Who is "Britannia"?

Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor · #1 09-12-2002, 07:18 PM

Who is Britannia?

I know she's a symbol of the United Kingdom, just as Uncle Sam is a symbol of the USA.

But who is she supposed to be?

Here's a picture of her.

http://www.megagoodstuff.com/images/.../BRITANNIA.jpg

What is the origin of this national symbol?

More data, as well as better images, would be very welcome.

Also, do other nations, like France or Italy have personified national icons?

Celyn · #2 09-12-2002, 07:26 PM

France has "Marianne" and I beleive they update the image every so often, using a well-known actress or model.

Now I don't think "Britannia" is *meant* to be anyone in particular, just a symbol. I can't now recall who was the first model for her, if that is what is wanted - have a feeling it was Frances somebodyorother - will try to check that.

Celyn · #3 09-12-2002, 07:40 PM

OK The model for the image of "Britannia" was Lady Frances Stuart, DUchess of Richmond and Lennox, and (allegedly) a lover of King Charles II.

http://www.britannia.com/history/art...cesstuart.html is adequately interesting but I warn you t is mre aboutFranes Sturart than about Britannia.

Fern Forest · #4 09-12-2002, 07:45 PM

Where does John Bull fit in?

SmackFu · #5 09-12-2002, 10:39 PM

It reminds me of this statue of Boadicea in London.

Chronos · #6 09-12-2002, 10:41 PM

I believe that John Bull is a generic name for a single Englishman, and so might be compared to Yankee Doodle.

Fern Forest · #7 09-13-2002, 12:00 AM

Hmm. And yet he does appear in all those old political cartoons with Uncle Sam himself. Like here and ...

Hmm, I see many of them featuring both J.B. and U.S. but can't find the famous one where John Bull was lazing under an English tree while laissez-faire enabled Uncle Sam and various other national icons were picking its fruit.

This isn't really a hijack but you see I thought that it was John Bull who was England or Britain personified and Britannia that was the spirit of the people personified but I never really studied icons so hoped to toss him into the ring for a more complete explanation.

sirjamesp · #8 09-13-2002, 02:38 AM

John Bull is indeed the "generic Englishman" - he was dreamt up by John Arbuthnot at the end of the 17th century, and is an equivalent to the American Uncle Sam.

Have a look here for a look at John and Sam's interactions through history.

Britannia, on the over hand, is just Britain personified - a symbol a British nationalism, I suppose.

alternative princess · #9 09-13-2002, 02:57 AM

all i know that Brittania and Germania (germanic form of Brittania) were supposed to symbolise the strengths found in those native to Germany and Britain (warrior-like who would crush the agressor)

both were used extensively in WWI propaganda. e.g. "God Punish Britain" with a Aryan-looking Brittania underneath was a popular poster on the homefront in Germany. hope that helps

Squirebob · #10 09-13-2002, 04:50 AM

I would go with the whole spirit of the nation thing. But not in the same way as Uncle sam... he is the personification of the country where as Britania is the spirit.
We tend to see the queen as figure for the nation... 'For Queen and country'

APB · #11 09-13-2002, 05:11 AM

Celyn is correct to say that the usual answer to the question asked in the OP is that she depicts Frances Stuart, Duchess of Richmond and Lennox. There is no doubt that the image was popularised and fixed by John Roettiers' design for the 1672 halfpenny which featured a depiction of Britannia loosely based on the Duchess. Roettiers had first depicted her as Britannia five year earlier on the 'Peace of Breda' medal and there are two other medals, also dated 1667, which also show her in this way.

However, Britannia as the personification of Britain, whether the country or the island, was older and there are a number of pre-1667 depictions in which most of the elements of the later iconography are already present. This is a print from 1652.

http://www.adh.brighton.ac.uk/school...RSE/LMN04.html

As this print illustrates very well (it's the frontispiece to an edition of Selden's Mare Clausum), she has always been particularly associated with the idea of British naval power.

Bromley · #12 09-13-2002, 05:25 AM

Well, she was apparently around in the 2nd century AD:

Quote:

(Romano-Celtic British) Tutelary Goddess. The genia loci of Britain who first appears on the coinage of Antoninius Pius in the 2nd century AD. She became the symbol of the British Empire after being partly syncretized with the war goddess Minerva." See also Brigantia and Brid.

Other support for this:

Quote:

BRITANNIA --- The personification of the British Province. Depicted as a female sitting on a rock, holding a spear and resting arm on shield. Antoninus Pius issued a set of bronze sestertius coins in Rome to be circulated in Britian.

Ancient Impressions Attribution

Jim B. · #13 09-13-2002, 05:34 AM

I realize this isn't MPSIMS, but there is something that I have been wanting to share for a while now. Did you know the U.S. has a female personification too? Her name is "Columbia"--after Christopher Columbus, of course. You used to hear more of her in the past. Here is a statue of her.

I've known of Britannia for some time now. I am an amateur coin collector of sorts, so I've seen her image on British coins from time to time. This penny version of her is the best I think (look at the shamrock, rose and thistle on the bottom--representing Ireland, England and Scotland respectively). You will also notice old coins from England aren't inscribed in English, but Latin. After all, why should they be in English hundreds of years ago--most people couldn't read anyways. People told the value of coins by their size and weight only.

Hope this all has been informative

.

Martiju · #14 09-13-2002, 05:48 AM

Indeed, current coins are inscribed in latin too - at least, the 1 Pound coin is 'decus et tutamen' or 'honour and protect'.

jjimm · #15 09-13-2002, 06:10 AM

Nitpick: "Decus et Tutamen" means "An ornament and a safeguard" according to The Royal Mint.

smiling bandit · #16 09-13-2002, 10:23 AM

Quote:

John Bull is indeed the "generic Englishman" - he was dreamt up by John Arbuthnot at the end of the 17th century, and is an equivalent to the American Uncle Sam.

While John BUll and Uncle SDam may be used for similar things, the meaning of Uncle Sam, I think, sounds FAR closer to Brittania. Thats what I'm getting off of this board. Uncle Sam personifies America, but not just "Joe Average".

Is this nhow it comes off to you too?

yabob · #17 09-13-2002, 11:20 AM

John Bull was "The Generic Englishman" in the context of Arbuthnot's pamphlets. As a symbol, however, he rapidly mutated into something very close to "Uncle Sam", sprouting the Union Jack vest. Most contemporary uses of the character are as a personification of the nation of Great Britain, not of a typical citizen. A person not aware of the history is certainly going to think of "John Bull" in those terms.

Acsenray · #18 09-14-2002, 07:49 AM

Usually, Uncle Sam is used to personify the federal government.

Fear Itself · #19 09-14-2002, 10:49 AM

I always thought she was the goddess of weather; you know,"Hail, Brittania!"...

yabob · #20 09-14-2002, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fear Itself
I always thought she was the goddess of weather; you know,"Hail, Brittania!"...

Long may she rain ...

Muad'Dib · #21 09-14-2002, 02:22 PM

I always thought she was supposes to be an anglicized Athena.

suk4u · #22 08-09-2012, 05:39 AM

britannia is the female personification of britain
her trident shows the naval power of britain and over time she is represented in many ways as a symbol of power and as a goddess of britain. she was used in coins too until 2008 under charles II.
you ca read more at wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia

suk4u · #23 08-09-2012, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muad'Dib

I always thought she was supposes to be an anglicized Athena.

her statues were slightly based on athena and goddess minerva
but there are other sculptures of hers.

suk4u · #24 08-09-2012, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yabob

Long may she rain ...

she represents naval power that is why they generally say that

Darth Panda · #25 08-09-2012, 05:57 AM

Interesting, but this thread is a decade old...

<insert zombie joke here>

DrFidelius · #26 08-09-2012, 06:05 AM

I have been wanting to open a chain of shops specializing in imports from the United Kingdom. I would call them "Britomart," have a female knight as a mascot and see if anyone gets it.

Malden Capell · #27 08-09-2012, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martiju

Indeed, current coins are inscribed in latin too - at least, the 1 Pound coin is 'decus et tutamen' or 'honour and protect'.

It means 'an ornament and a safeguard' actually

Hello Again · #28 08-09-2012, 08:14 AM

Brittania's US equivalent is not "Uncle Sam", it's Columbia. The female personification of the United States as a whole.

"Uncle Sam" is the personification of the U.S. government.

Erdosain · #29 08-09-2012, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjimm

Nitpick: "Decus et Tutamen" means "An ornament and a safeguard" according to The Royal Mint.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malden Capell

It means 'an ornament and a safeguard' actually

Ninja'ed by 10 years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrFidelius

I have been wanting to open a chain of shops specializing in imports from the United Kingdom. I would call them "Britomart," have a female knight as a mascot and see if anyone gets it.

English majors, yes.

Acsenray · #30 08-09-2012, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hello Again

Brittania's US equivalent is not "Uncle Sam", it's Columbia. The female personification of the United States as a whole.

"Uncle Sam" is the personification of the U.S. government.

Apparently, I agree!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acsenray

Usually, Uncle Sam is used to personify the federal government.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chronos

I believe that John Bull is a generic name for a single Englishman, and so might be compared to Yankee Doodle.

"Yankee Doodle" isn't a personification of anything, at least not in any contemporary understanding. It's the title of a song. "Yankee" is a nickname/epithet for some group of people (which group varies according to your point of view) and also isn't a personification of anything. I don't know whether it might have been at some point in the past, though.