Zulu, the 1964 movie

[Shirley_Ujest]

First off, ZULU is an outstanding film.
Secondly, **London Calling ** I will pop in my copy of this film (not tonight, it’s nearly midnight} and see if I can spot a helicopter.

but if I end up watching the entire flick, it will be all your fault

[Jeu_D_esprit]

*Originally posted by DPWhite *
**
But (hijack) the most amazing defensive action ever was a losing battle that won a war. 490 b.c. at the pass at Thermyplae, 327 Spartan warriors held off 80,000 Persians for 3 whole days. (Spartans, incidentally put the lie to the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy, as when they were away from their women folk (usually) they frequently took comfort in the arms of their comrades.) Because the Persian land force arrived too late to help with the naval battle. It’s been a while since I’ve read Herodotus, so if casdave or another can correct the errors, I’d be appreciative. (All Spartans, and their King Leonides, were killed by the Persians.) **

(continue hijack)
If memory serves me, there were also Thebans and locals in with the Spartans. Once they got flanked, the Thebans withdrew and the locals stayed and died with the Spartans.

Also the subject of a movie from the sixties “The 300 Spartans”, but not nearly as good as “Zulu”.
(end continued hijack).

cheers!

[Major_Feelgud]

1. Basically they only charged on one side. Even if they outnumbered the British 1000:1, they could only charge a certain number of men at one time.

2. The Zulu snipers on the hill had all sorts of guns even Brown Besses or older guns. With no training, they didn’t know how to aim, they had lousy powder, sometimes loaded stones. They probably killed as many Zulus as they did British.

3. They hadn’t eaten for 2 days and had run many miles. Even so, they fought extremely well, were extremely courageous and would have overcome the defenders if they had only charged a few more times.

4. But they were professional. I’m sure Zulu veterans had killed many more men than the British soldiers ever had.

[Major_Feelgud]

*Originally posted by Deptford *
**
The film shows how they did it in the scenes where each line of men fires in turn. One firing while the other reloads.The resulting firepower is a match for any machinegun. **

Entirely artistic license. There are many many inaccuracies in the film. That would have decreased the rate of firing to the slowest man. They fired at will.

[London_Calling]

*Originally posted by Shirley Ujest *
Secondly, London Calling I will pop in my copy of this film (not tonight, it’s nearly midnight} and see if I can spot a helicopter.

Thanks for that offer, Shirl!

I have to mention I haven’t been able to spot the damn thing – I tend to think – if it is there – you’ll need a very large screen and a magnifying glass but I could be wrong. If it helps any, I think I recall mention of it being towards the beginning somewhere.

Happy hunting!

[TwistofFate]

Stop throwing
Your BLOODY Spears,
At me.

I do a great Michael Caine impression. not alot of people know that.

[toscar]

I enjoyed the movie but it should be recognised that the war was a disgraceful and unjustifiable act of aggression against the Zulu Nation.

[Major_Feelgud]

*Originally posted by toscar *
**I enjoyed the movie but it should be recognised that the war was a disgraceful and unjustifiable act of aggression against the Zulu Nation. **

Yeah, that’s true. The Brits did a lot of unjustifiable stuff in those days. But how did you think the Zulu nation came about? By acts of unjustifiable acts of aggression against other African nations. The Zulu nation wasn’t some innocent Red Cross like association. They massacred a lot of other blacks. And they killed and raped a lot of Bushmen who did absolutely nothing to them. Yep, us humans are a cruel and disgraceful lot.

[toscar]

Major Feelgud posted:
“Yeah, that’s true. The Brits did a lot of unjustifiable stuff in those days…”

Perhaps, as a mere British infantry lieutenant WW2, I should not gainsay a “major” but I take mild exception to, “the Brits did a lot of unjustifiable stuff in those days.”

Suspecting that the “major” is an American may I respectfully remind him of the skeletons in his own country’s cupboard dating from “those days.”.

Recommended elsewhere in this forum is Donald R.Morris’s “The Washing of the Spears.” I agree, it’s an excellent book.

[Major_Feelgud]

*Originally posted by toscar *
**Major Feelgud posted:
“Yeah, that’s true. The Brits did a lot of unjustifiable stuff in those days…”

Perhaps, as a mere British infantry lieutenant WW2, I should not gainsay a “major” but I take mild exception to, “the Brits did a lot of unjustifiable stuff in those days.”

Suspecting that the “major” is an American may I respectfully remind him of the skeletons in his own country’s cupboard dating from “those days.”.

Recommended elsewhere in this forum is Donald R.Morris’s “The Washing of the Spears.” I agree, it’s an excellent book. **

Hey, hey, that’s ancient history. We all did a lot of unjustifiable things. But the Brits stand out, maybe because I had a heavy dose of English history in my childhood, India, Ireland, Africa, etc. But I’ll be the first to admit that other nations were worse and Britain was the first to turn around, first to fight the slave trade, first to voluntarily give up colonial power, etc.

[Leonidas]

Sorry to continue the minor hijack.

Not to quibble, but I have something of an interest in Thermoplyae.

Thermoplyae was in 480 BC, not 490. The battle in 490 was Marathon and involved the Athenians and the Persians. The Spartans were not there, but that didn’t stop the Athenians from treating the Persians rather harshly.

The common numbers say there were 300 Spartans citizens at Thermoplyae and an unknown number of light troops drawn from the non-citizen underclass (helots) on which Spartan society depended. The grand total from Sparta was less than 1000, and probably less than 600. Also present for the start of the battle were a number of representatives of the other Greek city-states including some 700 Thespians, 500 Phoicans, and about 2000 Thebans. Others were represented in smaller numbers.

The Spartans held out for two days without yielding the pass, but on the evening of the second day the Persians were informed of another pass (really more like a goat trail) that would allow them to get behind the Spartans. Since Leonidas already knew about this pass he had dispatched his least useful troops, the Phoicans, to guard it. He didn’t expect they would be able to hold back a determined offensive, but at least he would have some warning of the Persians’ approach on his rear. He would have used the Thebans, but he didn’t trust them. Rightfully so since many Greek City-States had joined the Persians, and the Thebans made it clear that they didn’t’ want to even be there. Anyway, the Phoicans did just as expected: they turned and ran as soon as they saw the Persian troops. In the Phoicans defense, the troops that they encountered were the Persian Immortals, Xerxes elite troops.

Seeing that he was now going to be attacked from both sides, Leonidas dismissed all the Greek troops to return and bolster the rest of the Greeks. The Spartans (and Leonidas) were forbidden to leave by their laws. The Thespians also refused to go (and they say actors are pansies), and Leonidas declared them brothers and allowed them to stay.

Some parts of the legend go that Leonidas also sent a Spartan who was wounded back to carry word of what had happened. According to the legend the Spartan was cast out of the city for leaving the battle and spent the rest of his life trying to prove his courage, finally doing so by getting killed doing something stupidly heroic, but not memorable enough for me to recall it off the top of my head.

In any event the remaining Greeks then fought from all sides until they were all killed. The legend goes that the last knot of defenders took to a small hill and killed so many Persians that Xerxes finally pulled his troops back and just had his archers barrage the hill until the Greek were all dead. The legendary hill on which this happened was the subject of an archeological dig in the 50s or 60s and they found a few thousand Persian arrowheads in it, so there may be something to the story.

Leonidas’ defense of the pass allowed the other Greek forces to escape and join the army that would later defeat the full Persian army. They got a pretty nice monument out of it as well.

I could go on, but since this is a hijack anyway, I’ll shut up.