangerously depressed over the lack of respect they have had to work under. Withdrew from public life because a man offered to shake hands? Became dangerously depressed? Bull fucking shit. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/285 "2011-01-15T16:44:16Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > … I have had many women confide in me how uncomfortable, humiliated and threatened, they have felt by men forcing to shake hands with them. … Really. I’ve asked three times now. What do you mean by forced? To me that implies that some guy tackled the woman, sat on her, grabbed her hand and shook it. What exactly do you mean by “forced to shake hands?” ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/286 "2011-01-15T16:54:17Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Really. I’ve asked three times now. What do you mean by forced? To me that implies that some guy tackled the woman, sat on her, grabbed her hand and shook it. What exactly do you mean by “forced to shake hands?” She made it clear the last time we did this. Extending your hand to a woman is forcing her to shake hands, in her world. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/287 "2011-01-15T16:55:35Z")
> [@](#): > > I have had many women confide in me how uncomfortable, humiliated and threatened, they have felt by men forcing to shake hands with them. I have known women that have quit their jobs and redrew from public and some who have become dangerously depressed over the lack of respect they have had to work under. You sure do know a lot of pathetically fragile people. ---
**Author:** ![sandra\_nz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@sandra\_nz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sandra_nz)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/288 "2011-01-15T16:57:51Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > According to etiquette, that is what is suppose to happen if you want to shake hands with a man. Some women shake hands commonly. Others don’t, but it should be their choice, not something forced by a man. I don’t shake hands fivolously because I think it confuses people about your motives and can lead to misunderstandings and it cheapens the gesture. That was certainly the etiquette in western culture a few decades ago. But you understand that etiquette changes with time, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/289 "2011-01-15T17:01:46Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > She made it clear the last time we did this. Extending your hand to a woman is forcing her to shake hands, in her world. One wonders how extensively she applies this philosophy. Does offering food force her to eat? Does offering a job force her to work there? Does offering advice force her to take it? ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/290 "2011-01-15T17:05:42Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Withdrew from public life because a man offered to shake hands? Became dangerously depressed? Bull fucking shit. Yes. **ZPG Zealot** , you seem to be implying that some nontrivial proportion of women feel that, when a man offers to shake a woman’s hand, he is acting disrespectfully by attempting to force her to touch him against her will. This flies in the face not only of my common sense and personal experience (as a North American, middle class, adult male, with significant amounts of time spent in higher-educational and professional settings) but – apparently – that of pretty much everybody else here. So I’d appreciate some kind of citation, anything, that demonstrates or even _indicates_ the existence of some nontrivial number of women who feel “uncomfortable, humiliated and threatened[…] by men forcing to shake hands with them” or who “quit their jobs and redrew from public” for such reasons. In my culture, the handshake is an overwhelmingly agreed-upon way to greet a new person in a professional context. It is a way of saying “my hands are open, I am not in a position to harm you, we are equals”, and is – for me – completely void of any hint of aggression. Indeed, if I were to see a man who did not offer to shake the hand of a woman (particularly one who is his professional equal) my first inclination would be to wonder if that man feels that women are inferior. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/291 "2011-01-15T17:17:34Z")
I consider any woman who shakes my hand to have made a declaration of Thumb War. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/292 "2011-01-15T17:25:44Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > She made it clear the last time we did this. Extending your hand to a woman is forcing her to shake hands, in her world. Okay, I get it. If I whip out Simba I’m forcing her to shake him. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/293 "2011-01-15T17:32:00Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Anyone that throws a hissy fit because someone doesn’t want to rub the flesh of their hand has a problem understanding boundaries. For the record any kind of forced touching not related to law inforcment or life-saving acts is considered assault in the United States. And anyone who, like you, freaks out because someone offers to touch you, has a problem understanding boundaries. Sticking my hand out in front of you is not against the law in any place in the U.S. You claim to want to live in a society that accepts multicultural practices, but you refuse to accept them yourself. You call us bigots, when you are the one calling 99% of all men rapists. You know, lately I’ve been accused of throwing this word around too lightly, but I think it fits here. You are a bigot. You pretend to be about cultural awareness, but what you really are is bigoted against any culture that is different from your own. You just can’t seem to grasp the fact that standard American morals are different from your Roma ones. But the one thing you are not is a troll. So, um, congratulations. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/294 "2011-01-15T17:33:10Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > honeybunches of nuts I love this ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/295 "2011-01-15T17:45:32Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Really, you have spoken with every woman in the world. Likewise, I have never had a woman confide in me that she felt insulted if a man didn’t stick his hand out at her. I have had many women confide in me how uncomfortable, humiliated and threatened, they have felt by men forcing to shake hands with them. I have known women that have quit their jobs and redrew from public and some who have become dangerously depressed over the lack of respect they have had to work under. Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/296 "2011-01-15T17:49:36Z")
_woman and baby playing in house_ ‘Hey non-related baby, sounds like your male guardian’s coming back from work!’ _man enters_ ‘How’s the little cuckoo and his female guardian’s day been?’ ‘Oh, we’ve had a lovely day, male co-guardian with whom I have a voluntary non-procreational sexual relationship! This baby here nearly managed to call me Mrs. Johnson! And I found out something fantastic, but first, how’s your day been? You look terrible’ ‘Oh yes female partner, I’ve had an awful day. Our new business partner started today; she’s female, despite the male dominated environment. Anyway, you remember Jones? He offered to shake her hand when she came in!’ ‘Oh my word!’ ‘Yes, wife, I dragged him off and phoned the police immediately, but they just don’t take sexual assult seriously… I assured her the other co-workers didn’t think she was a prostitute at all, but she must have been quite traumatised, she didn’t even speak to me for the rest of the day, despite the clear signal that I’m not a rapist, and well, because I threatened the patriachy, the boss has given me a written warning.’ ‘Oh, the poor woman. I suggest she gets herself to a healer or wise-woman as soon as she can, she must still be in denial…’ ‘Anyway female co-guardian , you and the non-related baby, what was the good news?’ ‘Oh well, I was looking into his true family’s history… oh… isn’t he so adorable, I just can’t understand why his mother never strangled him at birth…’ ‘I know co-guardian, but then, she was a heroin addict, one can’t expect her to make a rational decision, and maybe she wanted to be sure of having a spare kidney in later life, but do please carry on!’ ‘Well, I was looking through the hospital records, and I found out his real, true mother has a living half-sister! Yes, she’s 19 and in college!’ ‘Fantastic news female co-guardian! Well, don’t let’s waste a minute, I say we get drive down there straight away, and dump him on her doorstep! After all, he will share an average of 25% of her genetic material, so would obviously be the best person to care for a baby she doesn’t know exists!’ ‘Yes, isn’t it marvellous, I was so worried he might accidently call me ‘mom’, I mean, it’s such an easy word for a baby to accidently let slip out, then what would people think?’ _two adults and unconnected baby skip happily off to the car_ ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/297 "2011-01-15T17:53:14Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Likewise, I have never had a woman confide in me that she felt insulted if a man didn’t stick his hand out at her. That’s a lie. Or a sin of confirmation bias. You had women in that last thread \*and \*this one tell you that they would feel insulted if a man didn’t offer to shake her hand in a professional setting. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/298 "2011-01-15T17:54:36Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I have had many women confide in me how uncomfortable, humiliated and threatened, they have felt by men forcing to shake hands with them. Then they were as big crybabies as you. Grow up. Big scary men offering to shake your hand make you all feel threatened? You seriously don’t understand that the rest of the COUNTRY doesn’t dream of handshaking to be offensive to anyone, that it’s in your own head? ---
**Author:** ![FloatyGimpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/floatygimpy/32/7750_2.png) [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/299 "2011-01-15T17:58:52Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > _woman and baby playing in house_ > ‘Hey non-related baby, sounds like your male guardian’s coming back from work!’ > would people think?’ > > _two adults and unconnected baby skip happily off to the car_ Awesome. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/300 "2011-01-15T17:58:59Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > I consider any woman who shakes my hand to have made a declaration of Thumb War. If you win, do you claim the right to rape, loot and pillage? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621.md?page=16)