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#1
12-20-2002, 08:49 AM
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All video games should have an easily accessible "god" mode in them.
Well I typed up a long OP and hit a button by accident and deleted it so I will make this short and sweet.
I think all games should have a toggle, that is not hidden, that does not have to be unlocked, that will open up every facet of a game to its owner immediately. I believe that I should not be denied finding out the rest of the story in a game just because I can't get past a guard or make a diffcult jump. If I paid $50 for it I should not be denied any features of the game. I am stuck in Splinter Cell right now and am just too busy to keep trying over and over in this one level. I am a casual gamer and I enjoy the story and am too old to brag to my friends about beating a video game. I want to know the rest of the story but will not because I can't get past a guard without setting an alarm off. IMHO my $50 is not being recouped because of this. The game is great, no doubt about it, but a comsumer should not be denied every benifit of a product that they pay for. Someone who does not want to use god mode does not have to and can enjoy the game playing the normal way. The only exceptions to this rule I think should be for MMORPG or any online multiplayer games where one person has an advantage over another due to god modes. In single player games there is no loser if the player wants to use god mode. It should be thier choice. So, I think that there should be an option that turns on god mode in every single player game availible. It should not be hidden and should not be "unlockable". If others can't exercise the self control neccessary to not use god mode if they don't like it then that is there problem. Anyone else have a veiw point on this? 
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#2
12-20-2002, 09:06 AM
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Yep, and those bar puzzles made from wood and iron or whatnot should come with pliers. Crossword puzzles should have the words pre filled in. The net at the local park should be lowered to 9' so I can dunk behind my back.
Whew! These debates of cosmic importance really take it out of you.
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#3
12-20-2002, 09:17 AM
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My son has a Game Shark cheat device (and some other ones, not sure what they're called). He keys in all thses codes for unlimited power, or weapons, or free dental care or some other goddamn thing. Seems to take away the point, but at least he's not running a meth lab instead or something (wait......what's that smell?)
__________________
tubadiva didn't like my old name - so I changed it!
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#5
12-20-2002, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
If I am into a story on a video game then why shouldn't I be able to see it to completion just because I am not twitchy enough to make the jump or "get the power up"?
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#6
12-20-2002, 09:50 AM
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I totally agree. For me, the game in question is Grant Theft Auto 3.
I admit freely that I don't really play the game in order to complete the levels. I just run around hitting people and stealing cars. I like it - it's fun just driving around like a freakin' maniac! (In a game setting, of course.) But it'd be great if I could just have access to the other island that you apparently get to move to once you've completed more levels. I mean, heck, when Doom first came out I spent at least 90% of the time in God mode with All Weapons because it was SO MUCH FUN! Back then it was easy to get into these cheat modes. Another question though: If they put this God Button straight onto the Controller, what would it look like? Peace out.
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#7
12-20-2002, 09:51 AM
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That's what I liked about Deus Ex. There were usually two or three ways to deal with any obstacle: frontal assault, tricky fighting, electronic mojo or just plain sneakiness. If something wasn't working, you could usually find some other way.
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#8
12-20-2002, 09:53 AM
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I don't think so. Buy a movie if you don't want the challenge.
I don't doubt there's a built in cheat mode. It will surface.
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#9
12-20-2002, 10:12 AM
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Near the sarcasm armour there's an entrance to the IMHO level.
Unless there's a theological point here that I'm missing, in which case GD it is. If satisfaction is found in becoming rather than being, does that mean "full ownership of the game" is meaningless unless one is eternal as well as omniscient? Quote:
Quote:
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#11
12-20-2002, 10:27 AM
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I’ve never bought a game only to find, “Doh! I’m not invulnerable.” You purchase any of those items, including the basketball and puzzles I mentioned, with full knowledge that they are meant to present a challenge.
To take this a bit more seriously for a moment (and only for a moment) game developers may have good reason to believe that if an element of challenge is removed from the game, it is a less satisfying experience, and therefore less marketable. I don’t often see reviews exclaiming, “Two in-opposable thumbs up! This game is so easy I finished it in twenty minutes.”
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#12
12-20-2002, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
"i PWneD YoU, dUd3! E4T kw33N of 5Pade5 D3@TH!"
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#14
12-20-2002, 10:40 AM
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Cheat codes are a bad Idea IMO. Those built in and are easily accessible anyhow. In my gaming past, there had been countless times when I put blood, sweat and time in beating a game, and was damn proud of the accomplisment. When I would comment on it, there was undoubtedly some jerk off saying that it was no big deal, he beat it easily. (with cheat codes)
 I am appalled that so many people want the easy way out, because they don't have "time". This isn't just a debate about video games IMO, this is taken further. People want to lose weight without taking the time and trouble, people want to be good at sport without the time it takes to practice, want their black belts without the 20 years to master it, the list goes on and on. I don't know if this is an American phenomenon, but I wouldn't doubt it. I have cheated at my share of games. I have blasted my way through doom, wolfenstien, half life, et al, by using god mode, and to tell you the truth, it took all the fun out of it. With God mode sitting in front of me, in easy reach; the slightest provocation made me type it in. Pretty soon I just said the hell with it, and played the whole game that way. If they handed out Law degrees and Doctorates to anybody that wanted them, it would make the challenge and difficulty of getting them null. The challenge is beating the odds and acquiring them regardless of how difficult they are. The same goes for sports, video games, bodybuilding, money, etc. If you don't have the time to dedicate to something, for fun or whatever, then DON"T do it. Don't ruin for those that are willing to actually work for it. Don't trivialize life just so you don't have to actually work at it. That is the jerky thing to do, and punishes everybody because only a few are too lazy to put in the effort. If it is easy to get, it isn't worth having, if it is nearly impossible to get, the joy of even almost getting it is enough for me.
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#15
12-20-2002, 10:44 AM
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I believe life should have an easily accessible "god" mode.
But only for me. 
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#16
12-20-2002, 11:36 AM
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I don't care about God mode.
There should, however, be federal legislation requring all games to have in-level saves. -- Dewey, who has been pissed off about this since Dark Forces.
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#17
12-20-2002, 11:50 AM
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Granted, there was that bit of brinksmanship some years back where Bill Gates was going to put Windows 98 in the water supply, but he was backed down. But if the current plans for an airborne version of XP2Plus! go through, Minesweeper should have God mode.
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#18
12-20-2002, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
I'm a senior game designer for Sony. Believe me, within the industry the save/no save and god/no god issues have been at the center of some fierce debates. It's not just developer laziness (or cussedness) that prevents all games from having an easily accesable god mode and in-level saves. Often there's a gameplay reason. Consider saves. There are really two reasons why people save: Either they want to leave the game and come back later, or they want to lock in their progress in case something bad happens. As for the former, sure, let them save anywhere -- no one should have to keep playing just so they can reach a save point. But as for the latter, it gets more complicated. If it's too easy to lock in your progress gameplay can converge on the quicksave-and-creep cycle common in first-person-shooters. Because most of the players are quicksaving their way through the levels, the difficulty level is tuned to support it, meaning lots of death and lots of retries and (IMHO) lots of boredom. It's easy to say "well nobody is forcing you to save", but the truth is that people are weak and if you give them a tool very few individuals can resist picking it up and using it, even if it lessens the play experience. Why does it lessen the play experience? The same reason that people gamble with real money. There's a big thrill that comes from knowing that if you screw up you'll lose something valuable. Choosing when and how the player gets to save is as much a design decision as boss design -- both are about shaping the experience. Back to the OP. The problem isn't that Splinter Cell needs a god mode. The problem is that it's too hard. Providing a god mode would be a cheap fix for a deeper problem. (For the record, on the game I'm working on now we're shooting for 10-15 hrs of play for a novice player to get from start to finish in the story. No god mode but the easy setting will be really easy. The challenge for expert players will come from all sorts of side missions and extra challenges. Anyone should be able to finish in 15 hrs, but finding and unlocking everything will take much longer.)
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#23
12-20-2002, 01:33 PM
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In addition to the (very much valid) reasons that Pochacco mentioned (senior game designer at Sony, eh? Cool. I'm just a junior game designer - how 'bout a job?
 ), there is a marketing aspect to it. If there's a God mode in every game, then every game can be beaten extremely quickly. And if you can finish the game in 5 hours, why buy it? You can just as easily rent it, and see everything the game has to offer. And if fewer people are buying the game, well, then that's less money for those of us who make these things. And personally, I'm rather attached to my job. I think that hidden cheats are fine for most games - they offer the opportunity to take the sissy - er, I mean easy - way out, but it's not something staring you in the face. Trust me, if there's a God mode there in the main options screen, the temptation to use it is awful, even if the game isn't ludicrously difficult. Also, multiple difficulty levels are a great idea for many games, so that the hardcore can challenge themselves, without unnecessarily frustrating the novice. And if you throw in a little extra bonus for beating the game on "hard" (note: unlocking "Really Freakin' Hard" mode is a piss-poor bonus, in and of itself), then that makes the hardcore sect feel all the more special, while lending the game some replay value. Non-long-winded summary: Blatant access to God-mode is bad. Jeff
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#24
12-20-2002, 01:44 PM
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Shortly after Diablo II came out, my son was talking to a friend of his at karate class.
Friend: I just got this cheater program for D2. I can make any level character I want, with any magic items, all skills at max. It's so cool! Son: And what do you ... do ... with this character? First sign of maturity from my preteen son. A memory I shall always treasure (just like, the first book he ever read for informational sake was a player's guide to XCOM).
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#25
12-20-2002, 03:10 PM
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Just a thought, but I believe that things like God Mode in games are the reason that current games are nowhere near as story driven or as fun as the games I played when I was young. (Hey I turned 30 last wednesday, can I use that line legally now?) Ah the wonders of Zork and the original Ultima series. Gamers these days are in such a hurry to see what happens next they have to cheat. What ever happened to having an attention span?
Buliwyf
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#26
12-20-2002, 03:56 PM
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I agree completely with the OP.
Those who want a challenge, want to beat the game on their own etc can choose not to use the cheat mode. I never understand people who want to control how other people play their games. Why not give more choices so that everyone can choose their own preferred method?
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#27
12-20-2002, 04:25 PM
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Games are so much more exciting without God mode on. I've played with it and the main thrill is being able to kill creatures in a number of wildly adverterous ways.
Jump through a wall and knife the main boss to death? Let's roll. Want to bazooka the zombie from point blank range? Yippee ka yay mother fucker. But come on. It makes for some wonderful giggles on the micro level, but taking the game as a whole I'd MUCH rather play without God mode. I'd much rather earn those levels. How exciting can it possibly be knowing you cannot possibly die? I get more fun out of the Smurf Adventures on my CalecoVision. But autosaves are another issue entirely. I was playing Final Fantasy 9 and, at one point, the absolute minimum I could go between saves was 45 minutes. I timed it. Most of that time was spent watching videos that you cannot skip through. 45 minutes is too long.
__________________
Puedo tenerz las hamburguesas conz queso?!?
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#29
12-20-2002, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
However, the sad reality of it is that a lot of us don't always have several hours to devote to each play session. Some of us frequently only have about 20-30 minutes. And for us, having to turn the game off without saving because you really need to go pick up your wife, or because the kid needs his diaper changed, is infuriating. When those are your gameplaying patterns, frequent save points are your friend. You know what I hate? The Resident Evil style of save points, where there is a maximum number of times that you can save, ever. Not only are you hesitant to save - not in and of itself a bad thing - you can end up in a situation where the game is unbeatable, because you've run out of Magic Save Ribbons. Grrr... Jeff
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#30
12-20-2002, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
If you want to bury an option somewhere on the options page that allows the player to select from no in-game saves, a limited number of saves or unliimited saves, and make the default setting no saves, fine. I don't care if you want to bury the option deep in the settings panel. Hell, I don't even care if you make the game call me a galactic pussy for choosing unlimited saves. But give me the option. Because for all this talk of play-balancing, there's no getting around the fact that users are all different. Different people have trouble with different areas. I recall one part of Half-Life in particular: I had to jump through a narrow window into an elevator. Simple, right? Uh-uh. I couldn't get it. I tried around twenty times without luck. Then I started looking for alternative solutions. Then I checked a a walkthrough to be sure I had to jump through this one particular window. So I went back to trying, over and over and over again, until I finally got it. Note that I got through the Xen jumping stuff on the second try. I don't totally suck. Just for whatever reason, this particular jump was not happening for me. If I couldn't save after I completed that jump, I'd have thrown my computer through the window. And I'd bet dollars to donuts that if Half-Life had limited save points, after that jump would not be where the designers would put a save point because none of the playtesters had serious problems with that jump. I can understand if you want to liimit quicksaving; it's may be too easy to tap that F12 key (or whatever). I don't care if you make me exit to a menu. But for God's sake, let me save.
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#31
12-20-2002, 05:16 PM
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I think books should come with Cliff's Notes, unlocking every theme and message of the story. It would also provide a plot summary, in case I get tripped up on some words or a paragraph and need to get through a difficult spot. If I pay money for a book, I shouldn't be denied the full enjoyment of that book. People who want to read the book without the Notes can easily do so. I don't understand why anyone would want to control how other people read their books.
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#32
12-20-2002, 06:16 PM
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Similarly, I think banks are too inconvienent. Going to them and pulling out money before I go to the store is a pain the the arse. I think they should have little bank cards that withdraw money directly out of my banking account. That way when I see something I want at a store, even if it isn't important to me, I can buy it without any hassle. I think it should be the law to have one of these. I mean, if people don't want to spend money on things they don't need, they can just not use their little bank card. If you impulse buy often, you only have yourself to blame.
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#33
12-20-2002, 06:19 PM
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Actually there are several types of books, eg. Shakespeare plays, which come with detailed notes and long introductions which discuss the major themes of the books.
Furthermore with video-games it costs almost nothing to add options which for instance allow players to play any level without finishing earlier levels. And if the cheatcodes are hidden in the software anyway it doesn't cost anything extra to just put them out into the open. And in general I don't think anyone is claiming that adding cheat codes add substantially to the costs of the videogame; they seem to be objecting to them in principle.
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#34
12-20-2002, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Jeff
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#35
12-20-2002, 06:33 PM
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"Well, as I mentioned earlier, it costs the developers when nobody buys games anymore because they can just rent them and finish them in a night with God-mode turned on"
OTOH there might be casual gamers who are turned off by difficult games and don't buy them at all. For instance Stinkpalm may have been turned off by Splinter Cell and may not buy Splinter Cell 2 if it ever comes. If it had a convenient cheat mode he might have enjoyed the game more and been more eager to buy sequels. In any case I was referring to the direct of costs of making the game. What you are referring to is demand which is a separate matter and cuts both ways.
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#37
12-20-2002, 07:14 PM
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For some reason, though, I've always liked games that didn't have in-mission saves, because it's more challenging, and gives a much better sense of risk and acomplishment. And face it, Nethack just wouldn't be the same with quicksave
__________________
Phoenix, lava dragon ""GUNNER, SABOT, SNIPER" is not an appropriate use of ammunition." - Murphy's laws of armored combat
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#38
12-20-2002, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
I totally agree with the OP. My feeling is that if I pay money for something, I should be able to decide how I use it. Who the hell are you, the game author, to decide for me how I want to play the game, or what will bring me the most enjoyment for my money? An earlier poster made an analogy to other games, puzzles, and sports equipment. But the analogy was too narrow. Imagine, if you will, that a basketball is sold with the stipulation that it may only be used in a regulation, five-man basketball game, on a full court. Somehow, the makers have magically made it so that if you try to play a one-on-one game, the ball just won't bounce. "Well," argue the makers, "We believe that in order to get the full play experience, a basketball must be used in a full five-man, two-team game. Anything else just lessens the play experience." Pretty laughable, isn't it? So what makes video games any different? Only that by their very nature, the makers are able to force their will on the buyer, to force the buyer to play the game only in the way that the maker deems "appropriate." You wanna talk about lost revenue? The lack of easy cheats is why I stopped buying games altogether. The last game I bought was the original Tomb Raider. I played for a while, and just lost patience; I'm not a hard-core gamer, I play to pass the time and to be amused. But I really did want to see what was in the rest of the game. So I looked around on the net and found the cheats to get all the guns. I then played the game through to the end. I enjoyed it, and felt that I got my money's worth. But without the cheats, I never would have gotten very far, I would have put the game aside in disgust, and felt that I had been cheated by buying something that I only got a fraction of the total use out of. The bottom line is that the person who pays for the game should be able to decide how he wants to use it and what will give him the most enjoyment for his money. You don't want to cheat, you want the sense of accomplishment of beating the game straight? Great, more power to you. But why shouldn't I have the option to play the game the way I want? You'd be livid if I forced you to use the cheats, why is it ok for you to force me not to? "Because that's the way the game was meant to be played, doofus! If you don't want to play it right, don't buy it!" Yeah, re-read my basketball analogy above, then answer this question: Hypothetically, if the magic existed to make the basketball that only bounces in a full game, would that be ok? You wanna play one-on-one? Sorry, the basketballs just don't work for that, so if you don't want to play a full game, just don't buy a basketball. It sounds so stupid to say that about a basketball, but not about a video game. Why?
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#39
12-20-2002, 07:53 PM
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Don't like it, don't buy it. They are not forcing you to buy or like the game.
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#40
12-20-2002, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
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#41
12-20-2002, 08:09 PM
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Roadfood:
Quote:
And even if that wasn't your reason, it is a good reason not to include cheats. If a game designer feels that adding cheats will cause the people who don't like cheats to stop buying games, then of course they shouldn't add cheats. The game designer wants to make money. It's pretty ridiculous to suggest that they should put cheats in if it will cause them to lose money. Personally, I would have much less desire to play a game if I saw someone tearing through it with cheats. Quote:
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#42
12-20-2002, 08:11 PM
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"I just think it's silly to think that every book should have them"
Yes because adding these things add to the per-unit printing costs of books. Adding some cheat code adds barely adds anything to the per-unit costs of producing a game. In fact they barely add to the fixed cost either especially since the game will already have the cheat codes hidden somewhere. Besides if you get stuck in a game you can't move forward. With a book you can just skip a difficult bit. Your analogy might hold if you couldn't access later chapters unless you finish earlier chapters. In that sense one of the things we want is that games be more like books or DVD's where if you find a particular part boring you can just move forward.
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#43
12-20-2002, 08:11 PM
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The main problem I see is that when there is an easily accessible "god" mode it may become too tempting to use it and cheat when you are stuck. Personally I enjoy the challenge (and reward) of getting past a difficult area that I must work at, a God mode would ruin that for me. Then there is the entire issue that i find most current games too easy to begin with. Now this brings to question perhaps having "god' versions and "non god versions" but of course I don't think any game company would put out that much effort.
So you just have to ask what you want, a computer program or a game?
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#44
12-20-2002, 10:59 PM
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I think a few of the soapbox-standers in here didn't understand the point of my OP. Some very poor and weak analogies have been made to compare to wanting god mode in video games.
I will make my own and hopefully those who didn't "get it" the first time thru the thread will understand my point now. Imagine you are watching a movie, lets say Predator for example. You are watching it on DVD and have never seen it before. You get to the part where Arnold is covered in mud and the Predator is looking right at him. At this point (in fantasy land) you are required to hit the right sequence of buttons on your DVD remote in a small amount of time in order to see what happens to Arnold. If you fail to hit the buttons fast enough, or hit the wrong one, you are forced to go back to the last chapter and watch thru that scene again and make another crack at the button sequence. You fail again, wash, rinse repeat over and over. Now, you bought this movie (game) for the story and you want to see the rest of it but you can't because your thumbs aren't fast enough or your brain isn't fast enough, whatever. So now you have a movie (game) that you bought for the good story and you can't watch the rest of it due to your inability to complete the requirements of the DVD (game). You never get to see that Arnold gets blown to bits by the Predator and his skull is made love to by a pack of wild antelope. Wouldn't it be great if you could set up this DVD so that you go go straight to the chapter to see what happened to Arnold? You did pay for it after all. My point is that there are alot of good games that have good stories now adays and I should not be denied the whole story just because I suck at the game. Especially if I paid for it. I never said that games are more fun, more satisfying, or that they even SHOULD be played using god modes. Sports games and stuff like that really doesn't make sense to have god mode, but maybe some other players wanna see the big graphic endeing when they win the big game or whatever. I am saying that casual gamers, like myself, who want to see the story to completion should have the option.
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#45
12-21-2002, 12:03 AM
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If that's how movies were, and if I knew this going into it, I wouldn't have any reason to complain. If you want a movie get a movie. If you want a game, get a game. What you seem to want is more analogous to requesting that all movies allow user input because you don't always like where the plot is going. That is, it's expecting a standard that applies to one media to apply to another.
It's one thing to say, "I appreciate it when MediaX is more like MediaY." It's another thing entirely to try to make the case that MediaX should always be similar to MediaY in a particular way. I've used god mode in StarCraft: Broodwar to defeat the final level. (I've since beat it without the code.) I sometimes like having the option. But I would never tell a programmer that his game should have one. Maybe it's just me. I hope to be a programmer someday soon. Saying that all games should have a particular feature seems to me like saying all books should have an index. Sometimes it works, sometimes it's unnecessary or even counter productive. I leave that decision up to the author of the book or program.
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#46
12-21-2002, 07:53 AM
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Oh please, who buys a game for the plot. If you want a plot read a book or watch a freaking movie. Games are to PLAY and be challenging. To pass the TIME. You know, the opposite of what you are wanting.
You are asking to take the color out of an orange. The game industry caters to the majority, because that is where the money is. If the game industry thought that they would make more money YOUR way, they would do it. Unfortunately, casual gamers don't buy the most games, so they don't cater to them. If you don't like it, don't buy games, read a frickin book. Be a casual reader. Write your own books, whatever. Just because you spend money on something, doesn't mean it has to be whatever you want. I payed 12k for my car, damnit, I want it to be a viper. Wah, wah.
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#47
12-21-2002, 09:50 AM
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I still haven't read a good reason why I shouldn't be able to save whenever I want to.
As for cheats well, as a member of that apparently loathsome class of casual/ not hardcore player, my question is: Why put them in at all? Cheats are just cheating. (Note: I'm not talking about finding that hard to reach secret door and a whole 'nother place behind it thing. I'm talking about having to put in any type of "code" to "unlock" a different mode of play) Just follow the motion picture model. A hot new game is released, everyone picks it up and loves it- but with no cheats accessible...just straight forward play skill baby! Then after six months or so the "cheats" version comes out with all the cool extra stuff included...kind of like the extended DVD home collectors edition with 18 hrs of footage held back from the original cut. Just like movies, some games will be released with cheats directly...the ones the company doesn't expect to be a blockbuster. They just don't tell anyone and cycle the marketing back through at the six month mark to snag all of those who wait for the "cheat' version to come out. Just a ten minute thought on the matter. I await to be torn limb-from-limb by the gaming loyal .
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#48
12-21-2002, 10:06 AM
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I really don't like the idea of god mode but would like ajustable difficulty levels. I have only seen this is vey few games but in games where there is lots of things to explore I often get into the situation where the diffuculty is too hard to continue or too easy to be interesting (mostly RTS games). Many times a RTS game will start out very easy on 'normal' level but the difficulty will be much harder at the end. ( would like to be able to switch from hard to start with then drop to 'normal' in the middle and possibly easy at the end (when I'm just trying to finnish the thing') with an occational switch to 'even a monkey can do this one' mode.
There is soo much more satifaction using the 'even a monkey can do this one' mode then using god mode. Just my humble O
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#49
12-21-2002, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
You answered your own question. Make your opinions heard by the developers as much as you can, but accept that the creators get to decide what goes in the games; you get to decide which games to buy. That's the dynamic, and that's how it has been for a while now. If you are paying someone to make a game for you, fire them when they don't include god mode; as far as the pre-made games go, find out if they include god mode before you buy them.
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#50
12-21-2002, 01:14 PM
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I play a lot of games, and when I come across a point that takes too many tries to get past, I'm going to cheat past it. The only "gaming experience" I'm cheating myself out of is the chance to play the same scenario over and over and over dozens of times. I'm suppose to like that?
I will never knowingly buy a game without in-game saves or without a cheat mode. I despise having to try the same goddam thing over and over.
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