# ZPG Zealot: A troll too far **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 14, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621 "2011-01-14T17:55:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/81 "2011-01-14T23:22:55Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Sure. The difference is that the first statement is a self criticism, ie. “Ignore my eccentric personal quirk, I grew up in a less enlightened society than yours.”. The second is a criticism of you ie. “I don’t touch men because my society says it’s wrong to and my society is right to. Your society is screwed up.” > > You’re insulted because she doesn’t accept the superiority of your culture. That’s clearly not what she said. Again, she said “Men who shake women’s hands are potential rapists and should be watched.” I don’t know where you’re getting this bit about society from. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/82 "2011-01-14T23:24:53Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > She may be a US citizen and grew up in America, but that doesn’t mean that she grew up in the American culture. And she’s not saying that men shouldn’t offer their hands to women because women are “too fragile to touch the big tough men.” She’s saying that men shouldn’t offer their hands to women because it’s sexually insulting. Except that is not what she thinks. She has not said that women who shakes hands with men are sluts, or unclean, or anything like that. She has only said that \*men \*who shakes hands with women are probably rapists. She’s a nutter. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/83 "2011-01-14T23:24:58Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > But ZPG Zealot is at least as immersed in American culture as she is in any other, so she has no excuse for applying sinister motives to \*American \*men who initiate a handshake, which is, after all, deeply ingrained in American culture. Actually, it isn’t ingrained in many American cultural groups. I grew up in the old South where men only extended their hands first to hookers. Most of my families close non-Roma friends were orthodox Jews or Latino, none of them ever pawed at women, well hookers in bars maybe, but not women they respected. In fact, the only American cultural group that I know of where sticking out a hand at a woman is accepptable is the lower working class sort of redneck culture where the people don’t know how to act like polite members of society. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/84 "2011-01-14T23:26:47Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > She may be a US citizen and grew up in America, but that doesn’t mean that she grew up in the American culture. And she’s not saying that men shouldn’t offer their hands to women because women are “too fragile to touch the big tough men.” She’s saying that men shouldn’t offer their hands to women because it’s sexually insulting. No, she’s saying that men shouldn’t offer their hands to women because it’s as bad as, indeed it _is_, rape. Men who stick out their hand to a woman might as well stick out their penis. Really, we went round and round and offered her many suggestions about how she could maybe modify this to make it, you know, sane. Nope. Handshake=Rape. End of story. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/85 "2011-01-14T23:31:50Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > She may be a US citizen and grew up in America, but that doesn’t mean that she grew up in the American culture. And she’s not saying that men shouldn’t offer their hands to women because women are “too fragile to touch the big tough men.” She’s saying that men shouldn’t offer their hands to women because it’s sexually insulting. She clearly believes that women should be treated differently than men, even in a business environment. Why else would women be treated differently except because of their oh-so-delicate constitutions? Fuck that. I spent years in school and worked hard to earn respect in my professional field. Over time I’ve shook hands with probably hundreds of men and never have I encountered one who shook mens hands but not womens. If I did I would be fairly offended. I work as hard as any man in my field and I’m not about to accept different treatment solely due to my possession of a vagina. I’m not in need of some kind of protection from the big nasty men of the world. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/86 "2011-01-14T23:33:30Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > That’s clearly not what she said. Again, she said “Men who shake women’s hands are potential rapists and should be watched.” I don’t know where you’re getting this bit about society from. Any man who insists on touching a woman when she doesn’t want to be touched is potentially a rapist. How this could be a controversal statement, I’ll never understand? ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/87 "2011-01-14T23:36:08Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Any man who insists on touching a woman **when she doesn’t want to be touched** is potentially a rapist. How this could be a controversal statement, I’ll never understand? Most women don’t have any problem shaking hands with people. That’s what you don’t understand. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/88 "2011-01-14T23:37:10Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Any man who insists on touching a woman when she doesn’t want to be touched is potentially a rapist. How this could be a controversal statement, I’ll never understand? For the last time, dopey, putting out your hand is not ‘insisting’. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/89 "2011-01-14T23:40:01Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > She clearly believes that women should be treated differently than men, even in a business environment. Why else would women be treated differently except because of their oh-so-delicate constitutions? > > Fuck that. I spent years in school and worked hard to earn respect in my professional field. Over time I’ve shook hands with probably hundreds of men and never have I encountered one who shook mens hands but not womens. If I did I would be fairly offended. I work as hard as any man in my field and I’m not about to accept different treatment solely due to my possession of a vagina. I’m not in need of some kind of protection from the big nasty men of the world. Well, I spent years in shcool and worked hard to earn respect in my professional field. I work harder than most men and I will be damned if any sexist asshole is going to publically reduce me to the social level of a prostitute. I am not some toy to jump doing his bidding. I am there to do my job and I demand respect for that. It has nothing to do with “oh-so-delicate constitutions” it’s an acknowledgement that working women deserve to treated with respect. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/90 "2011-01-14T23:45:57Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Well, I spent years in shcool and worked hard to earn respect in my professional field. I work harder than most men and I will be damned if any sexist asshole is going to publically reduce me to the social level of a prostitute. I am not some toy to jump doing his bidding. I am there to do my job and I demand respect for that. It has nothing to do with “oh-so-delicate constitutions” it’s an acknowledgement that working women deserve to treated with respect. So then why don’t you get upset when men shake hands with other men? \*Clearly \*that means they are reducing their male clients and business partners to prostitutes, right? They better watch out before they get raped! ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/91 "2011-01-14T23:47:20Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > It has nothing to do with “oh-so-delicate constitutions” it’s an acknowledgement that working women deserve to treated with respect. Why should we accept being treated differently than men? Why can’t you accept that most of us would be much more offended if a man went around the room shaking hands and skipped us than if they offered their hand? Why does it not matter that your cultural mores are offensive to us,when it matters so much if our culture offends your tiny minority? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/92 "2011-01-14T23:52:06Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > For the last time, dopey, putting out your hand is not ‘insisting’. For the last time, sleeze bucket, putting out you hand is often a highly visible act that MANY people can observe, not just you and the other person involved. You don’t have the right to damage someone else’s reputation by your actions regardless of what that act means to you personally. Just as I don’t walk up to someone in an academic business meeting and ask how they cheat on their taxes, I don’t appreciate them implying that I’m a hooker or an easy mark in negotiations. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/93 "2011-01-14T23:52:45Z")
**ZPG Zealot** , just as a note for the future: As a general rule, men don’t treat women like they’re prostitutes by _shaking hands_ with them. They treat them like prostitutes by fucking them and then paying them for the pleasure. Surely you can see the difference. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/94 "2011-01-14T23:53:38Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > For the last time, sleeze bucket, putting out you hand is often a highly visible act that MANY people can observe, not just you and the other person involved. You don’t have the right to damage someone else’s reputation by your actions regardless of what that act means to you personally. Just as I don’t walk up to someone in an academic business meeting and ask how they cheat on their taxes, I don’t appreciate them implying that I’m a hooker or an easy mark in negotiations. Holy crap, you get nuttier with every word. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/95 "2011-01-14T23:54:08Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > For the last time, sleeze bucket, putting out you hand is often a highly visible act that MANY people can observe, not just you and the other person involved. If you’re in the US, who is doing this observing that is leading to them believe you’re a ho? Actually, I’ll back up a step: If you saw a man offer me his hand, would you believe I’m a whore? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/96 "2011-01-14T23:56:37Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > So then why don’t you get upset when men shake hands with other men? \*Clearly \*that means they are reducing their male clients and business partners to prostitutes, right? They better watch out before they get raped! To be quite honest, I think men who shake hands with men too freely are shallow, but I will leave that to other men in how they choose to deal with that. I certainly do support the right of any man who does not want to shake hands casually to avoid the practice. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/97 "2011-01-14T23:57:07Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I work harder than most men and I will be damned if any sexist asshole is going to publically reduce me to the social level of a prostitute. Except that’s not what an AMERICAN man means when he extends his hand to a woman for a handshake. In mainstream American culture it’s a friendly greeting, nothing more. And if you’re going to live and work in mainstream American culture, then you need to learn its rules of etiquette. It would be like me moving to Japan and refusing to bow because “I don’t kowtow to anyone!”, completely ignoring how a bow functions as a greeting in Japan. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/98 "2011-01-14T23:57:19Z")
**ZPG Zealot** , I was born out of marriage. According to the same traditions that say giving a woman a handshake is just like rape, I am a vampire. Am I a vampire? ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/99 "2011-01-14T23:58:11Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > For the last time, sleeze bucket, putting out you hand is often a highly visible act that MANY people can observe, not just you and the other person involved. You don’t have the right to damage someone else’s reputation by your actions regardless of what that act means to you personally. Just as I don’t walk up to someone in an academic business meeting and ask how they cheat on their taxes, I don’t appreciate them implying that I’m a hooker or an easy mark in negotiations. Except no one is actually implying this. Imagine you grew up speaking a language where a word that sounds like “hello” was actually an obscene curse akin to “fuck you”. Everywhere you went in English speaking countries, it would sound to you like everyone was being unspeakably rude to everyone. Or you could realize that **it doesn’t mean what you think it means to them.** ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621/100 "2011-01-15T00:01:18Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > If you’re in the US, who is doing this observing that is leading to them believe you’re a ho? > > Actually, I’ll back up a step: > > If you saw a man offer me his hand, would you believe I’m a whore? If you were offended by it, no. If you reacted pleasantly, I would wonder. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zpg-zealot-a-troll-too-far/567621.md?page=6)