# ZPG Zealot: A troll too far **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 14, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621 "2011-01-14T17:55:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/481 "2011-01-20T19:55:05Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Just to lightly touch on the “handshake rape”, our [Rapist](http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/02/14/amd_obama-handshake.jpg)-in-[Chief](http://blog.mlive.com/elections_impact/2008/06/medium_080413_clinton_obama_handshake.jpg). _Ugh._ Will we ever elect a president that isn’t a damn WASP? ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/482 "2011-01-21T01:24:30Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > _Ugh._ Will we ever elect a president that isn’t a damn WASP? No, Never. We’re all a bunch of WASP rapists, err I mean [Racists](http://www.stormfront.org/forum/). ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/483 "2011-01-21T01:42:28Z")
Oh, BTW, I forgot to mention the fact that I want to shake hands with our current Secretary of State! I lurrve me some Hillary! BTW, anyone think **ZPG Z** will shake hands with me? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/484 "2011-01-21T11:27:27Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > However, I do concur that American views on race are not really “Caucasian = white.” Yeah, that’s what my point was. You guys use “white” to mean something else; in Spain it’s linked to skin color when left in the shadow long enough. Are Roma a separate ethnic and cultural group? Yes. Are they a different color from yon average Juan Español, Mario Rossi or Jean Dupont? No. And non-Roma (payo in Spanish Roma) also makes no reference to skin color: the president of Kenia is as payo as I am. Those different definitions affect discourse, and discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/485 "2011-01-21T12:50:28Z")
Romani skin colouring varies from typical [Northern European](http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/feb/24/billy-joe-saunders-boxing) to '[just off the plane from India’](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8136873.stm), with a long stop in the [Mediterranean](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Joaqu%C3%ADn_Cort%C3%A9s.jpg) along the way. As a general rule, [Western European](http://www.applebyfair.org/images.html) groups tend to be more pale than those from [Central Europe](http://www.soros.hu/foto/L/1999/01-15_eves%20evfordulo/20-Roma_nap/02335.jpg) and the [Balkans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PICT0058.JPG). > [@Nava](#): > > Are Roma a separate ethnic and cultural group? Yes. Are they a different color from yon average Juan Español, Mario Rossi or Jean Dupont? No. And non-Roma (payo in Spanish Roma) also makes no reference to skin color: the president of Kenia is as payo as I am. Those different definitions affect discourse, and discussion. Though commonly used in English as a more polite way of saying Gypsy, not every Romani person is Roma. Roma specifically refers to those Romani groups from Eastern/Central Europe. Interestingly, the Spanish Romani people are Kale/Kalo, which means black, with the language being Caló, which also means black. As to the subject of this thread: Strict Romani culture is like Orthodox Judaism with OCD. Like with skin colour, levels of strictness vary. The ZPG stuff is about as far away from typical Romani thinking as you can get. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/486 "2011-01-21T13:42:28Z")
My understanding is that most gypsies in North America and Britain are either Romanichal or Irish Travelers, not Roma. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/487 "2011-01-21T15:04:30Z")
> [@Kal](#): > > Though commonly used in English as a more polite way of saying Gypsy, not every Romani person is Roma. Roma specifically refers to those Romani groups from Eastern/Central Europe. Interestingly, the Spanish Romani people are Kale/Kalo, which means black, with the language being Caló, which also means black. Long time no see you in one of these 🙂 Didn’t want to confuse things further with added vocabulary, I’m irritating enough with the “white” stuff and, unlike you, outside the particular group being discussed. ---
**Author:** ![Azeotrope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/0ea827/32.png) [@Azeotrope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azeotrope)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/488 "2011-01-21T15:10:16Z")
> [@Kal](#): > > As to the subject of this thread: Strict Romani culture is like Orthodox Judaism with OCD. Like with skin colour, levels of strictness vary. The ZPG stuff is about as far away from typical Romani thinking as you can get. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I was hoping someone familiar with the Romani culture would come along because I had been wondering exactly that. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/489 "2011-01-21T16:47:43Z")
> [@Kal](#): > > As a general rule, [Western European](http://www.applebyfair.org/images.html) groups tend to be more pale than those from [Central Europe](http://www.soros.hu/foto/L/1999/01-15_eves%20evfordulo/20-Roma_nap/02335.jpg) and the [Balkans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PICT0058.JPG). Wouldn’t the Appleby Horse Fair be Irish Travelers, not Romani? I was under the impression that they were distinct ethnic groups, though they share similar lifestyles. > [@](#): > > Though commonly used in English as a more polite way of saying Gypsy, not every Romani person is Roma. Roma specifically refers to those Romani groups from Eastern/Central Europe. Good to know! I was under the impression that Roma and Romani were interchangeable, perhaps based on number (e.g., “a Roma, many Romani”). ---
**Author:** ![llcoolbj77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@llcoolbj77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/llcoolbj77)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/490 "2011-01-21T18:56:09Z")
That was entertaining and worth the price of admission (thanks **jsgoddess** ). I am off to go meet with my clients, and will make sure to shake their hands firmly so that they know I think of them as equals. I am such an unabashed whore sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/491 "2011-01-21T20:58:54Z")
The Wikipedia article on [Romani people](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people) probably does a better job explaining Rom, Roma and Romani better than I can: > [@](#): > > Rom, Romani > Romani usage > > In the Romani language, rom is a masculine noun, meaning “man, husband”, with the plural roma. Romani is the feminine adjective, while romano is the masculine adjective. Some Romanies use Rom or Roma as an ethnic name, while others (such as the Sinti, or the Romanichal) do not use this term as a self-ascription for the entire ethnic group.[19] > > Sometimes, rom and romani are spelled with a double r, i.e., rrom and rromani. In this case rr is used to represent the phoneme /ʀ/ (also written as ř and rh), which in some Romani dialects has remained different from the one written with a single r. The rr spelling is common particularly in Romania, in order to distinguish from the endonym for Romanians (sg. român, pl. români).[20] > > English usage > > In the English language (according to the Oxford English Dictionary), Rom is a noun (with the plural Roma or Roms) and an adjective, while Romani (Romany) is also a noun (with the plural Romanies or Romanis) and an adjective. Both Rom and Romani have been in use in English since the 19th century as an alternative for Gypsy. Romani was initially spelled Rommany, then Romany, while today the Romani spelling is the most popular spelling. Occasionally, the double r spelling (e.g., Rroma, Rromani) mentioned above is also encountered in English texts. > Distribution of the Romanies in Europe based on self-designation. > > Although Roma is used as a designation for the branch of the Romani people with historic concentrations in Eastern Europe and the Balkans, it is increasingly encountered during recent decades[21][22] as a generic term for the Romani people as a whole.[23] > > Because all Romanies use the word Romani as an adjective, the term began to be used as a noun for the entire ethnic group.[24] > > Today, the term Romani is used by most organizations—including the United Nations, the Council of Europe, and the US Library of Congress.[20] Appleby fair is mixed, really. Irish Travellers do attend, as do Welsh Kale and Scottish Travellers. I’d say most folk there are Romanichal though. Used that site 'cos it had lots of pictures of white folk. Oh, and yeah, Irish Travellers are not Romani. Celtic (or, possibly, pre-Celtic), rather than Asian. As to North America, the majority of Romani people there are indeed Roma. IIRC, the largest single group are Kalderash. Romanichals are probably second largest, but all the Roma groups combined outnumber them quite a bit. Maximum of just a few thousand Irish Travellers in the US, mostly in South Carolina (once again, IIRC). Ninja edit on preview: Wiki to the rescue again: > [@](#): > > North America > > The beginning of the 19th century saw the first Romani group, the Romanichal, arrive in North America. The ancestors of the majority of the contemporary local Romani population, Eastern European Roma, started to migrate during the second half of the century. Among these groups were the Romani-speaking peoples like the Kalderash, Machvaya, Lovari and Churari, as well as the linguistically Romanianized groups, like the Boyash (Ludari). Most of them arrived either directly from Romania after their liberation from slavery between 1840–1850, or after a short-period in neighbouring states such as the Russia, Austria-Hungary, or Serbia. The Bashalde arrived from what is now Slovakia at about the same time.[101] This immigration decreased drastically during the Communist era in Eastern Europe, but resumed in the 1990s after the fall of Communism. Romani organizations currently estimate that there are about one million Romanies in the USA[citation needed] and 80,000 in Canada.[102] It’s sorta incorrect to say that Romanichals didn’t arrive in North America until the 19th century, though. As a group, yeah, but shitloads were sent there as slaves or prisoners under British rule. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621.md?page=24)