Is Common Wisdom post 9-11 Actually 'Wise'?

Partially inspired (if that’s the right word) by this Pit thread, I’ve decided to offer for debate two very popular American ideas that have come to the fore since September 11, 2001. Although I strongly considered writing a BBQ Pit OP, I decided that the questions I want to ask deserve serious answers, and the answers deserve serious consideration. Having been shown in this forum the error of various other opinions I’ve held, I admit that it’s possible this time as well. So I will refrain totally from insulting language in this thread, even in response to same. I do expect some vehement responses, as the subject is emotionally loaded and the questions are intended to be provocative. (Provocative of thought, not anger; this is not a trolling expedition.) Hopefully, however, name calling and divisive drive-by insults can be kept to a minimum.

First Questionable Principle

Beginning immediately after the attacks of September 11, it became unlikely that any mention of historical anger at the US in any discussion of terrorism would fail to be met with an accusation of ‘blaming America’ or of sympathizing with the terrorists. One could hardly begin to suggest temperance in our response without being reminded of ‘5000 dead Americans’ (the commonly believed figure in those first few awful days), or being told that ‘the terrorists’ would only understand brutal force and any vacillation on our part would be perceived as weakness.

Although the reflexive reduction of emergency situations into basic moral equations is an understandable part of grief, shock and anger, and often a useful survival trait in people, this immediate black & white way of viewing the world tends usually, in my experience, to be replaced with more nuanced thinking after the first blush of rage and fear has been replaced with resolute anger. One has come to expect a narrowing of targets, a restriction of retaliatory efforts and, most importantly, a shift from a reflexive point of view toward a more reflective one. In the case of America post 9/11, we’ve definitely seen the first and second shifts, in various degrees within different theaters of operation, but there has been much popular resistance to the last shift.

In fact, as the first anniversary of the despicable attacks approaches there are cries of outrage against attempts to place American response into a global context, or to tie the attacks to messages of tolerance and respect for different cultures. Such attempts have been deemed ‘inappropriate’ and ‘shameful’ by pundits and politicians across the political spectrum. Popular opinion seems to be that only recognition of American heroes or celebration of American strength of will are acceptable additions to national mourning for the victims of 9/11. No reminders of past mistakes or misdeeds are acceptable when connected with 9/11, even as lessons in productive response, even when put in the context of American ideals, and even when accompanied by clear-eyed identification and condemnation of the perpetrators.

So my first series of questions is in regard to the ‘common wisdom’ that discussions of tolerance, presentations of Arab or Muslim points of view, and especially historical examples of American actions which could be viewed by some parties with antipathy are off-limits in relation to the September 11 attacks specifically and in some cases the ‘War on Terror’ in general.

Part 1, first question: What do proponents of this approach consider mutually exclusive about the condemnation of terrorism and the understanding of its roots?

Part 1, second question: What makes discussion of productive responses to terror an inappropriate part of September 11 remembrances? Followup: If some discussion of response is appropriate, why must it not contain or criticize historical American policies, and why must it not include condemnation of bigotry or scapegoating of Muslim Americans?
Second Questionable Principle

In his first public comment on September 11, President George W. Bush described the attacks as ‘acts of war’. He made little mention at that time whether this characterization would be qualified depending on the involvement of a particular state; however, his later pronouncements made clear that he considered America in a state of war with or without an identified state sponsor and would take measures based on that consideration.

Since that day, common agreement has been that US efforts against terrorism, however loosely defined, do in fact constitute a ‘war status’ for the nation. A considerable commonality also exists among Americans of the opinion that the conduct of this war legitimately affords the executive branch of government extraordinary domestic powers. Almost universally among American media outlets, the term “War on Terror’ has been used uncritically to describe not only US military activities in pursuit of al Qaeda, detention of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay and participation in the Philipines, but also the internal activities of the Justice Department in its prosecution and detention of individuals.

My second series of questions, then, pertain to the perception that efforts to combat terrorism and bring terrorists to justice can best be accomplished through declared warfare, rather than through international law enforcement abetted where necessary by military action.

Part 2, first series: By declaring war on ‘terrorism’, do we follow international rules of war, giving default ‘state’ status to all terrorist organizations? Or just to the State Dept.’s list of designated terrorist organizations? Or to none of them? Follow up: If we recognize any terrorist organization as a war opponent, do we then accept the leadership of this organization as a legitimate governing body, capable of offering terms? Is bin Laden or his successor a legitimate head of state? How are terms of war and peace to be drawn? Do we accept cease-fires from al-Qaeda? Would we accept or trust a surrender from bin-Laden or his successor to hold for the entire organization?

Part 2, second series: If a particular terrorist organization such as al Qaeda successfully carries out an attack on a US military vessel, similar to the USS Cole, is this now a legitimate act of war? Is it a war crime, and if so on what grounds? It it a crime in the civil sense, and if so on what grounds? What about suicide attacks on ‘strategic’ targets; are these prosecutable as war crimes, and again on what grounds?

Part 2, third series: Must captured terrorists be treated as prisoners of war under the Geneva conventions, instead of being prosecuted as criminals? If not, what makes them different from other war combatants? If all terrorists are ‘unlawful’ combatants, then how can a lawful war be conducted? If some terrorists are ‘lawful’ combatants, how do we differentiate, since we’re using their membership in the terrorist organization as their political identity, rather than their country of citizenship or their geographical location? If ‘unlawful combatants’ are identified, how can they not be subject to due process?

Part 2, last series: In what way or ways can the ‘war on terror’ be undeclared? When is it over, and how do we know?
I invite all who believe in the proscription of certain subjects when associated with the September 11 attacks or the memorials, or who support the concept of a ‘war on terror’ to respond.

There is, IMO, a difference in tieing messages of tolerance to 9/11, e.g., teaching that we should not blame all Muslims or Arabs for the 9/11 attacks, and the leftists’ refrain that “America had it coming,” as if American policies had provoked Osama bin Laden’s response. The first action of the antiglobal protestoers was to foster a (thankfully abortive) antiwar movement, as if America were the aggressor. I find that despicable.

gobear, can you provide a cite for what you mean by the leftists’ refrain? As far as I know, no domestic anti-war efforts were based on the proposition that “America had it coming.” If that was the stated reason for any particular domestic protests, could you also tell me why the same disgust for those protestors is merited by those who were against military response on other grounds?

—As far as I know, no domestic anti-war efforts were based on the proposition that “America had it coming.”—

There were, however, plenty of conservtive commentators that lied about various leftists claiming this. Heck, a story in the Washington Times just recently did it to the NEA, boldly misquoting an essay that was one of many linked to off the site.

There’s a big difference between people who think that U.S. foriegn policy was irresponsible and led to the attacks, and actually thinking that the U.S. deserved to be attacked (which is what “had it coming” suggests). Heck, even conservative commentators make the former sort of arguements all the time when they criticize Clinton’s failed attempts to get Osama.

Difficult to argue this, Xeno. As I see it, it’s a matter of discerning where a person’s real passions and priorities are. You will no doubt agree in principle that there is such a thing as a “yeah, but…” paying of lip-service to some position you feel you cannot successfully deny fully, as a means of getting clearance to push for your real agenda, which leans in the opposite direction. Judging whether this is the case in a given instance is difficult to do on a purely objective basis and possibly impossible to prove. In general, I guess there’s probably a sense of how frequently and strongly a person supports a given position, as opposed to "yeah, but"ing it.

In this case for example, George Bush has spoken out pretty forcefully against discrimination against Muslims, but he hasn’t been accused of being anti-American. This because he has made clear by other words and deeds that he is not so. Someone whose primary focus of 9/11 is on non-discrimination issues would be judged differently.

Matter of opinion, really.

IzzyR, why would someone whose primary focus is on non-discrimination be judged more harshly?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by xenophon41 *
Part 1, second question: What makes discussion of productive responses to terror an inappropriate part of September 11 remembrances?

IMHO, I’d want that day to go as smooth as possibly. And I’d like to get the thought of War out of my head for at least one day, but again that’s just IMHO. :slight_smile:

As much as I have grown to dislike “Dubya”, he, and his administration played the first part of this “war on terror” pretty smart. They did take a stance on the issue of discrimination. Bush plainly said that it was wrong. After that, he climbed in the cockpit and set the wheels in motion. THe point I’m getting at is that Bush took command of things after that. I think that’s what the majority of the country’s citizens were looking for. A leader in panicked times. But, as always, that’s just IMHO.

Organizations can’t be states. But, that hasn’t stopped the “War on Drugs”. It’s a bit of a scratchy question, and I’m anxious to see the outcome in the following weeks, months, etc.

I’m doubting it. Although Dubya did start the wagon in motion, the wheels are going to come flying off, and it won’t be pretty. That’s the political toughspot that Bush could face. I seriously doubt Osama would “surrender”, but should he try, it’s a possibility that the world wouldn’t like it too much if we shunned him away, and kept bombarding him…again, that’s IMHO.

Never. I’d bet money on it.

Because it is one issue arising from the 9/11 incident, and thus may be compared to other issues arising from the same incident. People have a sense of how much importance each of these issues has, and can sense how much importance others are giving to each as well. In this instance people, in comparing the scale of the actual 9/11 tragedy and the level discrimination that has arisen as a result, may judge the 9/11 events themselves and the resulting war on terrorism to far outweigh, in terms of importance, the discrimination issues. So someone who is primarily focused on the latter would be thought of as being insufficiently caring about the terrorism angle and insuffiiently committed to the struggle. Of course, this may be wrong in many instances, as I’ve alluded to earlier, but it will probably be correct as regards the big picture.

Discrimination was only an example, BTW. The same would apply to someone who is inordinately focused on “the root causes of terrorism” as well. And so on.

I had a really long response and the hamsters ate it. Stupid server. Let’s try it again.

Please explain to me the difference? If there is more than a razor’s width of difference between “American foreign policy led to the attacks” and “American foreign policy caused the attacks,” the subtlety escapes me.

My pleasure.

Michael Moore, “Bush, the CIA and the Roots of Terrorism,” Online essay

Susan Sontag, The New Yorker, Sept 24, 2001

[quote]

And of course, the charges that the search for bin Laden in Afghanistan was a racist war started by Dubya, and theat the US government conspired to bomb the WTC to launch a war against the Taliban so it could take over an oil pipeline.

I could go on, but the server (and my stomach) can’t take it.

Christopher Hitchens’ response to the leftist apologists for Islamofascism echoes my own:

Xeno, I fear you’ve launched an impossible thread, just in posing the question(s) you used up more verbiage than most posters commit in a month. Each of the major headings and most of the subsets are worthy of thier own tangent/rant. This isn’t opening a can of worms, this is a boxcar.

I commend your tolerant and reasonable request from Gobear for cites as to the “leftist refrain”. A lesser man might have responded along the lines of “OK, you rabid little war-monger, put up or shut up!” To your credit, you are above such.

I think your attempt to reason intelligently about the definition and nature of “war”, however, is pointless. It isn’t a “War on Terror” because of international law, or moral equivalences, or even Congressional procedures. Its a “War on Terror” because its a pompous and self-righteous sound bite.

It is useful precisely because it excites bloodlust and war fever, without requiring definitions and goals. It is useful because it goads Certain Unnamed Morons to crank up that most time honored slur, that those who oppose stupid decisions and pointless atrocity are unpatriotic and dishonorable, even treasonable.

In the first instance, we had the sympathy and cooperation of the vast majority of the world who perceive the 9/11 attack as a senseless and brutal criminal act. We have squandered that, pissed it away. At first, the only innocent victims were our own. And now? How many innocent Afghans, who were no more the enemies of the USA than they were enemies of Sweden, are dead or maimed at our hands? A thousand? Five? Ten?

Here is the measure of our callous brutality: we have no idea. Our dead, our victims, we can tally to the point. The pain of others, equally innocent, is not our concern. Hey, there’s a “War” on.

We shrugged them into thier graves, in order to kill Al-Queda. Did we? We have no idea. Worse, we don’t seem to much give a damn. well, after all, that’s “War”, isn’t it. These things happen, can’t be helped.

Time and again, when the drums start to pound and the bloody shirt is waved, wisdom is stifled. Wisdom is suspect, it has no glorious victories to editorialize about, it has no film clips of vengeful and righteous F-16’s taking off from the stern decks of aircraft carriers.

Had we treated this horror in the manner that it deserved, as a contemptible criminal act worthy of the condemnation of all good people, we might have reaped untold benefits of cooperation and assistance, instead of being forced to proceed by threat and bluster.

Wisdom? What wisdom?

gobear, loathe as I am to defend Moore, who frequently pisses me off with hyperbolic exaggerations and occassional outright lies, the message I get from that September 12th opinion is the same as his summary: “Let’s mourn, let’s grieve and when it’s appropriate let’s examine our contribution to the unsafe world we live in. It doesn’t have to be like this.” Note, that he says “our contribution to the unsafe world” NOT “the terrorists were justified”.

The Sontag quote looks accurate to me. Unless there was a specific statement elsewhere in the article (and apparently you can’t link to New Yorker articles), I can’t see where she said America had it coming. She mentions American policies which are hated by many people in other parts of the world.

I’m not sure what relevance the (some of 'em admittedly loony) opinions on the Indymedia site have to your contention that “blame America” rhetoric is rampant. I didn’t see any stories there that said the 9/11 attacks were justified. Of course, I only skimmed the site, so I may have missed something. If you could be more specific…

Meanwhile, my question remains, in part “If some discussion of response is appropriate, why must it not contain or criticize historical American policies… ?” In the cases of Moore and Sontag, the criticism, whatever else you may think of it, is offered in the context of debate over American foreign policy. I understand questioning the accuracy of the critical points, but I don’t see how it is any less appropriate after September 11.

When we debate things, it rarely leads to consensus or resolution. (cf. abortion debate, gun control, drug war etc.) Whether this is syptomatic of “modern times”, the US or human nature in general, I can’t say.

So, if you can frame the issue in such a way that dissent is impossible, you would be smart to do it.

Is it fair, reasonable or democratic? Nope. Is it tactically effective? Yup.

In the first flush of anger, and as long as the president seemed willing to listen to such concerns privately, I don’t think it was too bad to refrain from public debate. But, with both of those conditions in the past, I think more discussion and debate is needed.

This is an interesting list of questions. I’ll take a whack, although several posters have already expressed my POV better than I could have said it.

Most discussions of “roots” have been bogus. IIRC the first one was Jerry Falwell, who blamed America’s tolerance for homosexuality. Then, there were several on the left; gobear cited some juicy ones. What these cases have in common is that the alleged “roots” are what the speaker happens to believe in.

It’s a matter of what one believes is productive. A huge focus on anti-Arab discrimination is not particularly productive IMHO, since it deals with a nearly non-existant problem. Of course, it can hardly be wrong to focus on tolerance under any circumstances.

A focus on historical American policies is apt to be counter-productive. Falwell actually makes more sense than the leftists. To the degree that al Qaeda hates western values, our tolerance for sexual preference may contribute to his feelings. Tough. I don’t intend to be less tolerant, just to please Osama bin Laden.

Focusing on historical policies that had nothing at all to do with the attack just takes away time and energy from the truly relevant matters.

I think the old rules of war cannot apply. Al Qaeda is not a state, but it’s more than a criminal gang. Note that they had already declared war on us.

I think we will have to feel our way into this struggle and find new rules that are appropriate to it.

As a practical matter, it may be more effective to treat this as war.

As I understand it, the Geneva Convention provides different level of protections to enemy combatants, depending on their status. In any event, we are engaged in a type of “warfare” not contemplated by the Geneva Convention. We really need some new rules.

It’s sort-of declared, since Congress authorized it. I have no idea how we’ll know when it’s over. I expect it to sort of dribble away.

elucidator, I understand your points re: “can of worms” and the usefulness of “war” as a rallying point. However, before I get to that, I’d like to request that you, also, refrain from insulting language, even by implication. However much I disagree with gobear on this subject, he has been no less polite than I, and I’d rather all the responses kept to that spirit. Obviously, I can’t enforce that request, but I’m asking you to honor it.

More in next post.

If I didn’t believe the War was being treated as a literal war by the executive branch, I wouldn’t have phrased the question as I did. I cannot and do not believe the only significance to this war is the rhetorical one.

Re: can of worms. Perhaps I should’ve separated the boxcars. (Too late; I’ll have to live with it.)

This is what everyone is saying, but I can’t find any bulleted reasoning to support the “new type of warfare” assertion. I’m hoping someone, hopefully well versed in international law and/or military strategy, can explain to me why al Qaeda specifically and terrorism in general requires any type of “warfare” versus cooperative police work (including, as I mentioned before, military action where appropriate).

Unfortunately, the OP raises a straw man so large and bloated that it would be a fitting candidate for inclusion in the next Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade.

If the OP thinks I am singling him out for criticism, there was a recent GD debate by someone else on the claim that opponents of government policy post 9/11 were having their patriotism roundly questioned, and I expressed skepticism in that thread based on both my impressions and the absence of supporting evidence. Here, similarly there are no cites to back up the OP’s claim. xenophon “invites all who believe in the proscription of certain subjects” (ostensibly his opponents) to respond. But in the linked Pit thread that’s got him upset, Milo and others (including me) were concerned about selective limitation of discussion about 9/11.

It is also grotesquely strawman-esque to ask wonderingly why it is wrong to condemn bigotry against and scapegoating of Muslim-Americans. I invite the OP to find any Administration spokesman or supporters who have called for bigoted acts against Muslim-Americans. The National Education Association pulled a similar maneuver in its response to criticism about controversial suggestions on its website: “We stand by our belief that the entire Muslim community cannot be held responsible for the actions of Osama bin Laden and the Al-Qaeda terrorists.” (the N.E.A. is actually being criticized for the proposal on its website that classroom discussions omit mention of any group or country having responsibility for the 9/11 terrorist attacks).

In the absence of convincing evidence that there is some sort of mass effort by Administration supporters to stifle discussion and brand opponents as traitors, I’ll add this observation: with the exception of isolated extreme voices on either side of the political spectrum (and the regrettable performance of John Ashcroft before Congress), there has been remarkably little demonizing, considering the seriousness of 9/11 and our quasi-wartime atmosphere. We speak our minds freely. Bigoted/violent acts against Arab-Americans have been minimal. And to paraphrase someone I quoted in the other thread, despite the conviction by a few elements on the Left that there is a vast, repressive Jingoistic Patriotic Reserve just under the surface waiting to be tapped, there is no phantom menace confronting those who speak Inconvenient Truths.

So on Part 1, I believe the OP has failed to make a case. He’s been considerably more civil than in the linked Pit thread, when he characterized his opponents as shouting “Up with America! Down with Knowledge! Up with America!”, but it’s early days. elucidator seems to be setting an altogether different tone.

xenophon’s Part 2 contains some interesting and debatable points. There could be a profitable discussion if the scope were more focused and more documentation provided.

Well, of course, I was speaking theoreticly, you understand. What you might have said. But didn’t, of course, because you are a restrained and civlized goody-two-shoes…

Nah, that won’t fly. You’re right, apologies extended.

Missed this one:

But of course US foreign policy is not all about September 11; it’s about pursuing policies which make America more secure, more influential and more respected in the international community; those are the truly relevant matters. Discussion (not exclusive focus) on past policy is not only appropriate but necessary.

I should add, of course, that in addition to merely refraining from bigotry, a chorus of voices, including those of the current Administration, has called for calm and a clear understanding that there is to be no stereotyping or generalized blame attached to Arab-Americans as a result of 9/11. So everyone has been sounding this theme. No one with any sanity or respectability has suggested otherwise.