Non-Phoenician alphabets?

I’ve often read, stated as a well-established historical fact, that all phonetic alphabets ever used by human beings have derived ultimately from the ancient Phoenician alphabet. The Greek alphabet and the Hebrew alphabet grew out of direct cultural contact with the Phoenicians. The Roman and Cyrillic alphabets both derived from the Greek. The Arabic alphabet is, I suppose, derived from the Hebrew. Even the strange-looking Norse runes apparently derived from Roman letters, which derived from Greek letters, which derived from Phoenician.

But is it really true that no culture has ever invented a phonetic script without any direct or indirect influence from the Phoenicians? I know the Korean language uses a phonetic alphabet and I’m pretty sure it was devised artificially, in the 14th or 15th century, by assigning phonetic values to some of the ideograms then in use, which presumably derived from Chinese ideograms, which owe nothing to the Phoenicians. And I once saw a table of Sanskrit letters with their phonetic values. (Pretty systematic, too – if I was reading it right, the letter representing the voiced “b” sound was identical to the letter representing the unvoiced “p” sound, except for a single little curlicue. That’s the way it should be, dammit! Even the International Phonetic Alphabet isn’t that graphically systematic!) If Sanskrit uses a phonetic script, it’s hard to believe the letters derived from the Phoenician; how would the Phoenician influence have traveled east to India? The Phoenicians, Carthaginians, etc., sailed pretty far, around Africa by some accounts, but I never heard they sailed as far as India. And I think the oldest Sanskrit religious texts, the Rig-Veda, Mahabharata and Baghavad-Gita, predate the Phoenician alphabet, although I’m not certain about that.

You might begin searching this on www.omniglot.com. Additionally, I think your description of Korea’s alphabet better describes the derivation of Japan’s kana. The kana are variants of the Kanji. Hangul (of Korea) is supposed to represent the particular manipulation of the speech organs to produce the sound represented.

Forgot to say something:

Mighty interesting question.

The Korean alphabet was invented by Koreans who knew about the western alphabets. So the glyphs (which according to my informant represent the shape of the mouth when pronouncing the letter) are not derived from the Phonecian (although even that is misleading), but the idea of an alphabet was. I have also read that the alphabet has never been invented, in the sense that someone sat down and said let us represent each sound (rather, say, than each consonant+vowel, loosely called a syllabary) by a character. What actually happened was more interesting. Essentially, one language began with hieroglyphs, from which a syllabary was derived by using a character to represent the first syllable of the word. This was borrowed into a Semitic language (Phonecian or an ancestor) which dropped the vowels presumably because the vowels in semitic languages are used to represent inflections. But they also had both a glottal and pharyngeal stop as well as a rough and smooth h, none of which are present in Greek. As well, they had a semi-vowel, the yod, which was represented and one more letter, the vav, that alternated between o, oo, and v sounds. So when the Greeks borrowed this alphabet, they modified it by letting the glottal and pharyngeal stops represent a and o, respectively, the two h’s represent the long and short e, the yod represent the i and the vav represent the u sound. Later on the j evolved from as an initial i, then changed sound and similarly with the u and v (and then the w and y as further variants). The point is that had the Greeks found a syllabary, they would presumably have adopted that. So which of these various groups actually invented the alphabet? None of the really, it just evolved as a result of a series of historical accidents. And any other alphabet was created by people who already understood the idea of an alphabet.

Explain? What are you talking about? Citation? Yes, vowels in semitic verbs are indicative of inflection, but is it necessary that this be the reason that semitic languages “dropped” the vowels when adopting “hieroglyphic” sound symbols?

The yod and the waw are not “semi-vowels;” they are consonants that, along with *he[/h], began to represent certain long vowels under certain circumstances much later than Greek’s development of it’s alphabet.

Also, the ‘h,’ when it represents a vowel in semitic languages, represents a long /a/ sound, not a long /e/. If Greek had taken it’s alphabet from semitics, it would have had to have done so before the usage of matres lectionis had developed.

On the other hand, it could be that I am misunderstanding you.

At any rate, Hari, can we solve our differences with a Twisting match? :wink: Great name! Best books ever!

-Nate

Same post with corrected formatting. My apologies.

quote:

Originally posted by Hari Seldon
This was borrowed into a Semitic language (Phonecian [sic] or an ancestor) which dropped the vowels presumably because the vowels in semitic languages are used to represent inflections.

Explain? What are you talking about? Citation? Yes, vowels in semitic verbs are indicative of inflection, but is it necessary that this be the reason that semitic languages “dropped” the vowels when adopting “hieroglyphic” sound symbols?
quote:

As well, they had a semi-vowel, the yod, which was represented and one more letter, the vav, that alternated between o, oo, and v sounds.

The yod and the waw are not “semi-vowels;” they are consonants that, along with he, began to represent certain long vowels under certain circumstances much later than Greek’s development of its alphabet.

Also, the ‘h,’ when it represents a vowel in semitic languages, represents a long /a/ sound, not a long /e/. If Greek had taken it’s alphabet from semitics, it would have had to have done so before the usage of matres lectionis had developed.

On the other hand, it could be that I am misunderstanding you.

At any rate, Hari, can we solve our differences with a Twisting match? Great name! Best books ever!

-Nate

The OP does have some truth to it. All the ancient alphabets I know of (with two or three exceptions) have some connection to ancient Semitic script, which was developed by adapting some Egyptian hieroglyphs to make the Sinaitic script which was the precursor of Phoenician.

One exception is the Ancient Persian alphabet used in the Behistun inscriptions, which borrowed cuneiform characters from Mesopotamia and used them phonetically.

Another is the Tifinagh script used by ancient Lybico-Berber peoples, which has survived in use until today by the Tuareg of the Sahara. I don’t know how it started, but it does not seem to have any connection to Phoenician.

Epigraphic South Arabian (ESA) used in Himyaritic inscriptions in ancient Yemen does not have much resemblance to Phoenician letters that I can tell. Perhaps some ESA letters were borrowed from the same North Semitic source as Phoenician, while others were invented in Yemen. ESA is the direct ancestor of Ethiopic syllabic script still used in Ethiopia and Eritrea today.

Middle Persian was written with an Aramaic alphabet descended from the same source as the Phoenician. Alphabet borrowing across Asia went like this:

Aramaic > Pahlavi > Sogdian > Uyghur > Mongolian > Manchu

So the Aramaic alphabet traveled clear across the continent of Asia, from the Mediterranean to the Yellow Sea, in premodern times. Must have had something going for it.

I would not say that the Arabic alphabet was “derived from Hebrew.” Rather, both alphabets came from a common ancient Semitic source. The immediate ancestor of the Arabic alphabet was the Nabatean script. You can find resemblance between Arabic and Hebrew letter shapes, especially if you go back to the earliest forms of Kufic Arabic writing, and especially if you squint hard and look sideways.

Little-known fact: What we nowadays call the “Hebrew alphabet,” the square-letter thing, is in reality the ancient Aramaic alphabet that was borrowed for use with Hebrew. The real ancient Hebrew alphabet was the same as Phoenician.

The Devanagari alphabet used for writing Sanskrit is a relatively recent development. It is descended from an ancient alphabet called Brahmi, which in turn seems to have been based upon Aramaic. Brahmi is the ancestor of all the Indian alphabets, in addition to Tibetan and the alphabets of Southeast Asia.

Prior to the adoption of Brahmi script in India, the Vedas were oral literature going back to immeasurably ancient prehistoric origins. Yes, they were all memorized and recited aloud. An enormous amount of memorization, but without the crutch of writing, ancient peoples managed to memorize gigantic oral epics.

The Orkhon Turkic runes used in 6th-7th century inscriptions probably had an Aramaic basis too. These runes, unconnected to Germanic runes, survived in use by the Székely people of Hungary until the 19th century.

The Korean alphabet introduced by King Sejong was invented independently of all these alphabets derived from ancient Semitic writing. It is truly original.

In modern times, several alphabets have been invented that have no connection to ancient Semitic. Joseph Smith invented a weird Mormon alphabet.

A gentleman in 20th-century Somalia named Osman invented the Osmani alphabet, which he proposed for writing the Somali language. It was not adopted and is now forgotten.

Someone in Africa invented an alphabet for writing Bantu languages, inspired by modern phonetic science, in which the letters are diagrams showing the mouth positions used to articulate the sounds. However, the overall framework of the speech organs remains pretty much the same and the differences are small in relation to the whole picture. This makes it hard to tell the letters apart; they mostly look the same.

The b and p in Devanagari have two completely different forms. You’re thinking of the unaspirated p and the aspirated ph; the latter is differentiated by the extra curly stroke you mentioned.

I was under the impression that the modern Aramaic alphabet was not descended from the “same source” as the Phoenician, but rather that it was descended from Phoenician. Correct me if I’m wrong.

This is mostly true. It depends what you mean by ‘ancient.’ The Aramaic script that is used to represent Hebrew as we know it was not adopted until after (at least) 612 B.C.E. Aramaic used the Phoenician script until then. It is clear, based on comparative evidence, that the Phoenician script was used as a way to represent Hebrew and Aramaic as languages already spoken. The statement, “The real ancient Hebrew alphabet was the same as Phoenician” is misleading. It is not entirely correct to call it “the real ancient Hebrew alphabet.” It was the Phoenician alphabet that the Hebrew speakers used. You are right in saying that the block script was originally Aramaic.

Actually, Brigham Young sponsored the effort after the Church had moved to Utah. The Deseret alphabet was developed by George Watt and others.

I meant the “really” ancient Hebrew alphabet, i.e., more ancient than the square letters.

The Phoenician alphabet did give rise directly to square Aramaic/Hebrew and Greek, but itself was based on earlier antecedents like Proto-Canaanite going to the Sinaitic alphabet. As for the “other” Aramaic alphabet, which was adopted by the Sassanian Persian Empire and spread far and wide, and was used in the Estrangelo and Jacobean versions for writing Syriac, yeah it does look like it came directly from Phoenician.

We should mention Ugaritic, which is a very old cuneiform alphabet invented in Syria, the neighbor of Phoenicia, but unrelated to Phoenician writing. Ugaritic is important in the history of writing because it shows that the concept of the alphabet was early catching on in that region independently of the widely influential Phoenician writing.

As for Tifinagh, I forgot that its name actually refers to Phoenician, so it must have originated from there. No doubt the Carthaginians introduced the idea to North Africa.

Divehi Thanaa is an odd alphabet. The first nine letters are actualy the Arabic numerals 1-9. As for the remainder, they are maybe an indigenous invention of the Maldives.

There was an obscure English professor of languages during the first half of the twentieth century that invented an alphabet like this (not based on phoenecian). It was unfortunately condemned to obscurity by his further invention of new languages to use the alphabet and then an imagined history and legends as background for the languages. Maybe if he hadn’t used, get this, elves, as the speakers of this imaginary language, his ideas might have been known, at least by language (and other kinds of) geeks.

Quercus, are you referring to J.R.R. Tolkein?

I’m pretty sure he was making a joke. I hope. It’s always hard to tell tone of vioce in written correspondence.