What the Hell is happening to our women?

[Yorikke]

Mrs. hrhomer and I just got back from seeing "Chicago." Aside from Queen Latifah (overweight but attractive, which seems to be frankly more acceptable for African-American actresses than those of other ethnicities) and Catherine Zeta-Jones (about human-sized), all the female dancers were ridiculously skinny. Renee Zellweger looked like a refugee every time she bared her body, and several times, I actually said "Oh my god!" at the sight of an emaciated background dancer.

I know it's nothing new, but DAMN! I just had to see if anyone else noticed it in this particular film.

And another thing... what the hell is the big deal about this movie? It was OK, though I don't like musicals. My wife loves 'em, and was an actress on the stage for much of her youth, and thought it was OK. Renee Zellweger's name is being bandied about for Oscar contention. That's just crazy - she was good, but no more than that. Queen Latifah was great, though not Oscar-worthy.

hrh

[shy guy]

I noticed it as well. Granted, I paid more attention to the sparse male dancers anyway.

I don't pay attention to Oscar nominations, but if Zellweger or Latifah are nominated, I'll be suprised. It was a good movie, but not that good.

[Broken Doll]

Um, I guess the women are very skinny in this movie because of the era it's portraying? The Flapper era was notorious for it's very skinny women, because that was the fashion back then.

I guess.

[SnugTheJoiner]

Dear hrhomer:

I got the cure for what ails ya:

ABOUT SCHMIDT.

[FranticMad]

Skinny is common in today's images of females. Is it no accident that many male fashion designers and choreographers are, or seem to be, openly gay? I have wondered if they prefer women who resemble young men, i.e. breastless, thin, non-women.

The images of women in that show and our culture may be derived from this preference. Women in fashion and film (WIFAF) might be boyish ideals for gay fascination. So, now we have a generation of women striving to have the bodies of boys (because of fashion) and the breasts of vixens (because they are, after all, female).

[Exapno Mapcase]

Originally posted by Broken Doll
Um, I guess the women are very skinny in this movie because of the era it's portraying? The Flapper era was notorious for it's very skinny women, because that was the fashion back then.

I guess.

It's true that fashions in flapper days were designed for petite women, with small breasts (which were sometimes bound so that they didn't stick out too much) and narrow hips.

But if you look at the chorus lines in early movies, you'll quickly see that there was very little resemblance between them and the elongated, buffed skinniness of today's featured women stars and models. A woman who is five feet and a hundred pounds has a totally different look from a woman who is six feet and a hundred pounds. (While that is a slight exaggeration, it is only slight.) Those extra inches make for wildly different proportions. (I remember an adage that comic book characters are seven heads high while real people were only six heads high. Again, this may be slightly off, but not only are some models approaching these proportions but pictures in ads are manipulated so that bodies are elongated to make them closer to these proportions.)

While a few pictures of women from that era are somewhat close to today's standards - the women who posed nude or semi-nude in the Ziegfeld Follies, for example - the "standard" beauty was much shorter and less curvy, except for the many who would appear to be rather chunky compared to today.

I've astounded at the thinness of any number of women on screen, not just the famous ones like Calista Flockheart and Lara Flynn Boyle but others from Gweneth Paltrow to Jalel Moloney to Maya Rudolph.

This trend may come from our society's fascination with models. I remember that when Elle Macpherson agreed to play nude in Sirens, it was reported that she had to gain 15 or 20 pounds in order to look better naked. This would have been unthinkable in flapper times.

[TGWATY]

In response to a remark or question about her thinness, Calista Flockheart once said something to the effect that if she had the exact same body but with big boobs nobody would be saying anything her being too thin.

Sad but true.

[Walloon]

Originally posted by FranticMad
Skinny is common in today's images of females. Is it no accident that many male fashion designers and choreographers are, or seem to be, openly gay? I have wondered if they prefer women who resemble young men, i.e. breastless, thin, non-women.

Fashion designers and choreographers, gay or straight, do not cast movies or order female stars to adapt themselves to their costumes.

And guess what? Almost all the male costume designers in Hollywood in the '30s, '40s, and '50s, when stars were curvacious and full figured (Jean Harlow, Betty Grable, Rita Hayworth, Jane Russell, Marilyn Monroe, etc.), were gay too.

The idea that gay costume designers want women to look like boys is ridiculous if not insulting.

[El Elvis Rojo]

Ummmm...now I haven't seen the movie yet, but isn't it quite possible that the reason all the back up dancers are skinny is because they're, well...DANCERS?
I have a couple of friends who are in ballet. One has a wonderfully curvacious figure, but that's due to the fact that she has huge hip bones. Aside from that, both of them are insanely skinny, as is virtually every other woman they work with. It's not prejudice on the part of the choreogrophers or whoever in charge of the ballet theater, it's due to the fact that with all the excercise, work out, and performing they do, they're trim as shit. Most dancers, especially those who work to become professional enough to get into movies, dedicate a LOT of time and effort into getting that good. That's a lot of excercise, and a lot of hard work that leaves one incredibly skinny. I seriously doubt the presence of skinny women in the film had anything to do with "feeding the ideal of skinny=beautiful" as it does with finding the best dancers they could, and the fact that anyone who works that hard to get there, is going to be skinny as a stick.

[Mith]

Originally posted by Walloon

The idea that gay costume designers want women to look like boys is ridiculous if not insulting.

Relax. It was just a theory being thrown out.

the prepubescent look ..what with the shaved genitals in all porn now....to curveless, boobless, waif thin models is interesting to discuss.

Is this how we are trying to look younger? by looking as though they have not hit puberty?
or is the genital shaving and whatnot simply to look different from all other mammals?

[Athena]

Originally posted by El Elvis Rojo
Ummmm...now I haven't seen the movie yet, but isn't it quite possible that the reason all the back up dancers are skinny is because they're, well...DANCERS?
I have a couple of friends who are in ballet. One has a wonderfully curvacious figure, but that's due to the fact that she has huge hip bones. Aside from that, both of them are insanely skinny, as is virtually every other woman they work with. It's not prejudice on the part of the choreogrophers or whoever in charge of the ballet theater, it's due to the fact that with all the excercise, work out, and performing they do, they're trim as shit. Most dancers, especially those who work to become professional enough to get into movies, dedicate a LOT of time and effort into getting that good. That's a lot of excercise, and a lot of hard work that leaves one incredibly skinny. I seriously doubt the presence of skinny women in the film had anything to do with "feeding the ideal of skinny=beautiful" as it does with finding the best dancers they could, and the fact that anyone who works that hard to get there, is going to be skinny as a stick.

Er... I don't know about your friends, but every thing I've ever read about professional dancers seems to agree that it's a profession as bad or worse than acting as far as pushing the "ideal skinny" body. Eating disorders (bulimia, anorexia) are quite common in the dance world.

Contrast a professional dancer with any other kind of professional female athlete - they *all* work out as hard as dancers, and you don't often see waifs playing tennis, skiing, hell, even professional skaters look of decent weight and healthy.

[Mrelia]

Heh...imagine if Marilyn Monroe were trying to break into showbusiness these days, she'd be too fat!

I'm glad my hubby generally prefers REAL women. If he's ogling a gal on TV (look but don't touch, honey!), it's usually a soccer player or ice-skater. If I had to diet myself into a skeleton for him to be happy, we wouldn't be together!

[Rubystreak]

I noticed that Renee Zellweger has ZERO chest, and wondered how that is actually sexy to anyone who likes women. She has a cute face, but her body is a popsicle stick. Catherine Zeta-Jones seemed to look great, but she was always trussed up in those corsets. I wonder if she still had baby-weight, but I don't care-- she's gorgeous.

Maybe they figured Queen Latifah was going to take care of the bustiness for the whole cast-- she has a hydraulic bust!

Overall, I really enjoyed Chicago. It was fun and fast-paced. Eye candy, not heavyweight, and therefore unlikely to compete seriously against some of the other movies I imagine being nominated (Gangs of NY, The Hours, The Piano, About Schmidt, who knows?).

[mouthbreather]

Originally posted by Mrelia
Heh...imagine if Marilyn Monroe were trying to break into showbusiness these days, she'd be too fat!

maybe, but probably not.

[tsunamisurfer]

Originally posted by El Elvis Rojo
Ummmm...now I haven't seen the movie yet, but isn't it quite possible that the reason all the back up dancers are skinny is because they're, well...DANCERS?

I have a couple of friends who are in ballet. One has a wonderfully curvacious figure, but that's due to the fact that she has huge hip bones. Aside from that, both of them are insanely skinny, as is virtually every other woman they work with. It's not prejudice on the part of the choreogrophers or whoever in charge of the ballet theater, it's due to the fact that with all the excercise, work out, and performing they do, they're trim as shit.

Most dancers, especially those who work to become professional enough to get into movies, dedicate a LOT of time and effort into getting that good. That's a lot of excercise, and a lot of hard work that leaves one incredibly skinny. I seriously doubt the presence of skinny women in the film had anything to do with "feeding the ideal of skinny=beautiful" as it does with finding the best dancers they could, and the fact that anyone who works that hard to get there, is going to be skinny as a stick.

Originally posted by Athena
Er... I don't know about your friends, but every thing I've ever read about professional dancers seems to agree that it's a profession as bad or worse than acting as far as pushing the "ideal skinny" body. Eating disorders (bulimia, anorexia) are quite common in the dance world.

Contrast a professional dancer with any other kind of professional female athlete - they *all* work out as hard as dancers, and you don't often see waifs playing tennis, skiing, hell, even professional skaters look of decent weight and healthy.

I have to agree with El Elvis Rojo. My third strongest negative reaction to Chicago was CZ Jones looking much too heavy in the hips and legs--nothing like a dancer. (My first and second objections, respectively, were both female actors lack of professional dancing talent and Richard Gere's voice. Whatever. The movie still rocked.) CZ Jones may have been pregnant.

Each sport that you cite tends to reward certain physiologies, based on the need for explosive power, limberness, endurance, etc.. Downhill female skiiers (think Peekabo Street) are usually bulky as hell, with huge butts, hips and thighs. Tennis players too need explosive power, but also flexibility and endurance, so you'll see a different appearance. Ice skaters need tons of explosive power for their double and triple jumps, hence their somewhat overdeveloped quads/hams.

Dancers--especially jazz dancers--generally don't need explosive power. They need flexibility and endurance.

I thought Renee's lines were great (despite the sunken chest, as some suggest) and made her more believeable as a dancer. She's short, so she needed to be thin. She has the prototypical flapper body. That said, CZ Jones is gorgeous and an underrated actor. As for one of the dancers that some poster "gasped" at, I thought she looked great. Much of the gasping is due to her very large rib cage juxtaposed against a thin, thin body. She probably also had her chest held out for dramatic effect.

[irishgirl]

for all those who say that dancers have to be skinny, i suggest you re-watch "White Christmas", "Kiss Me Kate" and "Guys and Dolls".

the female dancers in these movies train just as hard as dancers today, dance just as well, and probably weigh about 20 pounds more.

the notable exception is Danny Kaye's girlfriend in White Christmas...stick thin, and she looks terrible compared to the rest of the dancers.

[El Elvis Rojo]

Originally posted by Athena
Er... I don't know about your friends, but every thing I've ever read about professional dancers seems to agree that it's a profession as bad or worse than acting as far as pushing the "ideal skinny" body. Eating disorders (bulimia, anorexia) are quite common in the dance world.

Contrast a professional dancer with any other kind of professional female athlete - they *all* work out as hard as dancers, and you don't often see waifs playing tennis, skiing, hell, even professional skaters look of decent weight and healthy.

As tsunamisurfer pointed out, there's a big difference in the body build needed for such activities. Look at professional bicyclists. They're generally stick thin as well. Professional speed skaters? Incredibly thin. Professional swimmers? Thin again. These are all professional sports that require lots of dedication and excercise, but I dare you to find a heavy/bulky professional bicyclist. It's the same with dancers. I'll admit, there are some that have big legs and thights, but how many professional female ballet dancers have you seen with huge muscular upperbodies and legs that look like they can kick in a car door? Comparing a dancer to a professional soft ball player isn't a fair judgement, because they work out for different things. For many professional sports, you want strength and girth, but for dancing, you want strength plus flexibility and nimbleness. Thus, when one excercises and works out, they train to get tone as opposed to muscular growth, and you have two different outcomes.

Don't believe me, just go catch a glimpse of you local ballet troupe the next time they perform and see how many "big women" you find.
(p.s. I'm a fan of the Marilyn Monroe figure, myself. There's nothing more beautiful than a woman with curves in all the right places...mmmm...hips)

[tsunamisurfer]

Originally posted by irishgirl
for all those who say that dancers have to be skinny, i suggest you re-watch "White Christmas", "Kiss Me Kate" and "Guys and Dolls".

I didn't say they "have to be skinny." Many outstanding female dancers are not thin. That said, I like the lines of a thin female dancer. If you don't, no problem.

[tsunamisurfer]

Originally posted by El Elvis Rojo
As tsunamisurfer pointed out, there's a big difference in the body build needed for such activities. Look at professional bicyclists. They're generally stick thin as well. Professional speed skaters? Incredibly thin. Professional swimmers? Thin again. These are all professional sports that require lots of dedication and excercise, but I dare you to find a heavy/bulky professional bicyclist. It's the same with dancers. I'll admit, there are some that have big legs and thights, but how many professional female ballet dancers have you seen with huge muscular upperbodies and legs that look like they can kick in a car door? Comparing a dancer to a professional soft ball player isn't a fair judgement, because they work out for different things. For many professional sports, you want strength and girth, but for dancing, you want strength plus flexibility and nimbleness. Thus, when one excercises and works out, they train to get tone as opposed to muscular growth, and you have two different outcomes.

I was with you up--until now.

True, most speed skaters have smallish upper bodies, but the sprinters especially have disproportionately large quads. Again, explosive power. Ditto some of the short-distance bicyclists.

Ballet dancers are in a class by themselves. Many are genetically predisposed to thinness, yes--IOW, naturally thin--but I believe many are bulimic or anorexic.

That said, to my thinking, there is something very beautiful about the lines of a fairly tall (5' 7" to 5' 10"), very thin female dancer.

[Walloon]

Originally posted by tsunamisurfer
with all the excercise, work out, and performing they do, they're trim as shit.

How trim is shit?

[tsunamisurfer]

Originally posted by Walloon
How trim is shit?

I never said this and am not amused.

Do not errantly attribute a quote to me that I did not say or I will contact the moderators.

[Avarie537]

The original post was made by El Elvis Rojo, and tsunamisurfer quoted it.

[porcupine]

Originally posted by tsunamisurfer
I never said this and am not amused.

Do not errantly attribute a quote to me that I did not say or I will contact the moderators.

Have a look in your first post in this thread - Considering that it unclear where you were quoting El Elvis Rojo in your post and where you weren't, it's pretty obvious why Walloon thought you said this.

[Lamia]

Originally posted by tsunamisurfer

I have to agree with El Elvis Rojo. My third strongest negative reaction to Chicago was CZ Jones looking much too heavy in the hips and legs--nothing like a dancer. (My first and second objections, respectively, were both female actors lack of professional dancing talent and Richard Gere's voice. Whatever. The movie still rocked.) CZ Jones may have been pregnant.

It's odd that you'd say Catherine Zeta-Jones doesn't look like a dancer and has no professional dancing talent, as she was a professional dancer in the British musical theatre for years before going into television (in the UK) and then film (in Hollywood).

I'm pretty sure she wasn't pregnant during the production of Chicago either.

[Exapno Mapcase]

I once went to a reception for the Garth Fagan Dance Troupe and was surprised by how small and slight the dancers looked offstage. None of them, including the men, were anywhere near six feet tall. But they all had mightily impressive thigh muscles.

[tsunamisurfer]

Originally posted by Lamia
It's odd that you'd say Catherine Zeta-Jones doesn't look like a dancer and has no professional dancing talent, as she was a professional dancer in the British musical theatre for years before going into television (in the UK) and then film (in Hollywood).

I'm pretty sure she wasn't pregnant during the production of Chicago either.

Not so. During a recent interview, she said that, other than tap dancing, she has no formal training, certainly not in jazz dancing. (In fact, over the last two years, her claims re: dancing have decreased, as critics pointed out inconsistencies in her previous accounts.)

I think Zeta-Jones did an admirable job, but she clearly was cast for her considerable name recognition, not for her dancing talent, and the editing reflects and compensates for this. She simply cannot hold a candle to a professional dancer who, in all fairness, could never hold a candle to her box-office draw.

BTW, in another interview (I'm a big Z-J admirer, generally speaking) she said she was 3-4 months pregnant during some of the shooting. Please don't misconstrue my remarks. I think Z-J is a major talent.

[Zebra]

In 'Chicago' there is one particular dancer that sticks out. Or should I say her RIBS stick out.

At the beginning of the Tango number all the murderesses are posed in a line. One of them, in the way she is posed and the way she is lit, looks terrible. I mean Death Camp terrible. She looks a bit more normal when she comes out of her pose and starts dancing but I gasped when I first saw her.

I love watching Rear Window and Miss Torso character. She certainly is not skinny and I guess at the time she would be considered to have a dancers body.

[FranticMad]

Originally posted by Walloon
Fashion designers and choreographers, gay or straight, do not cast movies or order female stars to adapt themselves to their costumes.

Almost all the male costume designers in Hollywood in the '30s, '40s, and '50s, when stars were curvacious and full figured...were gay too.

The idea that gay costume designers want women to look like boys is ridiculous if not insulting.

No insult intended.
I have taken classes from casting directors. As a director I have cast actors in shows, and as an actor I have been subjected to the casting cattle calls. I assure you that appearance is extremely important in the decision-making process. In most cases, if you aren't compatible with the physical type you don't even get considered for the role.

I agree with you that the early Hollywood images of women were full figured. I guess I'm referring to modern standards, which seemed to really take hold in the 1980's.

My speculation comes from two things: that so many runway models are, compared to the average woman I know, thin, hipless, and breastless. Fashion designers talk about how the clothes "hang" better on such a woman -- but most people I know don't find hanging cloth to be attractive. Most men I know like to see a womanly figure which is a rarity on the fashion catwalk.

Some of my gay friends say they don't see womens' secondary sexual characteristics figure as being sexy, as in sexually exciting. I think this only makes sense. I hope it is not offensive. I mean, think it's quite understandable that modern gay sensibilities (not that I am claiming any expertise on that) could exert an influence on the types of bodies chosen for modeling and other realms.

I acknowledge that there are many influences that have nothing to do with gay preferences. There is probably a selection that occurs before casting. In schools, a chubby woman get negative reactions compared to her svelt colleagues. I dated a dancer and the dance school culture can be very intimidating. Everyone is obsessing about how much they ate, and whether they are retaining water and their stomachs are sticking out by 4 microns. Bulimia and anorexia in dancers is shockingly common.

If I've caused offence with my speculations, let me know what it is that I said. I will listen.

[Lamia]

Originally posted by tsunamisurfer
Not so. During a recent interview, she said that, other than tap dancing, she has no formal training, certainly not in jazz dancing. (In fact, over the last two years, her claims re: dancing have decreased, as critics pointed out inconsistencies in her previous accounts.)

I don't know anything about her training and made no claims as to it, I just said she had professional dance experience. I base that claim solely on the IMDB's bio, which says she had several starring roles in stage productions that involved dancing as a child/teen actress. If that's inaccurate then I was wrong, and that's what I get for trusting stuff I read on the Internet!

[Yorikke]

Originally posted by Zebra
In 'Chicago' there is one particular dancer that sticks out. Or should I say her RIBS stick out.

At the beginning of the Tango number all the murderesses are posed in a line. One of them, in the way she is posed and the way she is lit, looks terrible. I mean Death Camp terrible. She looks a bit more normal when she comes out of her pose and starts dancing but I gasped when I first saw her.

I think that she's one of the ones I referred to in my OP, and I actually said "Oh my god!" out loud when I saw her...

hrh

[Baldwin]

I read that Kate Winslet (who is definitely built like a woman) was righteously pissed off because a London magazine retouched her photos to make her look thin.

[tsunamisurfer]

Originally posted by Lamia
I don't know anything about her training and made no claims as to it, I just said she had professional dance experience. I base that claim solely on the IMDB's bio, which says she had several starring roles in stage productions that involved dancing as a child/teen actress. If that's inaccurate then I was wrong, and that's what I get for trusting stuff I read on the Internet!

No problem. And let's give her credit for being able to do everything she did--while pregnant. Her dancing was accomplished, given her background.

Re: another poster, I'll add that I thought Renee was gorgeous, "skinny" and all. Thank goodness at least one blonde in Hollywood doesn't have to be an overnight D cup.

[tsunamisurfer]

Originally posted by hrhomer
I think that she's one of the ones I referred to in my OP, and I actually said "Oh my god!" out loud when I saw her...

hrh

What I said earlier (though modified)...

"As for one of the dancers that some poster "gasped" at, I thought she looked great. First, the lighting was visually striking. Second, she was puffing out her chest for dramatic effect. Third, she had an exceptionally large rib cage. Juxtapose these against a thin, thin frame..." (Of course, I worry about girls wanting to emulate this dancer.)

Re: Kate Winslet being a "real woman," women are real women no matter how they appear. If one person enjoys a skinny woman while another a curvy or big, strapping woman, fine.

[msmith537]

Originally posted by FranticMad
Bulimia and anorexia in dancers is shockingly common.

Dancers can read minds?!!

Originally posted by Rubystreak
I noticed that Renee Zellweger has ZERO chest, and wondered how that is actually sexy to anyone who likes women. [/b]

Hey..if you want to super-sized your Renee Zellweger go rent Briget Jone's Diary.

Personally, I do not find big chunk-size women attractive. A big ol gut and side of beef thighes are really a huge turnoff for me.

On the other hand, I don't want to date Skelletasia either.

[El Elvis Rojo]

Originally posted by Baldwin
I read that Kate Winslet (who is definitely built like a woman) was righteously pissed off because a London magazine retouched her photos to make her look thin.

Actually, it wasn't Kate, it was her FANS. KAte Winslet is a beautifully curvacious woman with some great thighs. The photos made her legs seem about a foot longer, incredible skinny, and according to the interview I saw, she liked the way the photos turned out. I'm not saying that she wishes her legs were that long and thin, but she didn't seem to mind the alterations. Those of her fans who like the fact she's a bit more full figured than most stars out there, on the other hand, were highly offended.

[Zap_Rowsdower]

There is something I have noticed in a few shows lately. For example, Jessica Alba in Dark Angel the first season looked incredible. In the second season she came back and did not look nearly as good IMO. Her face had that sunken look and she just seemed less attractive and less healthy in the second season.

[dil]

Originally posted by Zap_Rowsdower
There is something I have noticed in a few shows lately. For example, Jessica Alba in Dark Angel the first season looked incredible. In the second season she came back and did not look nearly as good IMO. Her face had that sunken look and she just seemed less attractive and less healthy in the second season.

That would be the Jennifer Aniston effect. IMO, and the opinion of most guys I know, both J.A.'s (Aniston and Alba) looked better before they became stick-thin. Hollywood sucks.

[Yorikke]

Originally posted by msmith537
Hey..if you want to super-sized your Renee Zellweger go rent Briget Jone's Diary.

Personally, I do not find big chunk-size women attractive. A big ol gut and side of beef thighes are really a huge turnoff for me.

Even in "Bridget...," Renee Z. did NOT have a "big ol gut." Her thighs were approximately average-sized, often made to look bigger by choice of outfits. If you like 'em skinny, fine, but the only actresses (off the top of my head) that can even be considered overweight are Kathy Bates, Camryn Mannheim, and various black actresses - I'm sure there are more, but none popping into my head...

hrh

[Yorikke]

Originally posted by dil
That would be the Jennifer Aniston effect. IMO, and the opinion of most guys I know, both J.A.'s (Aniston and Alba) looked better before they became stick-thin. Hollywood sucks.

And speaking of Friends, is Courtney Cox-Arquette the next Karen Carpenter? My god, she's positively skeletal...

hrh