The Pit is awesome - it's those Great Debates that suck!

[fessie]

I've seen many people post to the effect that they were afraid of the Pit, they'd heard it was treacherous. Newbies beware, etc. Well, people do get hot & bothered, but it doesn't seem impossible to reach a consensus - at least that's an outcome I've often seen.

But those Great Debates? Balls 'o fire!!!

I'm really trying to understand what people are telling me, and I agree that their view is part of the picture - I agree, I agree, they're right in many ways - but they want the whole pie. It's either entirely their way or nothing. Never mind the millions of people who believe differently - nope, somehow they've got it all figured out. End of story.

If I'd started my SDMB journey there I don't think I'd've bothered to explore further. I've enjoyed what I've learned - including learning from my own mistakes there - but the lack of progress in understanding is discouraging.

[Jpeg Jones]

I concur.

I only go near GD if I'm feeling profound, and I agonize over every post I contribute, getting the wording right, etc.

GD is a tough crowd. I tend to leave my sense of humor at the door.

[Earl of the CC]

Unfortuneately, many posters in Great Debates give in to the natural desperation to never admit they are wrong. Some don't and actually examine things from a new angle and occasionally have a change of mind on an issue. Not common, but people are stubborn sons of bitches...

[Binarydrone]

Can I get a link here? Who do I have to blow in this cockroach molesting place to get a link?

[Binarydrone]

Hey! I tried to put a smilie on that. How odd.

[Gatopescado]

Great Debates is a wasteland of hot air. I fully agree. I hardly ever pop in to see what kind of nonsense is going down.

_______________
Fagjunk Theology: Not just for sodomite propagandists anymore.

[minty green]

Cowards.

[Binarydrone]

Originally posted by Binarydrone
Hey! I tried to put a smilie on that. How odd.

whaaaaaaaaaaat? I seem to be having smilie delay! Yeah, thats it, I would never fuck up the coding.

[Binarydrone]

Seriously though, even in my short time here I have seen a bit of a change in the tone of each forum. GD seems to have become much more rude, for lack of a better term. The Pit, on the other hand, seems to have been hosting its share of threads where folks seem to want to reach consensus and engage in discussion.

[g8rguy]

Harumph. GD is fun and easy. Too many people, admittedly, seem to think that one wins a debate by repeating the same things over and over again, rather than actually addressing other peoples' points, and some people are completely intractable (which, IMHO, means their intellectually bankrupt), but on the whole, I rather like GD.

[matt_mcl]

I used to spend a lot of time in GD. Then I came to the Pit, where people are nicer.

[fessie]

I'm so glad I opened this thread - I didn't want to be a whiny sore loser or something, it's just...arrrrrghhh! If people don't want to listen there's nothing to be done.

The thread to which I was referring asked whether the soul exists. My point boils down to: I have had experiences of my own soul and there are ways I got there & methods that can be used and have been used by people in order to have spiritual experiences. My opponents' view is that unless you can prove something empirically, it doesn't exist.

Big ugly ball of wax, but that's basically it. I forgot how to put in a good thread link, but it's still up in GD right now if you really want to read a lot of infuriating text. I said a few jackass things but on the whole I think I was really reasonable and accommodating. It didn't help.

[Azael]

My opponents' view is that unless you can prove something empirically, it doesn't exist.

Of course that isn't the case, which might explain why you are running into so many problems.

Things exist regardless of whether or not we can currently "prove" them empirically.

However until we have some empirical means of confirming that existence there is no reliable way of telling the difference between something that exists and something that somebody just made up. If you can think of another way then you let me know ok?

That seems to have been the fundamental disconnect in that thread. What you call "spiritual experiences" may have served to personally validate your beliefs in a soul but another person may be just as likely to regard similiar experiences in a "non-spiritual" (or at the very least non-supernatural) light. In an event it is not clear at all that any of the experiences you cite could not have been the result of the physical workings of the human brain. A "feeling" or a "certainty" simply isn't enough to prove the objective existence of something, especially when more reasonable explanations are available.

I'm sorry that your experiences in GD have led you to this point though. It can be unsettling to have some of your most closely held beliefs subject to such strict scrutiny, but that shouldn't prevent you from doing so. If you want to hold your ground then it's a great chance to challenge and sharpen your arguements. In any event, I thought you were doing rather well.

[friedo]

I agree. I used to read and contribute to GD a lot in my earlier (and more hot-headed) days on the board, but got tired of the same old shit over and over again. So I almost never read GD anymore.

The Pit is fun. Not really when someone says or does something stupid and a bandwagon or ten insults him for 50 pages, but when an interesting or funny rant leads to interesting and funny conversation. I think people don't feel they have to push their agenda so hard in such a context.

[SkipMagic]

Great Debates is a fun place in which to hang out; however, if you really want to defend your positions in whatever argument's are currently floatin' about, it takes a lot of t-i-m-e. Regardless of one's contributions, though, it's great fun to read.

Besides, a person can learn quite a bit over there; and if that learning solely encompasses how to present a better argument, then so be it.

As for debates over the metaphysical, the majority of them will boil down to a stand-off between empirical and anecdotal evidence. Or, what was just better said by Azael.

[Francesca]

I used to be horribly intimidated by GD, until I realised that really it's mostly just people admiring their own masterful grip on rhetoric and talking to themselves. Some good work does get done there - cf the tireless work of certain posters to put forth sensible views on religion and really fighting ignorance. But for the most part, it's a lot of hot air.

[rjung]

Some people post in Great Debates because they want to weigh evidence, examine issues from all sides, and try to learn more about the world they live in.

And other folks post in Great Debates because they want to go trollin', but don't want to get flamed when they get called on their bullshit.

GD regulars can provide the names of their favorite Usual Suspects.

[Azael]

As for debates over the metaphysical, the majority of them will boil down to a stand-off between empirical and anecdotal evidence.

See also: Lekatt's Great Trainwreck

[g8rguy]

One important thing to realize is that there's a reason it's called Great Debates: these are arguments that have been around for a long time and haven't been really resolved, so of course we're not likely to resolve them here, either. As such, if you go into GD looking to convince the world that you know The Answer to some particular problem, expect to not convince anyone. I find GD to be quite useful in sharpening my own thinking, but it's not the place to go if you want to establish a consensus on anything.

That said, I don't see it as being full of rude obnoxious twits, either. YMMV, but most of the posters there, at least in the threads that I read, seem to have set positions which they defend vigorously without being vitriolic. Some posters, of course, have the manners of a bear woken in mid-January, which is irritating, but I just ignore them.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

You guys are all just jealous because I'm always right.

[fessie]

Azael I agree with you, my spiritual experiences don't serve to verify someone else's beliefs & can be explained otherwise, even though I don't find them to be such. Thanks for saying my arguments didn't suck.

My question for your more reasonable mind - does the efficacy of something prove existence empirically? A placebo often works, with measurable effect, yet it isn't what people "know" it to be. I thought efficacy of spirituality could be considered proof of existence.

Also, do you agree that knowledge itself is a construct? I remember back in Philo 101 that bit about the blue light on the white wall vs. the blue wall. It seems to me our knowledge was of our experience of blue and not necessarily of the wall itself.

I guess I'm just really skeptical about "knowledge".

[fessie]

(oops, wasn't finished)

You're all so right w/your posts, I really agree.

The thing I treasure about SDMB & reason I'm hooked is that one's intellect is challenged & pummeled, and that's not easy to find; I was going to thank my fellow posters in that thread at several points, but then they'd piss me off again.

I guess I did assume we were working towards a consensus in GD & that was somewhat ridiculous of me.

Gotta check out that trainwreck...

[andros]

I cut my teeth on GD. I still open it up before any other forum, but I don't participate nearly as much as I used to, largely because of the time factor that Skip mentioned.

There have been some world-class hooraws in GD. Jack Dean Tyler got his wings there, as did ARG and Phaedrus. God, really, the most memorable characters from the past four years have arisen to prominence in GD.

Ah, good times, good times.


Since I'm in the mood, though, I'd just like to state for the record that I miss the hell out of Dr. Fidelius.

[Azael]

I guess I'm just really skeptical about "knowledge".

So are most empiricists.

does the efficacy of something prove existence empirically? A placebo often works, with measurable effect, yet it isn't what people "know" it to be. I thought efficacy of spirituality could be considered proof of existence.

Interesting question. I would say that the efficacy of something can lend support for the existance of an "effect." In this case, the "effect" of believing something. The fact that it doesn't seem to matter much what that belief is except that it must inspire some level of confidence is telling IMO. That which is "believed" is not necessarily true or proven, it is entirely subjective. On the other hand the effect of that belief can have limited objective results, but that only tells us about how personal outlook can contribute to our physical and mental condition. That's my take anyway, YMMV.

Also, do you agree that knowledge itself is a construct?

I agree. But this is the very reason why I find the empirical or (at the very least) critical approach to gaining knowledge so useful.

[Siege]

I must be weird again. When I first joined up, GD was my favorite forum and it still is. The standards are tougher there than anywhere else on this board, but I have learned a tremendous amount, and I look forward to continuing to do so. I'd say it's the equivalent of single-malt scotch whiskey or five alarm chili -- it's too strong for a lot of people, but for those of us who love it, everything else can seem a bit bland at times. Of course this is coming from someone who's still a bit skeptical about garlic.

CJ

[PatriotX]

When I first started poking around in The Pit I expected just a bunch of flaming. I actually found some reasonable discussion and debate. Now The Pit is my second SDMB home. GD is my homepage.

I still often feel obliged to use fuck, shit and spammer when in The Pit even though I fully realize that they are optional.

[FranticMad]

Originally posted by SimonX
When I first started poking around in The Pit I expected just a bunch of flaming.

Fuck off.

[FranticMad]

Originally posted by matt_mcl
Then I came to the Pit, where people are nicer.

Shut up.

[FranticMad]

Originally posted by friedo
The Pit is fun

Drop dead.

[Stuffy]

I'll have to agree with Siege I spent my first year here never leaving Great Debates, but posting there is a time drain, so now I cruise, but GD is always the first stop.

[Stuffy]

Hey when did pass 1500 for the second time? Oh, and shit monkeyfuck piss.

[PatriotX]

Originally posted by FranticMad
Fuck off.

Spammer.

[Biggirl]

I've always thought (and posted a few times) that GD was way harder on a poster than the Pit. In the Pit people rant about things that make them angry. In GD people tear apart some of your strongest and dearly held beliefs to shreds-- with cites.

[minty green]

Also, we eat babies. Bwahahahahahaha!

[FranticMad]

Originally posted by SimonX
Spammer.

Oh, now that really hurts. That's just cruel and inhuman. In reference to other threads, I don't mind if you call me a c*** or a f** or a b***der, but not a spammer. I'm leaving and NEVER posting here again.

[SkipMagic]

Originally posted by minty green
Also, we eat babies. Bwahahahahahaha!

Obviously a partisan belief. Can we get a cite for that, please?

Or is this purely anecdotal?

[FranticMad]

Never.

[Dewey Cheatem Undhow]

Originally posted by minty green
Also, we eat babies. Bwahahahahahaha!

Don't forget the puppy kicking and nun molesting.

(Damn I wish I could find that Bloom County where Opus calls into Donahue.)

[celestina]

I haven't had much time of late to get my dope fix in any forum, but hands down, the Pit is the place I love here at the SDMB. That doesn't mean that I don't love and appreciate the other fora, including GD, it's just that I've done so much more in the Pit. I've laughed, cried, giggled, tried to comfort folks, cussed out folks, gotten virtually married in here, flirted, been flirted with, baked virtual pies and cakes and stuff, and, oh yes, ranted. It's one-stop shopping here, and there's something for everyone. Never a dull moment, I say. I do like GD, but I don't have the time to keep up with it as much as I'd like to, and I'm constantly amazed at the regular GDers. How do they keep posting so much there? Do they not sleep or have jobs or something?

[Already in Use]

Originally posted by Binarydrone
Can I get a link here? Who do I have to blow in this cockroach molesting place to get a link?

Me. Open wide.

[I can't believe that's butter!]

I seem to recall posting in GD when I was new here. Good news is, I haven't had a problem with irregularity in ages.....

[PatriotX]

Originally posted by FranticMad
Oh, now that really hurts. That's just cruel and inhuman. In reference to other threads, I don't mind if you call me a c*** or a f** or a b***der, but not a spammer. I'm leaving and NEVER posting here again.

I'm sorry. I apologize. You're not a spammer. You're a c*** or a f** or a b***der.

[dantheman]

Ok, I'll bite. What the heck words are those asterices hiding?

[Gorgon Heap]

When I first came abourd, I tried posting in GD quite a few times in threads that I actually knew stuff about - namely things about wars and the histories thereof.

I was soundly ignored for months.

So now I just come on down to the Pit where nobody will hesitate to say, "Fuck off, Gorgon Heap, your head is so far up your ass your words sound like flatulence."

Ah. Brings a tear to my eye.

[Gorgon Heap]

3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

[Desmostylus]

Origianally posted by dantheman
Ok, I'll bite. What the heck words are those asterices hiding?

cyst, fly, bladder.

And who the fuck is Gorgon Heap?

[fessie]

I like the Pit b/c, in addition to the colorful language and fascinating cast of characters, people actually have an emotional investment in their positions; they're living with it. Whereas in debating something abstractly it's possible to construct all kinds of perfectly respectable logical structures that have no bearing on real life.

That's what got me, and I can't figure out how people have that kind of time for posting either - I felt like I was arguing with some extremely gifted 20-yr-old college students who haven't yet had to use their abstract knowledge to support their humanity.

[dantheman]

I dunno, I think a lot of the GD folk feel they're emotionally invested in a position. Sure comes across that way sometimes.

[Desmostylus]

The Giant Squid Boy, for example.

(Though he hasn't posted for a while.)

[Drastic]

If you've concluded that most GDenizens don't have emotional investment in their positions, I hypothesize you've been reading some other board entirely and confused the two.