Is college necessary for everyone?

[Magnetic Flux]

I just came up with a question that I've had a huge debate out not too long ago. I personally believe that college is necessary for everyone. I was wondering if you though the same thing. As you know, some people say that you don't have to go to college to make money---which is absolutely true. But, how about going to college to advance your knowledge? What's your opinion?

[Magnetic Flux]

Oopsies...I made numerous spelling errors. Excuse me. Hope you can understand what I'm trying to say.

[Seamonkey]

I have a son that is just not college material. You know the old saying, "You can make me go to school, but you can't make me learn". I'm not wasting my money and he would be wasting his time.

The kid is intelligent in a people way, but can't stand opening a book. I worry about this of course, but I have met many educated people that were dumber that a box of rocks.

[lorinada]

Well, of course college is not for everyone. Someone with a low IQ who is not likely to be anything more than a ditchdigger or a garbageman would have absolutely no use for college. I'm certainly not meaning to imply anything ugly by saying this, no an can help what they're born with and we need garbagemen.

But if you are meaning "everyone" as in everyone who has the innate intelligence and self-motivation to gain some value from it, unfortunately our society seems to be that way now. It takes a degree to get a job that has nothing to do with any type of degree. And if there is no type, someone will come up with one and then next thing you know, anyone who wants to pursue that profession "needs" that degree. My ex once said that about the only thing you can make a fair living at these days that doesn't require a degree is managing a grocery store. And that's only because no one's thought of coming up with a BGA - Bachelor of Grocery Arts.

[Eutychus]

Originally posted by Magnetic Flux
Oopsies...I made numerous spelling errors. Excuse me. Hope you can understand what I'm trying to say.

Irony once again slaps us upside the head with a soggy pickle.

[GuanoLad]

I used to be in a job for a tiny company, and the manager had recently gotten his degree in Marketing and Business or something. And he was terrible as a manager, he really didn't have a clue what he was doing, and the business failed after 18 months.

Now I'm in a job and the manager's only degree is in Theatre, yet the (non-theatrical) business is being managed wonderfully. It's growing, it's fairly solid, the employees are happy, and we're successful in our field.

You don't have to have a degree to be a success, and you aren't necessarily going to be a success if you get the right degree.

[JRDelirious]

Necessary, no, not for everybody. Useful and convenient, yes, as it provides an opportunity to explore higher levels of knowledge in an organized, time-tested fashion.

As mentioned before a degree controls access to many jobs, but a person does not need to work at one of those jobs, it's their choice. Refer to GuanoLad's post.

[Fretful Porpentine]

Absolutely not. I'm a PhD student, so obviously I've invested a huge amount of my own time and energy in higher education, and I believe in the process and think it has value. But not for everyone. To be honest, I'd much rather see fewer students going to college, or going later in life after they've had time to think about what they want from the experience -- despite the fact that it would put my own job at risk.

Most students go to college for the wrong reason -- either because everybody else in their school or neighborhood is going, or because they think a degree guarantees them a job. Granted, some of these students do end up getting a lot out of the experience, but I'd much prefer that they waited a few years and came to it on their own terms rather than because somebody else expected it. Others simply aren't cut out for academics -- which doesn't make them stupid, just focused in different directions -- and learn very little in college, then blossom in the working world or the military or wherever they end up. Most of these people would be better off not going to college, if only employers weren't obsessive about requiring a degree. I think it's a damn shame that we've come to mistake academic qualifications for vocational ones; it's not fair to employees or to the academy.

That said, I think a college education is a good thing for most people, if it's their own choice and they're mature enough to know what they're doing.

[Searching For Truth]

Euty! A soggy pickle? Gross.

I am definitely of the opinion that college is NOT for everyone. One of the biggest problems concerning colleges now (IMHO) is that too many of the students are there just because they're 'supposed' to go to college, and not because they want to learn, like Fretful Porpentine said. These people clog up the classrooms where students like me are trying to genuinely learn, and that's not fair.

[Contrary]

/agree with Fretful

I started college at 29 -- after spending a few years in the Army, getting married and having a couple of children. I was far better prepared to go to school, mostly because I wanted to be there.

As a couple of other posters have pointed out, getting a degree does not mean someone has the right qualifications to do a job. It just means that person was able to complete a set course of study at a university.

I'm very glad I got my degree, mostly because in my field it's required. Other than that, I'm not a bit smarter than I was before I went to school.

Plus I'm not really a better employee than I was before except that I'm more mature. And that comes with age, not education.

[xenothrope]

Perhaps you do not realize the following;
We need people to flip burgers,
We need people to be garbagemen,
We need people to pump gas,
We need people to be gardeners,
We need farmers,
We need people who arent 'highly educated' in order to make this country work.

My $0.02
-x

[Cajun Man]

This thread is better suited for In My Humble Opinion. I'll move it for you.

__________________

Cajun Man ~ SDMB Moderator

[Medea's Child]

No. No. No. No. And No.

College isn't nessesary for half the people in it, to judge from the population in my classes who are there for all the wrong reasons. Any class is detracted from when more than half the class doesn't want to be there, and while there should be a minimum educational level forced upon the public, college should be beyond that. Higher education should be for the people who want to be there, not for kids who have no idea what they want to do and are just trying to get away from their parents.

While we are here, if you hate math, chemistry, and homework, why are you majoring in Chemical Engeering? Get out of my school, stop wasting my time to get an education by refusing to put the work in and then wanting everyone to cut you slack because you don't like anything involved with the major!

[Magnetic Flux]

Wow...I see I'm the only one here with a difference of opinion. Which isn't bad at all.

[Lute Skywatcher]

I'm a Federal employee earning nearly $40K a year and I've never been to college.

[whiterabbit]

No, it's not. But a lot of people think it is. It's not even always necessary in fields which people THINK it is.

My mother's husband has been working with computers since the late '60s. He has had email since 1974. He can make a mainframe computer sit up and beg.

However, he's had a hell of a time getting any higher in the company he works for because -- guess what! -- he doesn't have a degree! Of course he doesn't! There was NO SUCH THING back then!

Apparently a piece of paper acquired with information that will be virtually obsolete within a few years is a better job qualifier than 30+ years of DIRECT EXPERIENCE.

*slow burn*

[whiterabbit]

"in fields IN which." I should learn to preview.

[Achernar]

A lot of unskilled labor can be done by high school students, or, more generally, by people who will go to college some day and get more challenging jobs. So the existence of unskilled labor does not imply that college is not for everyone.

However, even so, I don't think that everyone has a need for advanced job training. But we do all have a need for higher education. If you think that the main point of going to college is to get a better job, then I agree that college is not for everyone. However, that's certainly not why I went to college. The OP even mentioned advancing knowledge as opposed to advancing your career, something almost everyone here seems to have overlooked.

I think that four solid years of education beyond high school is probably too much to ask for the purposes of personal edification, but maybe five or six courses over ten years? That's something that almost everyone can benefit from.

[zoogirl]

In my neighbourhood, at the time, simply finishing High School was considered quite an accomplishment. A number of my friends didn't get past Grade Nine and yet they're intelligent, well spoken and, in several cases, avid reader's who have made it a point to self-educate themselves. I only have Grade Twelve and I'm happy in my work, my family and my friends. I think that's beyond "Good Enough".

I believe a wide range of experience, if it's combined with a willingness to learn, will equip a person for life far better than four years in a classroom.

[Tamex]

Actually, I don't even think high school is necessary for everyone, if you really think about it. The basic academic skills you need to survive in society--reading, writing, arithmetic, basic science, history, geography, how government works--they are all taught by eighth grade. (In my school, we even learned how to balance a checkbook, calculate interest, and the basics of the stock market.) Many people aren't really interested in learning beyond that point. Maybe they should be, but they just aren't. They aren't going to use algebra or chemical equations or write research papers in the years ahead, even if their job "requires" a high school diploma. All a high school diploma says is that you were willing to put in the necessary "seat time". It's getting to be that a bachelor's degree means about the same thing.

Learning for learning's sake is all fine and dandy if you want to do it. I'd say that there are a great many people on this board who are into learning in many different ways. However, if all you want to do is get a job--why waste time, money, and effort?

If, on the other hand, you want to learn about a certain subject, there are many different ways to go about it--you could read books, look things up on the internet, ask people about it, simply try it out (if it's a hands-on kind of thing) or you could take a class (or a lot of classes!) Why is taking a class the only "legitimate" way to advance your knowledge?

[JThunder]

Originally posted by xenothrope

We need people to pump gas,

We do?

[slice]

JThunder, there are one or two states that require that your gas be pumped for you. (I learned this the hard way a few years ago while attempting to gas up in New Jersey.) I think Oregon is the other one. I'm fairly sure these laws are still in effect.

[skaterboarder87]

College us great if you want to work for an employer the rest of your life. I'm more interested in becoming an entrepreneur, thus I teach myself all necessary skills.

[Lute Skywatcher]

Originally posted by zoogirl
In my neighbourhood, at the time, simply finishing High School was considered quite an accomplishment. A number of my friends didn't get past Grade Nine and yet they're intelligent, well spoken and, in several cases, avid reader's who have made it a point to self-educate themselves. I only have Grade Twelve and I'm happy in my work, my family and my friends. I think that's beyond "Good Enough".

That reminds me, my very first direct boss in the Government started out as a GS-1, the lowest rung on the ladder. GS-1s are those who never finished high school; all high school graduates are automatic GS-2s and college grads are at least GS-4s.

[GrinnaGirla]

Necessary? No. Useful? For some. Absolutely bad idea? For some.

Count me in the third group. Although I studied and got the grades, high school was a trial for me. The classes I really enjoyed and excelled in went too slow, like French and English. Math, on the other hand, (with the exception of 1 year out of 4) I dreaded everyday. I understood it, but that's not the same as enjoying it.

I went on to college, because I felt it was expected of me. My parents never pushed it, but I felt the pressure all around. After 2 years of complete misery in classes, I made the decision to leave school, and have never truly regretted it. Once in a while I think, "If I had finished college...", but it never lasts for more than a few seconds.

Of my relatives that are old enough to have graduated from college, which at last count was 27, I am the only one who hasn't finished. I always get questioned about going back to school everytime we have a big family get together, but to avoid the arguement, it is easier to say that I plan to go back eventually, even though I have no intention of ever doing so.

However, none of this means I don't enjoy learning. I love to learn, and learn every day. I will be taking an electronics class in a few weeks, just because I want to, and my company is sponsoring it. It has nothing to do with my job, but they feel any kind of learning is good.

Had I finished college, I would have been miserable for 2 more years, and I couldn't see putting myself through that.

[Magickly Delicious]

Well, I wanted to be an engineer, so I had to. It's neat working with older people who got into the field just by experience and not schooling, though. There's something to be said for both approaches. Although, unfortunately, everybody requires the piece of paper nowadays. And I've heard that in CE, they're planning to make a master's the entry-level requirement in the future! *sigh*

I do wish, though, that the idiots who slacked off and slid by on just-barely-there grades and took classes twice and dropped classes at the last minute so they were able to pass because they're here because they're supposed to be didn't get the same piece of paper as me. Seriously, people who go to college and don't mean it annoy me. I've met a lot of people who are here for the paper instead of the education, and that makes me sad.

[msmith537]

IMHO, the reason jobs require a college degree even if the degree is not related to the job is because people who go to college tend to be more well rounded. You get exposed to people and subject matter that you might not get exposed to by cherry-picking books you are interested in.

Not to mention that it shows a commitment to setting a goal and achieving it.

If I was an employer and saw that a person couldn't commit to completing a 4-year degree, why would I assume they wouldn't get sick and quit after a few months? Or worse, not quit and just float along doing the bare minimum?

skaterboarder87 quote:
College us great if you want to work for an employer the rest of your life. I'm more interested in becoming an entrepreneur, thus I teach myself all necessary skills.

That's fine and a lot of people do that but what do you know or do well enough to sell to other people? And why do you think that you wouldn't benefit from going to a college of like minded people where you might meet other entrepreneurs who you can share ideas with? Those classmates may become future business partners or investors.

Problem is that you don't know what you don't know.

Jeff Olsen quote:
That reminds me, my very first direct boss in the Government started out as a GS-1, the lowest rung on the ladder. GS-1s are those who never finished high school; all high school graduates are automatic GS-2s and college grads are at least GS-4s.

My friend Austin Millbarge joined Government service as a GLG-20

[Doomtrain]

I went to college my first round just cause there was no other choice at the time. Just not going wasn't even in my frame of reference, but I dropped out about 2 years in. I spent the next couple of years working and figuring out what I wanted to do. I'm now in college again and I'm a little more prepared, but I still don't like that I have to have a piece of paper to get CONSIDERED for most jobs.

[FairyChatMom]

I did the high-school-to-college route because I thought I wanted to be a French teacher. I got to college and hated it. So I dropped out and joined the Navy.

Three years later, I was selected for a Navy program that sent me back to college to get my engineering degree. While I wasn't a Dean's list student, I did much better because I had a goal as well as a little bit of life outside of high school. Anyway, college was definitely wrong for me in 1973, but it was a better fit in 1976. Three of my sibs never went to college, and they're doing OK. Although my brother, the CPA with the MBA, is doing better than all of us combined.

So, to answer the OP from my point of view - no.

[Manatee]

As a college teacher, I can tell you most definitely no. Not everyone is cut out for it, as many posters above have mentioned. And having worked as drywaller, a framer, and a ditch digger, I know that you can support a family without a college education (well, maybe not with the latter job).

[sunstone]

I don't believe that college is for everyone, especially for those just out of high school. Although I and my family are very academically inclined, we have a number of intelligent and articulate friends who never went to college. They work in high skilled occupations, and most are very happy with their lack of college.

For some reason, we tend to devalue the talents and skills of folks like cabinet makers, auto mechanics, and so forth. What nonsense! Those occupations and many others require high levels of dedication and long years to master. And, BTW, many of those pay more than many college based educations.

I personally think that the statement "everyone should go to college" is very superficial, and if colleges were actually structured to serve all potential students, there would be a drastic lowering of standards. The result would be a non-college system that we call college for PC purposes.

[Tamex]

Originally posted by Achernar
A lot of unskilled labor can be done by high school students, or, more generally, by people who will go to college some day and get more challenging jobs. So the existence of unskilled labor does not imply that college is not for everyone.

How about skilled labor? We will always need, for example, bricklayers, electricians, carpenters, and plumbers. Those are jobs that require training, but not a college education. I think that experience is pretty important in those endeavors, as well, and I don't think you can count on those who are picking something up to do before they go on to college and their "real career" to completely fulfill that role.

My sister joined the military out of high school. She said that it was an invaluable experience to her, but it's certainly not for everyone! I think college is the same way.

[Atrael]

Originally posted by msmith537
IMHO, the reason jobs require a college degree even if the degree is not related to the job is because people who go to college tend to be more well rounded. You get exposed to people and subject matter that you might not get exposed to by cherry-picking books you are interested in.

Unlike say, 6 years in the Navy, living on both coast of the US, in Italy for 3 years, and visiting 4 other countries in that time period. Working with member of foreign military organization, as well as interoperating with different branches of the US military. Right, I can see how that would make me close minded, and under exposed.

Not to mention that it shows a commitment to setting a goal and achieving it.

If I was an employer and saw that a person couldn't commit to completing a 4-year degree, why would I assume they wouldn't get sick and quit after a few months? Or worse, not quit and just float along doing the bare minimum?

Again, committing to a year long military technical school, and upon completion, committing to another 3 years in the Navy. Granted the military doesn't allow you to "quit" the same way you can in a normal job, but then you do have a lot of opportunity at the beginning of your enlistment where you can back out, with no harm done. And in all honesty, how many people with a family to support can just up and leave their jobs?

This is (obviously) a bone of contention with me. While I agree that the ideal of higher education is good, the reality is that it's a piece of paper that allows discrimination against those that earned their knowledge through experience.*


* I'll caveat that by stating that there are many many fields that do require that structured classroom instruction. Medical/Law/Engineering/Chemistry just to name a very few.

[msmith537]

Originally posted by Atrael
Unlike say, 6 years in the Navy, living on both coast of the US, in Italy for 3 years, and visiting 4 other countries in that time period. Working with member of foreign military organization, as well as interoperating with different branches of the US military. Right, I can see how that would make me close minded, and under exposed.

I don't believe anyone was talking about you or the Navy, Mr. Sensitive. My comments were really addressed to people who elect to just go join the workforce instead of college.

Originally posted by Atrael
I'll caveat that by stating that there are many many fields that do require that structured classroom instruction. Medical/Law/Engineering/Chemistry just to name a very few
[/b]

I guess my opinion is that college is a means to an end and that end being a high paying job in an interesting field. So unless you are going to study one of the many fields that require structured classroom instruction, there's not much of a point to go.

Problem is that there is no quantitative way to measure "real world" experience unless it is related to jobs held.

I'm curious, what fields do you feel should not require a college degree?

[effac3d]

Originally posted by xenothrope
Perhaps you do not realize the following;
We need people to flip burgers,
We need people to be garbagemen,
We need people to pump gas,
We need people to be gardeners,
We need farmers,
We need people who arent 'highly educated' in order to make this country work.

My $0.02
-x

What happens when all those jobs are being performed by automated machines?

They all ready have fully automated gas stations.

[CrankyAsAnOldMan]

I feel like I wrote a post and then submitted it under Fretful's name. That's precisely what I would have written, except to say that I just recently became an EX-PhD student.

[StGermain]

My oldest sister never graduated high school, although she was released from HS early so she could attend college. She dropped out of college and started traveling in Europe and the Mid-East. She married my B-I-L when he was stationed in Germany and she was living there. They came back to the States and she got a job as a secretary in the international transportation department of a major national retailer. Within 3 years she'd worked her way up from secretary to head of the department. She presently heads up the international transportation for PetSmart, directing all their international imports, customs, etc. Her boss is thinking of putting her over the buying, too, so she can maximize savings in that area. Again, she doesn't even have a HS diploma and she's making a great salary doing a job she enjoys. One of my other sisters is a college graduate, and she's sitting on her butt letting her twin support her. The first sister is far smarter, well-read and motivated than the second sister. So, no, I don't think a college education is a necessity.

StG

[lee]

Let's not forget there are skills that are best learned outside of college. Not all jobs that do not require a college degree are unskilled labor. There are artisans of all sorts that get skills by working with other artisans, and even those that are largely self taught. There are also jobs that one is best trained in on the job rather than in a class. I think it is wrong headed to force all learning and training into a college mold.

[Doomtrain]

I think a college diploma tends to make an employer assume a certain base level of skills, like a high school diploma used to--even if you drank all the time, never went to class, and barely got that diploma.

[msmith537]

The thing is, college does have a profound effect on your life. Especially considering that it's only 4 years. People see my college name on my resume and they assume a number of things. I have an instant bond with anyone I meet from my school or fraternity. Much of my dress and mannerisms and taste in music is the result of where I went to college. Many of my closest friends who I keep in touch with no matter where they live are people from college. Oh yeah...and there's the education too.

The only other thing I can think of that would have such a huge effect in such a short time would be military service (which has it's own pros and cons).

So to sum up - college - not necessary but probably a good idea.

[Niggle]

I wish I'd finished my degree.....

However, I'm currently earning close to 6 figures doing something I taught myself (computer graphics, among other things).

But I put more of my own time into learning that than I ever would have put into a degree.

Anyway, college is a very nice thing and I'd love to finish it simply for the education aspect, but it really isn't necessary to do quite well in the world provided you have some tenacity and self-discipline.

Methinks mssmith is correct in that people who decide to skip college and go straight into the workforce are doing themselves a disservice. Getting out there and doing some traveling is a much better way to education onesself if one isn't considering formal education.

Personally, I spent most of my teen years traveling around the world, so I wasn't particularly worried about any lack of personal growth.

-n

[Niggle]

I wish I'd finished my degree.....

However, I'm currently earning close to 6 figures doing something I taught myself (computer graphics, among other things).

But I put more of my own time into learning that than I ever would have put into a degree.

Anyway, college is a very nice thing and I'd love to finish it simply for the education aspect, but it really isn't necessary to do quite well in the world provided you have some tenacity and self-discipline.

Methinks mssmith is correct in that people who decide to skip college and go straight into the workforce are doing themselves a disservice. Getting out there and doing some traveling is a much better way to education onesself if one isn't considering formal education.

Personally, I spent most of my teen years traveling around the world, so I wasn't particularly worried about any lack of personal growth.

-n

[Jervoise]

Originally posted by xenothrope
We need farmers,

We need people who arent 'highly educated' in order to make this country work.

Nit: many farmers are highly educated. People do go to university to study agriculture, some even beyond the Bachelors level.

[mr. splitfoot]

Not necessary by any means for everyone. For some, yes.

For instance, me = bartender. Good bar. I make just as much if not more than a lot of my friends who went to college. Is it lawyers or surgeons income? By no means. But I work 4 days a week, make great money, and the most important part is, I have plenty of time to learn on my own. I spend a lot of free time studying, and watching the history/discovery channel, and, of course, visiting the Straight Dope.

I also have a friend who works as a scientist for AT&T. Extremely intelligent, never went to college. Says his workmates refer to him as "the guy without the PhD"

But college, I think, is definately good for lots of people, especially those who have no idea what they want. Personally, I kew what I wanted. I fun job I could make good money at & have plenty of time to read about the things I LIKE on my own. Aka bartending in big city.

[Earthworm Jim]

Well, as most everyone has addressed the "necessary for success" angle, I'll tackle the "necessary for continued learning" angle.

No, college is not necessary. All that's required is a library card (to a decent library), the willpower to sit down and read through your chosen book, and possibly an internet connection for those inevitable times you can't make heads or tails of what you've just read. When that happens, post it to GQ

Obviously, YMMV

[Blackeyes]

Originally posted by Beelzebubba
Well, as most everyone has addressed the "necessary for success" angle, I'll tackle the "necessary for continued learning" angle.

No, college is not necessary. All that's required is a library card (to a decent library), the willpower to sit down and read through your chosen book, and possibly an internet connection for those inevitable times you can't make heads or tails of what you've just read. When that happens, post it to GQ

Good Will Hunting!

[5-HT]

personally I think everyone should try to go to college. Also, if possible do it right after HS if you can. I went and dropped out. I want to go back now(2 years later), and let me tell you, going back when you've settled into the full time employment thing, is not easy to do.

[Neidhart]

I agree with Tamex and Beelzebubba. I think Germany has the right idea. It's a mistaken concept of democracy to try to force everybody, no matter what their inclinations or intelligence, to attend university if they are to have any chance at all of getting a job.

[Mith]

Is college necassary for everyone.... to.... what?

be happy? no.
live a fufilled life? no.
get a job they are happy doing? no.
be respected? no.
learn more about themselves, and the world around them? no.
make large sums of money? no.


your question is too vague to be answered properly.

[msmith537]

A couple of people posted that college is only necessary if you want to pursue a career that requires a structured degree. For example: engineering, accounting, medicine, law, architecture, and so on.

I'm curious as to what decent job people feel do not require a college degree or at the very least some sort of vocational training.

IMHO, any job that does not require advanced skills or education is a job that anyone can do. And if its a job that anyone can do, you aren't going to get paid that much money for doing it. Now some people (for whatever reason) have decided they have an aversion to money or success, but the fact is most people work so they can live comfortably and raise a family. In spite of romanticised notions of the nobility of poverty and the evils of pursuing wealth, most of us are happier when we don't have to live paycheck to paycheck (even if we choose to live modestly).

Now people have mentioned jobs like bartender or computer related jobs that they can make a great deal of money at. I find it hard to believe that this is more than anecdotal evidence. First of all, competition for computer jobs is a lot stiffer than it was a few years ago, so if you don't already have a degree or several years experience, good luck trying to find one,

Second, I've heard bartenders brag they can make X dollars a night working a trendy bar in a big city. Problem is 1) that best night is not typical of every night and 2) you have to pay big city rent. For every bartender making a decent living working a hot $20 martini nightclub there are probably 100 making barely minimum wage schlepping Bud Lights to drunk frat guys on Thursday night. Not exactly a great career decision.