Do language classes exist where teacher doesn't speak language of the students?

[Revtim]

In this pit thread there's talk of English speakers who speak no Japanese going to Japan to teach English, in a "full immersion" type of class. Does this really work? I suppose the students would already have to speak pretty good English, but then what's the point of the class? Kind of a final brush-up? Is this really effective?

[Nametag]

When I studied Beginning French (UC Berkeley, class of '88), there was no English spoken in the room at all. The instructors knew English, but the curriculum called for total immersion, and we got along fine.

[Laughing Lagomorph]

When my child was diagnosed with hearing loss we were told that there was an organization in our state (Mass.) that would send a deaf person who knew ASL to our house, for free, to teach us ASL. We declined the kind offer, but I remember hearing from other families who said aside from the first few minutes of the first session, it wasn't difficult at all.

[Ringo]

What I found a bit more astounding in that thread was the implication that the english speaker in question learned Japanese by just being immeresed in Japanese society. Japanese is a tough language for a native english speaker to just "pick up."

[amarinth]

Originally posted by Laughing Lagomorph
When my child was diagnosed with hearing loss we were told that there was an organization in our state (Mass.) that would send a deaf person who knew ASL to our house, for free, to teach us ASL. We declined the kind offer, but I remember hearing from other families who said aside from the first few minutes of the first session, it wasn't difficult at all.

I've taken more than one ASL class like that. (The teachers could write in english - but they almost never did.)

[Astroboy14]

When I first came to Korea, I spoke not a word of Korean. My classes and I got along just fine... of course there were frequent comfusions, but that's to be expected.

[MrO]

When I first went to Japan to teach English, I had no Japanese beyond hello, goodbye, thank you, and excuse me. Same when I first came to Korea. It's pretty common. Usually, if the teacher stays very long, he or she will learn some of the local language, but it's actually pretty rare in EFL or ESL classes (English as a Second/Foreign Language) for the teacher to learn the local language better than the students know English.

Those who manage to teach English abroad for several years without ever learning more than a few words of the local language are often the butt of jokes, from students and other teachers, but they can be good teachers. They do better in fairly advanced classes, but even in beginner classes, there are ways to communicate without the local language. In some classes I've taught, particularly middle school classes, we teachers have been told not to use the local language even if we can.

The students have typically studied English for some time from textbooks and non-native English speaking teachers, so they have some basic understanding of grammar and vocabulary, but they are often pretty helpless at actual communication. English, like other languages, is full of idioms and expressions that are almost impossible to learn without the guidance of a native speaker. Sometimes pronunciation is so difficult that a student can't be understood even if he or she knows English well. In many classes, the teacher's job is to help the students improve their English, more than to teach new information. To become really proficient in a foreign language, for most folks, is a long hard road.

For an absolute beginner class, with students who know zero English, you really need a teacher who speaks the students' native language. Total immersion in such cases works okay for children, but less well for adults. I've heard of adults who were forced into total immersion situations, such as being put in prison in a foreign country. They eventually learn, and some learn faster than others, but it's not easy. The language acquisition part of the brain seems to harden as we get older, and learning a language naturally becomes tougher.

[YiBaiYuan]

Revtim, I taught the kind of classes you describe for a couple of years. The only difference was that I was in China, not Japan. They work fairly well, depending on the effort the student puts into it.

As you surmised, the student needs to have at least some familiarity with English. But they're not so proficient that it's just a brush up. The lowest level class available with a native English teacher requires that the student be able to carry on a very basic conversation. ("Hello. My name is ... I work in a factory, etc.") Students below that level enter a class with a teacher from their own country who can speak both languages. Once they can understand a foreign teacher, speaking ... very ... very ... slowly, then they move into that class.

Usually classes with a foreign teacher are very expensive, so the students are extremely motivated not to waste their time. They feel that they can learn English from a native English speaker much better than from a local teacher who speaks English with a heavy accent. Whether that's true or not is open to debate; but that's how they feel.

They are also motivated to learn English as fast as possible and with as little accent as possible, because for many of them this is their ticket to a much better job. If they can get hired by a multinational company with offices in their city, they'll make ten times as much as working in a local factory or store. Very motivational!

As for the teacher, most language schools that send Americans to a foreign country to teach English require a Bachelors degree. They tell you that you don't need teaching experience, because they can train you to present the English lessons. But all of the ones I've seen or heard about require a degree in some field, due to the requirements of the foreign government (China, Japan, Korea, etc.)

A neat side benefit, as has been pointed out by another poster, is that the teacher gets to learn the students' language at the same time. All in all, it was a great experience, and one I'd recommend to anyone able to do it.

[YiBaiYuan]

Revtim, I taught the kind of classes you describe for a couple of years. The only difference was that I was in China, not Japan. They work fairly well, depending on the effort the student puts into it.

As you surmised, the student needs to have at least some familiarity with English. But they're not so proficient that it's just a brush up. The lowest level class available with a native English teacher requires that the student be able to carry on a very basic conversation. ("Hello. My name is ... I work in a factory, etc.") Students below that level enter a class with a teacher from their own country who can speak both languages. Once they can understand a foreign teacher, speaking ... very ... very ... slowly, then they move into that class.

Usually classes with a foreign teacher are very expensive, so the students are extremely motivated not to waste their time. They feel that they can learn English from a native English speaker much better than from a local teacher who speaks English with a heavy accent. Whether that's true or not may be open to debate; but that's how they feel.

They are also motivated to learn English as fast as possible and with as little accent as possible, because for many of them this is their ticket to a much better job. If they can get hired by a multinational company with offices in their city, they'll make ten times as much as working in a local factory or store. Very motivational!

As for the teacher, most language schools that send Americans to a foreign country to teach English require a Bachelors degree. They tell you that you don't need teaching experience, because they can train you to present the English lessons. But all of the ones I've seen or heard about require a degree in some field, due to the requirements of the foreign government (China, Japan, Korea, etc.)

A neat side benefit, as has been pointed out by another poster, is that the teacher gets to learn the students' language at the same time. All in all, it was a great experience, and one I'd recommend to anyone able to do it.

[ratatoskK]

The "Berlitz method" uses only the language being taught, not the language of the students. I taught using Berlitz in Spain, the classes are all in English.

[RealityChuck]

My wife went to Finland to teach English for preschoolers there. They wanted someone who spoke no Finnish to force the kids to use English all the time.

[syncrolecyne]

A lot of ads I have seen for ESOL teachers in Europe, Japan, or Latin America insist that the prospective teacher NOT know the local language fluently - for immersion.

[Equipoise]

My husband's mother taught English at Tokyo University despite knowing very little Japanese and not having an education degree. She taught English as it is spoken in America, not as it is learned formally from books. She loved the job, the students and the country.

[Gary T]

Though it's not the type of situation in the OP example, there are also English classes held in the U.S. for immigrants, where the students come from various countries and no common language is shared. The teachers probably don't know any of the students' languages, and certainly don't know them all. Takes a lot of pointing and acting out.

[Revtim]

Thanks for all the info everyone, interesting stories!

[t-keela]

Hey, I've taught English classes here in Texas and the students in my class spoke something, English it was not!

[mazzer]

In Texas, ESL (English as a Second Language) has taken some heat for being partially ineffective. They learn to speak but don't learn grammar. It works well to teach someone to conversate, but it's basically monkey-see, monkey-do. Thus, when they are placed in regular English classes, they immediately falter.

So I would say it's effective for adults simply wanting to be functional in a foreign society, but for kids wanting to become a member of society, not as effective. I am just reflecting the sentiment I encountered, so I could be wrong, not having first-hand experience.

[racinchikki]

conversate

[nitpick]Converse.[/nitpick]

[Sublight]

Mr. O's experiences in Japan pretty much match my own. Most of the students taking "English Conversation" classes had already studied (or were currently studying) English grammar and basic vocabulary in Jr. High and High School, and now wanted a class where they could learn to communicate (something the school systems are notoriously ineffective at teaching). Some wanted to be able to travel without a tour guide, some needed to be able to guide foreign visitors around their factory, some who worked at hospitals wanted tips on helping foreign patients, and others just enjoyed shooting the breeze in a foreign language.

Some absolute beginners take classes with non-Japanese speakers, such as in the government-sponsored JET program in the public schools, but in these cases they are usually working alongside the students' regular (Japanese) teacher. One does the nuts and bolts grammar, and one demonstrates how to use it in everyday situations.
Incidentally, I studied Japanese for a year and did some volunteer ESL teaching in Chinatown (Boston) before coming over. It wasn't absolutely essential, but it helped significantly a number of times (especially considering how little preparation my first school gave me).

[handy]

Yes, we have a Deaf ASL teacher at our local college who does not speak the language, but
instead, signs it.

[Chronos]

While my dad was stationed in Vietnam, one of his duties was to teach an ESL class to Vietnamese students, all without knowing a lick of Vietnamese himself. From his descriptions of how he tried to tell the class "Man is on the Moon" on that fateful July day, I rather suspect that most of his students doubted his sanity.

[matt_mcl]

I don't think that my teachers here in Spain speak any English.

[mandielise]

My German teacher was from Russia, and although she knew a little English, she was far from fluent. From day 1 we spoke German. The only hard thing was understanding the grammar. It's hard to understand what "habe gegangen" means if you don't realize that it's a past form of the verb "to go!"

[irae]

I've been teaching EFL here in Taiwan for almost 10 years. IMO, immersion works much better when the student is placed in an environment where the target language is spoken outside of class (ie. immigrants taking classes in the US), than in their home country, but it does work. I've had dozens of classes of absolute, rank beginners without a word of English, including children under 4 years old and folks well past middle age. When I arrived, my Chinese was limited to "Hello", "Sorry/Excuse me" and "How much?" I spent two months learning the local phonetic system, and picked up the rest over time. I'm certainly not fluent, and don't read or write, but I can conduct all of my daily business and have general conversations. Some people have a gift for languages, and can learn very quickly just by living in a target-language environment.

[Daoloth]

<hijack> What are some organizations that employ native English speakers to go to foreign countries and teach total immersion classes? </hijack>

[Space Vampire]

Can be good, can be bad. I had good experiences learning Chinese from non English-speaking teachers, but that was with two years of Chinese in the US under my belt. Nothing like immersion to help you get over that plateau that you can reach in classes taught in your own language. Despite occasional trouble understanding more abstract ideas, it was a really good experience.

On the other hand, I taught English to kids in Hong Kong and wasn't supposed to even let on that I understood them. Some kids, especially in the older groups, knew enough for an immersion class to be somewhat helpful, but a lot of those kids were starting from near zero, and it felt hopeless to try to teach them in English only.

[irae]

Originally posted by Daoloth
<hijack> What are some organizations that employ native English speakers to go to foreign countries and teach total immersion classes? </hijack>

You can line up work ahead of time if you're nervous about finding a job, but IME, just showing up in Korea or Taiwan (possibly even Japan) is the way to go. You experience the adventure of working it out on your own rather than being led around. You're also likely to negotiate better pay and other contract terms if you're in-country. One of the best resources for ESL/EFL teachers on the web is www.eslcafe.com

[Astroboy14]

The following is a true (supposedly) story related to me by a friend also teaching English here. He spoke no Korean, and decided it would be a good idea to learn some, so he registered for a class.

(Scene: First day of Korean class... enter my friend; he sits. The teacher enters the room, writes a syllable in Korean on the board, and points to my friend.)

Teacher: You! Read this!

Friend: Err...

Teacher: Come on! You can do it.

Friend: Err... No, I can't...

Teacher: Yes you can! You must try^*!

Friend: I don't know the alphabet.

Teacher: You must TRY!

Friend: Fish? Book? Desk? (a few other guesses)

Teacher: You are not TRYING!


My friend didn't bother going to class the next day...

^* A little explanation may be in order: The Korean alphabet was first invented by King Se-Jeong, who drew what he felt were shapes representing the position of the tongue and throat when making each of the sounds in the Korean language... some Korean teachers apparently feel that he did SUCH a good job that anyone can look at a Korean letter and instinctively understand what sound that is supposed to represent... trust me, you can't!

[Astroboy14]

After posting that, I feel I must hasten to add that all of the Korean teachers I have had were excellent (and some quite HOT as well, but I digress)... my friend had just run across a particularly bad teacher!

No Korean teachers were harmed in the making of this post...

[Leechlord]

Well, i learned English for like 5 year before, i was rlly sux at it. then my dad got transfered to HK so i go to International school, a bad one cuz i can't speak eng lish good. After 1 1/2 year i moved to one of the best international school in HK cuz i improved a lot in English, so i guess if u keep using 1 language, u'll learn better & faster.

[YiBaiYuan]

Daoloth, try this address:
http://www.tefl.com/

[DMark]

I taught ESL for almost 15 years.
When you have a class with students from Germany, Turkey, France, Italy and Spain....well, there is no way you can "cheat" and translate a new word.
It worked just fine.