Let's justify blatant racism! (or: shove your strawmen up your ass!!!)

[CuriousCanuck]

This is a glowing example of some of the shit I get in my in box from supposedly intelligent friends and colleagues. How can people so intelligent be so fucking ignorant? Anyway, the following is a copy of an email forward that many of you have probably received as well. I am so livid right now at the blatant racism in our society today, I am not even sure where to begin ranting. OK, I know a good start: to the author that wrote this thought provoking piece, either remove your head from your ass to get a better world view or shove it up a lot farther so your neck breaks and you die suffocating on the shit you are intent on polluting the world with. Anyway, without further ado, here is the offensive piece of trash:

[quote]Please pause a moment, reflect back, and take the following Multiple Choice test. (The events are actual cuts from past history. They really happened!)

Do you remember?

1. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by:
a. Olga Corbitt
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwartzeneger
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


2. In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
a. Lost Norwegians
b. Elvis
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.


3. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
a. John Dillinger
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


4. In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


5. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old
American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:
a. The Smurfs
b. Davy Jones
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


6. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver
trying to rescue passengers was murdered by:
a. Captain Kidd
b. Charles Lindberg
c. Mother Teresa
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


7. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
a. Scooby Doo
b. The Tooth Fairy
c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


8. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
a. Richard Simmons
b. Grandma Moses
c. Michael Jordan
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


9. In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
a. Mr. Rogers
b. Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems
c. The World Wrestling Federation
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


10. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to
take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into
the US Pentagon and the other was diverted to a crash by the passengers.
Thousands of people were killed by:
a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd
b. The Supreme Court of Florida
c. Mr. Bean
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


11. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
a. Enron
b. The Lutheran Church
c. The NFL
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


12. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
a. Bonny and Clyde
b. Captain Kangaroo
c. Billy Graham
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


No... I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you?

So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics intent
on killing us, airport security screeners will not be allowed to profile
certain people. They must continue to conduct random searches of 80-year-old
women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, Secret
Service agents who are members of the President's security detail, 85-year
old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal of Honor winning former
Governors.

Let's send this to as many people as we can so that the Gloria Allreds
dunder headed Federal Justices that want to thwart common sense feel doubly
ashamed of themselves.

As the writer of the award winning story Forest Gump so aptly put it,
"Stupid is as stupid does!"
QUOTE]


Fucking ignorant fucks.

[UrbanChic]

Oh, please. Everyone knows Scooby Doo bombed Pan Am flight 103.

[Profane Creation]

OK, so, what are your specific complaints with this (I think it's a safe assumption that you have multiple issues with this)?

We shouldn't lean our enforcement efforts to "choice d?"

[I'm not trying to be facetious here....]

[CuriousCanuck]

Profane please don't tell me you are falling in the trap.

Why not make one up ourselves in another direction (and I could easily make up more)

Who was responsible for the Oklahoma City Bombing?

a) Ron Jeremy
b) Cecil Adams
c) Kermit the Frog
d) A disgruntled white guy between the ages of 17 and 40


Guess we should make sure that all white guys travelling in the US should get treated like criminals.

[Profane Creation]

That fucking Cecil - I knew it!!!!!

[Ben Hicks]

Why not make one up ourselves in another direction (and I could easily make up more)

Please make up more.

[Cheesesteak]

Canuck, honestly, if another big terrorist attack is planned and attempted in the US, my money would be on it coming from (d). Sure, some white kids might shoot up a school, or a wacko will send a letter bomb, but we KNOW that there's a group of 'extremist muslims' out there looking to get us good.

When it comes to airport security, I'd rather they use methods that consider likely sources of attack, instead of straight up randomness. I would prefer THOUGHT be put into the process, and the best process available to us be used. If that is random checks, then so be it, but I don't want it to be a feel-good choice, just to say we're not racist.

[skankweirdall]

Well, if it isn't the Dutch then who is it?

[World Eater]

Fuck, there was a great thread about 6 months back and some Doper busted in with a cop in the neighborhood analagy that nailed it perfectly.

Damn memory.

[tdn]

Originally posted by CuriousCanuck
Who was responsible for the Oklahoma City Bombing?

a) Ron Jeremy
b) Cecil Adams
c) Kermit the Frog
d) A disgruntled white guy between the ages of 17 and 40

Since the guy who did it was a big prick, I'm going with a).

[Ethilrist]

Who's responsible for the massacre at Glencoe?

a) Duncan McLeod
b) Sean Connery
c) Wyatt Earp
d) A bunch of Campbells between the ages of 17 and 40.

Who's responsible for the massacre at Little Big Horn?

a) King Tut
b) Aristophanes
c) Ma Barker
d) A bunch of native americans between the ages of 17 and 40.

[gobear]

Originally posted by CuriousCanuck
Profane please don't tell me you are falling in the trap.

Why not make one up ourselves in another direction (and I could easily make up more)

Who was responsible for the Oklahoma City Bombing?

a) Ron Jeremy
b) Cecil Adams
c) Kermit the Frog
d) A disgruntled white guy between the ages of 17 and 40


Guess we should make sure that all white guys travelling in the US should get treated like criminals.

Looks like a 12 to 1 ratio of Muslim violence to white right winger violence.

Not that that justifies profiling, but I get tired of Tim McVeigh being brought up every time Islamic extremism is discussed. We should NOT practice racial discrimination, but let's also address the fact that there is much more danger of terrorism from the MidEast at the moment than from crazy white guys (if you don't count the present administration in that category).

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Who blew up an abortion clinic and set off a bomb at the olympics in Atlanta?

Who shot and killed a random black couple to earn a spiderweb tattoo?

What cult leader and child molester instigated a mass suicide in Waco, Texas?

Do I really have to go on and on with every instance of anti-abortion terrorism, white racist terrorism, anti-gay terrorism, etc. in the last twenty years or so?

[NurseCarmen]

Those darn extremists are so easy to pick out, that wacky hair, those dirty dusty clothes, kalashnikov rifles, and a wild look in their eyes. I have no qualms with Airport security stopping and questioning those who fit all of the above descriptions.

[World Eater]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Who blew up an abortion clinic and set off a bomb at the olympics in Atlanta?

Who shot and killed a random black couple to earn a spiderweb tattoo?

What cult leader and child molester instigated a mass suicide in Waco, Texas?

Knowing you, the answer is GWB.

[Jackmannii]

I'm still trying to figure out how a piece of e-mail proves "the blatant racism in our society today".

Oh ye who stereotype...

[World Eater]

Originally posted by NurseCarmen
Those darn extremists are so easy to pick out, that wacky hair, those dirty dusty clothes, kalashnikov rifles, and a wild look in their eyes. I have no qualms with Airport security stopping and questioning those who fit all of the above descriptions.

Yes like Richard Reid, who even Ray Charles would have stopped.

[NurseCarmen]

Originally posted by World Eater
Yes like Richard Reid, who even Ray Charles would have stopped.

Nope. 3 out of 4 though. IIRC Dicky the shoe wasn't carrying a kalashnakov.

Or was he? Has anyone checked the overhead bin?

[The Scrivener]

CuriousCanuck: that quiz you reproduced isn't really a strawman argument. (It's not really an argument at all; more like a bittersweet satire of PC cavilling at what I consider to be necessary law-enforcement measures.)

Not to mention the obvious elephant in the room here -- the only clear-cut case of racism here is that held by the terrorists -- against Jews and Americans (and to a lesser degree, probably all Christians/Westerners/Anglo-Saxon types). So go ahead and publicize the quiz (which reads like vintage National Lampoon material, BTW) -- you're just underscoring the growing American general consensus that "Muslim male extremists..." are indeed a mortal threat to all of us.

Just curious, ya dumb schmuck, about how you'd react to the following scenario:

"AP -- U.S. and Israeli intelligence sources report that there has been increased 'chatter' in Arab terrorist circles which refer to a 20-kiloton nuclear weapon purportedly already smuggled into the Montreal area.

According to a high-level State Department source, the info has been conveyed to the Canadian government..."

***** *********** *******

Would you really want for your local law-enforcement authorities to not focus on male Muslim extremists?

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Americans are a "race?"

[NurseCarmen]

They shouldn't focus on Male Muslim pacafists. Or male muslim Insurance agents. Or Giraffes. I think that's about it.

[TwistofFate]

I'd rather the law enforcements take a rational approach to all suspect activity, not just focus on a persons appearance on the offchance that they are extremists.

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Before you say anything more stupid (you know who you are), please review the FBI terrorist alerts for the past several years. You will find that if a 12:1 ratio exists, it is in the direction of 12 white assholes to 1 "muslim male extremist between 17 and 40." Don't think Timothy McVeigh is a fair example (although he committed arguably the second worst act of terrorism on US soil), how about the unibomber, the smiley face mailbox bomber, the bombing of the abortion clinic, Columbine, the derailing of the Amtrak Train in 1995, the alleged Anthrax mail guy, the mass shooting in Georgia 2 years ago... these are off the top of my head, but if you want to go back to '72, we can make one hell of a list. White people commit plenty of mass murders, violent acts and other atrocities right here in America. If you aren't sure what the racist element of the shit presented in the OP is, you are beyond help.

[Amok]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Americans are a "race?"

Possibly. It depends on how you use the word. From dictionary.com:

1) A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
2) A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.
3) A genealogical line; a lineage.
4) Humans considered as a group.

We may not have as much history as the Germans, but I think a case can be made for definition two. Of course, "race" in the context of "racism" usually refers to definition one, but there's really no word, that I can think of, that applies just to hating a people because of their nationality, since "bigot" and "xenophobe" qualify, but they're broader than just that.

[Yumanite]

The thing with profiling is that it's not just who you pick out to profile, but what you plan to do to them that you don't do to everyone else. And how ready you are to presume guilt before evidence is found.

The email in the OP does represent a strawman. It addresses only the aspect of who is being singled out, and in a pithy way makes the case that this is justified. However, I think many people who warn against racial profiling are more concerned with the intensity of guilt presumption against those profiled.

In other words, while male muslim extremists are certainly more likely than some other people to be terrorists, if you start treating an individual in that category as if he is a terrorist simply on the basis of his age, skin color, and religion than you are being racist and violating his rights. This goes above and beyong having his luggage searched more carefully. If that were the only consequence of profiling then I don't think it would worry people the way it does.

[Jackmannii]

Originally posted by Hentor the Barbarian
...you know who you are...

Aw c'mon, Hentor, don't leave us in suspense. Let 'er rip.

This is the Pit, not some Methodist lawn party.

[Giraffe]

No, no -- I think that email makes good sense. And we should apply it to other problems as well. Why, if you compile a selective list of people robbed and/or murdered in various urban areas, you would quickly see that this specific list of crimes were always perpetrated by young black males with illegal, concealed handguns.

Clearly, if one sees a young black man, one should take defensive action. Call the police! Run for your life! Common sense tells us that there is a very good chance he has an illegal concealed handgun with which he will rob and/or kill you. It's sad that we Americans are so bent on being "PC" that we force police to waste their time stopping the cars of white people, when they could be so much more effective if they focused all their efforts on detaining and searching young black men for illegal, concealed handguns.

[Weirddave]

While it would be foolish to ignore the trend put forth in the OP, it would be even more foolish to forget that many "Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40" are white. I don't see how it's a very useful thing to know, even if it was know without exception that the only people who would commit terrorist attacks were "Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40" ( which I'm not saying at all ), how are you going to tell them apart from the general population?

[wring]

Originally posted by Jackmannii
This is the Pit, not some Methodist lawn party.

::sadly packing away the picnic basket, apple pie, gingham napkins and lemonade::

[Kallisti]

Who murdered Robert Kennedy?

Sirhan Sirhan, on behalf of Palestine.

On the street, we know what these guys look like by now. All the rest is just PC posturing.

[CuriousCanuck]

Originally posted by Jackmannii
I'm still trying to figure out how a piece of e-mail proves "the blatant racism in our society today".

Oh ye who stereotype...

Why not re-read my OP to see that in fact, this is but one example. Also, if you cannot see the blatant racism inherent within the example, then might I suggest again that you re-read it since obviously you only skimmed it and took one line to quote without fully considering what exactly it was you were saying.

[Giraffe]

Originally posted by Kallisti
On the street, we know what these guys look like by now. All the rest is just PC posturing.

That's right! There's no justice like mob justice. And if you accidentally harrass a few Indian Sikhs, well they shouldn't have brown skin and be wearing turbans in the first place, what with the Robert Kennedy assassination and all.

[wring]

Originally posted by Kallisti
Who murdered Robert Kennedy?

Sirhan Sirhan, on behalf of Palestine.

On the street, we know what these guys look like by now. All the rest is just PC posturing.

let's not forget that famous Muslim, Lee Harvey Oswald who killed John F. Kennedy.

Or the famouse male Muslim, Lynette Squeeky Fromme who took a shot at RR.

or the Arab fundementalist John Hinckley Jr. who did the same thing.

By george, you're right! we can tell jus' by lookin at 'em.

but remember 'don't shoot til ya see the white of their eyes'

[Protesilaus]

Originally posted by wring
Or the famouse male Muslim, Lynette Squeeky Fromme who took a shot at RR.

Small nitpick: she shot at Ford, not Reagan.

[wring]

oops. you're correct. (and there I was worried about how to spell "Regan" "Reagan"??)

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Americans are a "race?"

Muslim extremists are a "race"?

[Cervaise]

Originally posted by CuriousCanuck
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

"Muslim" isn't a race.

That in and of itself demonstrates how idiotic the email is. Next time somebody can tell a Presbyterian from a Methodist by looking at 'em, let me know, because that individual will be qualified to profile "Muslims."

[black rabbit]

Originally posted by Kallisti
Who murdered Robert Kennedy?

Sirhan Sirhan, on behalf of Palestine.

On the street, we know what these guys look like by now. All the rest is just PC posturing.

Which explains all the Sikhs that were murdered right after 9/11.

A towelhead's a towelhead, right?

Chump.

[gobear]

Originally posted by Jackmannii
Aw c'mon, Hentor, don't leave us in suspense. Let 'er rip.

This is the Pit, not some Methodist lawn party.

Me, he's talking about me! (I fel so loved!)

Of course, the idiot ignores that I said profiling is bad and we shouldn't focus on religion or ethnicity, but we should also not ignore the very real threat of Islamic extremism. Saying that "white guys are the real problem" does not address the threat we face from terrorist groups who are, I promise, out to get us.

I think we should handle things the way the Israelis do: ask every passenger questions, lead away the ones who don't check out for more focused questioning.

We're not looking for appearnace, but intent. The sad thing is that some of you, like Hentor and Wring, are as bad as rabid right wingers.

They assume that an Arab face must hide evil intent; you think that an Arab face must not be checked for intent.

Me, I go for the middle path-not to be fooled into racism on the hand or to overcompensate by pretending the problem does not exist.

[wring]

'scuse me gobear?

where in the fuck do you get that?

To fucking spell it out for you (again, seems to me we did this exact same fucking thread before) the term "fundementalist muslim male between these ages" does not allow you to physically profile people effectively.

It does, however, allow you to single out males of the appropriate age, and focus on men with dark hair and dark eyes.

I'll wait here while you describe for me physical traits which allow some one to correctly ascertain some one's religion.

ok?

[Hauky]

Originally posted by CuriousCanuck
Also, if you cannot see the blatant racism inherent within the example,

Now I can't get "Come see the violence inherent in the system!" out of my head.

[The Scrivener]

Well put, Gobear.

*****

[sigh] I wish I'd said "bigotry" or "hatred" instead of "racism" -- although "racism" does hold up pretty well vis-a-vis anti-Semitism.

Is there a single word that captures the religous chauvanism of a group that disdainfully dismisses all non-Muslims as "infidels"? Because that's an appellation that's very commonly tossed about in the overlapping Arab/Muslim worlds. If that isn't a classic example of entrenched, structural bigotry, I don't know what is.

[wring]

settling down a bit - gobear - I still don't get why you're singling me out here. My point is that you cannot reasonably profile the phrase "fundementalist muslim male extremists between these ages" by physical traits. and of course, which was the point of the email in the OP. repeating the phrase over and over.

there is no way to accurately profile some one's religion by physical traits.

I agree that asking routine questions of all passengers, makes sense.

however, that in no way singles out "fundementalist male muslims " etc. and repeating that phrase over and over again as if it's the solution to 'the terrorist problem' is wrong and has dire consequences for the world.

[akennett]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic

What cult leader and child molester instigated a mass suicide in Waco, Texas?

Janet Reno. But I didn't know she was a child molester. I'll have to add that to my list of bad things she did.

[gobear]

Originally posted by wring
'scuse me gobear?

where in the fuck do you get that?

To fucking spell it out for you (again, seems to me we did this exact same fucking thread before) the term "fundementalist muslim male between these ages" does not allow you to physically profile people effectively.

If you would bother to read my post, you'll note I made that same point. Focussing on religion and ethnicity is counter-productive. That does not mean that there is no way to effectively profile for terrorists. Look for associations and travel patterns, for example.

It does, however, allow you to single out males of the appropriate age, and focus on men with dark hair and dark eyes.

On the one hand, checking out all men from Arab countries leaves out women, or converts, like the Latino gangbanger convert who wanted to detonate a dirty bomb. On the other hand, it's stupid to pretend that the terrorists do not all look similar to one another.

Sugar, look at Khalidh Sheik Mohammed. Look at Mohammed Atta. Look at Osama bin Laden. Notice any blondes?

I'll wait here while you describe for me physical traits which allow some one to correctly ascertain some one's religion.

And I'll wait here while you
A. Apologise for the garbage you falsely attributed to me.

B. Acknowledge that you there is a problem with Islamic terrorism.

C. Agree that we should look at intent than area of birth of religion.

Again, I think that profiling only by ethnic origin is tupid, but at the same time let's admit we're not looking at Swedes as equally as we are at Saudis.

[Blalron]

Muslims are not limited to people of Arabic descent. There could be Asian Muslims, or Black Muslims, or even White Blond Blue Eyed muslim extremists. How can you tell which is which just by looking at them?

[Mojo]

Originally posted by wring
I'll wait here while you describe for me physical traits which allow some one to correctly ascertain some one's religion.

Lack of foreskin.

[gobear]

however, that in no way singles out "fundementalist male muslims " etc. and repeating that phrase over and over again as if it's the solution to 'the terrorist problem' is wrong and has dire consequences for the world.

Looking at male Muslims is stupid and counter-productive. Looking at fundamentalist Muslims (not only males) is a start, although still very rudimentary and prone to error.

[gobear]

Originally posted by Blalron
Muslims are not limited to people of Arabic descent. There could be Asian Muslims, or Black Muslims, or even White Blond Blue Eyed muslim extremists. How can you tell which is which just by looking at them?

Again, one more time for folks in the back not paying attention. Profiling ONLY by race will trap many more innocent people than it will the guilty. But ignoring ethnicity altogether is just as counter-productive. Men from Saudi Arabia are not necessarily terrorists--99.999 percent are not--but Saudis are FAR more likely to be terrorists than are Finns or Swedes or Argentineans.

[Phoenix Dragon]

I think this is about the third time I've seen that particular load of crap on this MB. And every time, there are still people defending it.

I'll again refer to my first post on the subject, found in this thread.

To sum it up, I can find more examples of terrorism than that 12-point list from one of several different countries, without even covering more than a decade, instead of the just-over three decades of that list. For every terrorist act perpetrated by muslims, I can cite many more performed by non-muslims... Easily more per region, and possibly even more in a single country. Cites included in the above post. While muslims make a nice stereotypical "face" for terrorism, they are far from being the "main threat" of terrorism. They're just an easy "them".