A few weeks back, I was hearing a report on NPR that the origin of Petroleum is inorganic (Limestone reacting with water under high geo temp/pressure) rather than organic (decaying dinosaurs/forests inside earth).
Whats the straight dope on this ?
Hey Andy. I asked a similar question a few weeks back. I only got a very few answers. Hopefully you’ll get more.
From here:
We should mention that while a few renegade scientists claim that petroleum has an inorganic origin, the conventional wisdom, as presented above, is pretty convincing:
We can watch organic sediments accumulating at the bottom of the ocean.
Many chemicals in crude oil have a structure characteristic of molecules with organic origins.
Hopanes, a group of hydrocarbon molecules found in petroleum, are made by bacteria, Kettler notes.
Petroleum may also contain molecules of waxes that land plants use to prevent drying, and many markers of its biological origin.
Does anyone have a cite? I would prefer to read the original argument over a “I seem to remember hearing”. Without knowing the basis for the claim it is rather difficult to answer. For instance, how do they explain the removal of the calcium? And most limestones I am familiar with were built from the remains of sea creatures, so they have a biological origin as much as does coal.
Well, Thomas Gold has been around for decades with his ideas about abiogenic methane, but I think the recent buzz you might’ve caught would be in regard to J. F. Kinney and his not at all well regarded by those of us who look for the stuff for a living ideas about mechanical origins of hydrocarbons. IIRC, he places the minimum depth of origin at 100 km. He works under the name Gas Research Corporation in Houston, if you’d care to search.
Interesting idea - but where do all the correct chemical elements come from - Carbon - Hydrogen - Sulphur - Nitrogen and a few others. They ain’t in Lime-stone and so either have been spontaneously generated ( WOW that God guy is a real trickster) or they come from something like Kerogen http://www.glossary.oilfield.slb.com/Display.cfm?Term=kerogen
There is a very interesting point that is found when you drill for Petroleum or other hydrocarbon recourses underground – the petroleum bearing layers still hold Kerogen and it’s remnants and when you do a bit of interesting chemistry the chemicals all add up.
Sorry, but I think the piece you report on spontaneous generation of petroleum from lime-stone and water is Bunkum!!!
Wow. Did you really say, ‘bunkum’?
That is so cool.
And of course, inorganic origins for the postulated petroleum would require a lot of limestone of inorganic origin.
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Hmmm Limestone is Calcium carbonate (lots of carbon there) and water is H2O (lots of H there). There is lots of Sulfur underground (ever been near a volcanic springs?) and lots of nitrogen in the air. So in principal the elements are around. Interestingly there is lots of methane associated with volcanic gases.
see http://people.cornell.edu/pages/tg21/usgs.html for a detailed and rather dated presentation by Gold on his side of the theory
Here is the cite sir http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/2002/Aug/hour1_082302.html. Hope that satisfies you. There’s also a book by the same person - also shown in the cite.
As far as I remember, human body is around 80% water. I assume this may be the case with animals/plants too (?). If that is the case, it will take incredibly large number of animals and plants to make the vast reserves of oils we have. Moreover, all these animals and plants have to be at the same place at the same time to be buried miles below the surface and then decay and form petroleum.
The presense of Animal Fat (or protein etc.) in petroleum does not prove that all the oil is of animal origin. It may just mean that some animals fell into it. (Correct me if I wrong).
bloomingpouf
Limestone is CaCO3. SO carbon is there. Hydrogen comes from water. Sulfur from Inorganic rocks (Iron Pyrites, Copper Pyrites, Zinc Pyrites, etc. ) Nitrogen (Not much is there in Petroleum except for the amines) maybe from (Rock Salt NaNO3, or the like).
Also, the author claims that it is thermodynamically impossible to convert bio-carbon to Higher Hydrocarbon - Any Physicists want to challenge that ?
I am not convinced with all the authors arguments, but would like a greater discussion 
My Dear Boy
I know where to find the elements - the point is that they all need to be in the same place at the same time to make Petroleum.
The elements all need to be very patient as well and Mr Nitrogen can’t leave to seek a new Atmosphere just ‘cos he’s bored and does not like Mr Hydrogen!
If you know anything about petroleum you will know that Volcanic Zones and petroleum don’t mix - so the sulphur argument is a bit of a smelly red herring and fails to address the incidence of Sulphur Dioxide and sulphur based acids that always occur with Petroleum.
There are of course not just petroleum products in the ground but a whole mix of things. So where does the cyanide and derivatives come from as well as the Nitrous groupings and acids!
Kerogen explains it all - spontaneous generation of Petroleum may look good on an Exxon Advert - but it’s not real! Magic and Petroleum don’t mix - Magic is slight of hand and Petroleum usually involves slight of hand to hide the bribery, corruption and environmental impact - they aint the same!
Oh and by the way – I was working on the Oil Reserves in Kazakistan back in 1994 - http://www.eni.it/english/mondo/asia/kazakistan.html Magic and Petroleum don’t mix.
Your arguments are good. But you do not prove it conclusively that petroleum is of Organic Origin !!
My Dear Boy
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My Dear Old Man
I know where to find the elements - the point is that they all need to be in the same place at the same time to make Petroleum.
So do a lot of animals and plants need to be in the same place at the same time !!! Its a lot more likely to find iron ore, a few minerals, water and limestone in a same place rather than a million animals.
The elements all need to be very patient as well and Mr Nitrogen can’t leave to seek a new Atmosphere just ‘cos he’s bored and does not like Mr Hydrogen!
What are you trying to say here ?? Nitrogen can come from nitrates. Or if trapped from air can react with H2 ( from water) and form ammonia. Ever hear of the Haber’s process ?
If you know anything about petroleum you will know that Volcanic Zones and petroleum don’t mix - so the sulphur argument is a bit of a smelly red herring and fails to address the incidence of Sulphur Dioxide and sulphur based acids that always occur with Petroleum.
What have volcanoes to do with it ?? Maybe the active ones dont have the required pressure inside for the conversion.
- There are of course not just petroleum products in the ground but a whole mix of things. So where does the cyanide and derivatives come from as well as the Nitrous groupings and acids!*
Ask any Chemistry major who has done organic analysis in the lab. If you heat some sodium metal, some charcoal and any nitrogen source you get cyanides (this is known for more than a century!!). Nitrous and acids are oxidation products of these.
Nitrous and acids AS WELL AS METHANE (or natural GAS) is found on other planets too (Mars for e.g.). !!
- Kerogen explains it all - spontaneous generation of Petroleum may look good on an Exxon Advert - but it’s not real! Magic and Petroleum don’t mix - Magic is slight of hand and Petroleum usually involves slight of hand to hide the bribery, corruption and environmental impact - they aint the same!*
What is spontaneous about this ??? Petroleum can be synthesized from Steam and Carbon. Everyone knows that !! Fisher- Tropsh for example. Except that its not economical unless Geothermal energy is doing it.
*Oh and by the way – I was working on the Oil Reserves in Kazakistan back in 1994 - http://www.eni.it/english/mondo/asia/kazakistan.html Magic and Petroleum don’t mix. **
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How does your working in a Oil Reserve prove that Magic and Petroleum don;t mix ??? And btw what are considering as Magic ?
I wish there was someone more knowledgeable who can either prove or disprove this scientifically rather than bring in magic and all such mumbo-jumbo.
Me Dear Boy
I was pointing to the fact that Petroleum synthesis on the scale required to produce the reserves we have now does take both time and energy. The energy is in the form of heat and pressure. This has to be balanced. Active Volcanic zones have a pressure and heat profile that is TOO HIGH for petroleum Synthesis. That is why you do not find Petroleum in Volcanic zones.
I’m well aware of Chemical processes and how they work – and even remember the squeaky pop of hydrogen from my first school days. I don’t believe that all squeaky pops are caused by Hydrogen combustion, unless you want to claim that all Sparkling wine is adulterated with Hydrogen Gas ???
The Answer to Geologic Petroleum Synthesis, is not just a matter of a few chemical equations but requires a bit of geology - physics and chemistry – oh and time. You and others seem to have the view that all Organic material trapped geologically ends up as Petroleum. Kerogen is found in most Sedimentary rock in varying degrees and concentrations. Only a tiny percentage of trapped organic material ends up in petroleum!
If you want spectacular and dramatic demonstrations - just bung a few chemicals in a Jar, zap it with Ultraviolet and a electrical discharge or three for a number of days or weeks and you will end up with all the proverbial building block for life as we know it! Then just be a bit patient and wait and see if you have a Creature or two crawling from your bottle of Protoplasmic Crud!
Get back to me in a Billion years or so and let me know what wisdom has evolved! And let me know the percentage of the Protoplasmic crud that ends up leading to sentience. I bet that it is tiny in deed! Will you give me odds that are worth waiting round to collect on???
Oh ……and the amount of organic material created during the pre-life stage of old mother earth also has joined the world or Kerogen – so it’s not just bits of dead fly or reptile that have been converted to Petroleum, there is the whole planetary history of organic chemistry to consider too!
It is funny when folks point at the methane reserves in the sea bed world wide and just forget where they would have to have some from…. They are not all from outer space!
Magic is that which any fool can not explain - wisdom is the correct application of knowledge in the moment!
It’s J.F. Kenney Gas Resources Corporation (sorry - I was going from memory this morning) that you heard on NPR. He claims to have demonstrated abiotic genesis of petroleum using just water, iron oxide and calcium carbonate. He also claims that no alkanes other than methane can come into existence at depths of less than 100 km (that’s ~328,000’). I guess he came up with that because he chooses to ignore all but abiotic origins of petroleum.
I didn’t pay a lot of attention to him, but a couple of his remarks set off my bullshit detector. I’ll have to paraphrase because I don’t have a transcript (Kenney in italics):
“Do you know what the oil industry’s success rate for drilling commercial wells without seismic is? 1 out of 28! They’re doing no better than if they let a child throw darts at a map!”
And he went on to explain, with the confidence of someone who feels that they’re talking above their audience, that this dismal success rate can be blamed on our foolish belief in the biogenesis of hydrocarbons. This is bullshit. First, a seemingly minor detail; nobody drills much of anything without seismic anymore. That’s one of those con man qualifiers. I don’t know how he came up with that number - I don’t know of anybody who’s tracking that.
Secondly, even if his hypothesis did explain the origins of hydrocarbons, nobody’s drilling to 328,000 feet. One way or another, he’s still stuck with drilling for porous, permeable reservoir quality rocks with trapping geometry much (much, much) closer to the surface, just like the rest of us.
He had also said that he liked to, “Ask the conventionally minded explorationists just how much oil they’ve found using their methods!” and left it there, I guess to imply that we’d be left unable to respond. Well, if he’d like to ask me that, I’ll be glad to show him several oil and gas fields I’ve discovered. That’s not the point, though. At the end of the show a caller turned that question on him. His reply was merely, “In recent years we’ve done very well in the Dnieper-Donets Basin.”
Period. No detail whatsoever. I can’t find anything that indicates anything out of the ordinary has transpired in the Dnieper-Donets Basin in recent years. A USGS report (requires Acrobat) describes “normal” source rocks in that Basin.
I dunno dirt about this stuff - my closest qualification is the oil royalty checks my wife gets from her father’s estate (he used to look for the stuff).
But I do read Astronomy magazine. They recently (w/in 3-4 months) had an article about finding hydrocarbons in outer space, and some ideas about how maybe they could have come together in the formation of the earth.
( I didn’t do a search, but maybe look for “hydrocarbons” over at Astronomy.com)
But even the writers thought the hypothesis that earthly petroleum once came from outer space was pretty “far out”…