With Friends like the S. Baptists, Gays Need No Enemies

[Eve]

PHOENIX (AP) -- The Southern Baptist Convention has started an initiative to "liberate" gays from their homosexuality by befriending them and convincing them they should accept Jesus as their savior. At the denomination's annual meeting, which ends Wednesday night, leaders asked their 42,000 churches to reach out compassionately to gays, focusing on how Christianity can save them. "Homosexuals can find freedom from this sinful, destructive lifestyle," said Richard Land, head of the Southern Baptists' public policy arm. "They can be redeemed. They can be liberated."

But the denomination took pains this year to draw a distinction between themselves and activists like anti-gay pastor Fred Phelps of Topeka, Kan., who travels the country picketing religious meetings and other public events, carrying signs that read, "God Hates Fags." Land insisted Southern Baptists wanted to help gays, and encouraged them to come forward to seek support. "We want you to know that we love you, and more importantly Jesus loves you, and there is a way out," Land said. President Bush addressed the meeting by videotape, calling the Southern Baptists "faithful servants" and asking God to bless them.

[Typo Negative]

Yes, God loves you. But he will burn you forever if you actually make love to the person you attracted to.

[Aries28]

WTF? I hate when people act like this.

"Faithful Servants" ....More like "Radical Fanatics"

I just don't get the notion that people seem to have that they should force their religion or religious beliefs onto anyone else.

At the risk of being jumped on....I am a Baptist and I live in the South, but I absolutely don't hold to most of the SBC's doctrine especially in the last few years....they are getting WAY out there IMO. Of course I dance and drink so that right there is a problem....

A person's life is THAT person's life. I might not agree with it but I don't consider it my holy mission to liberate them.

Geez!!!!!

[Eve]

I say we start an initiative to lure Southern Baptists into homosexuality. "You can be cured of the evil of Southern Baptistity—just gimme a big ol' kiss, you hunka burnin' love!"

Hell, I'm not even gay, but I'll do some Southern Baptist dame just out of sheer orneryness.

[BoBettie]

I saw a sticker that said "I have nothing against God, it's his fan club I can't stand" and that's how I feel about Southern Baptists that are taking this stance. The ignorance is astounding.

[Aries28]

Originally posted by Eve
Hell, I'm not even gay, but I'll do some Southern Baptist dame just out of sheer orneryness.

Note to self: Stay away from Eve when she's ornery....

[Eve]

. . . Now I've got "Oi'm Ornery the Eighth, Oi Am" running through my head . . .

[Ethilrist]

... and here I thought the Southron Babtists were a fun crowd, what with all the pool parties and all...





what?

[gobear]

"Homosexuals can find freedom from this sinful, destructive lifestyle," said Richard Land, head of the Southern Baptists' public policy arm. "They can be redeemed. They can be liberated."

Like Bush liberated Iraq? So we can expect Southern Baptist "Shock and Awe"? Yikes!

And what the frell do they mean by "a sinful, destructive lifestyle"? "Sinful"? <shrugs> "Destructive"? I would very much like to know how my partner and I are destructive to anyone. We work (well, he does; I'm on the dole right now), we pay taxes, we buy groceries, we watch DVDs; how is that destructive?

Look, I don't tell Souther Baptists to pick up the beer cans around their trailers, get library cards, or stop wearing polyester, so why do they feel they have the right to tell me how to live? Haven't those shitstains ever heard of "live and let live"?

How odd is it that Bush denounces rule by mullahs in Iran when he endorses it in the US?

[RTFirefly]

Originally posted by Zette
I saw a sticker that said "I have nothing against God, it's his fan club I can't stand" and that's how I feel about Southern Baptists that are taking this stance. The ignorance is astounding.

Boy howdy, I'd love to get my hands on one of those stickers.

What's really twisted about this SBC initiative is the way it completely perverts the meaning of friendship. When you "befriend" someone for the purpose of using them to accomplish some agenda of your own, that isn't friendship.

One doesn't use friends. With rare exceptions, one doesn't assume one is better situated to tell them how to run their life than they are themselves. And one certainly doesn't make friends with an eye towards changing them.

If they have such a screwed-up idea of what friendship is, how can they possibly have a clue about love?

[carrot]

Originally posted by gobear
And what the frell do they mean by "a sinful, destructive lifestyle"?

Isn't it obvious? Just by existing, you destroy "moral fiber". Just like drugs, drinking, dancing, living in sin, profanity, skirts that are more than one inch above the knee, and anything invented after 1926.

However, since we have all these things which seem to destroy "moral fiber", prehaps we could make it a bit easier, and come up with a "moral fiber" substitute. Y'know, like nylon, except in an ethical sense.

[Neurotik]

Originally posted by spooje
Yes, God loves you. But he will burn you forever if you actually make love to the person you attracted to.

Sometimes a little tough love is needed to straighten a person out.






Straighten. Get it? Get it? That's a joke, son.

[Aries28]

Originally posted by gobear
Look, I don't tell Souther Baptists to pick up the beer cans around their trailers, get library cards, or stop wearing polyester,

FTR....I drink my beer from a bottle. I don't live in a trailer. I have a library card. Wearing polyester? Yuck! I cuss like a sailor sometimes. And as my dear husband can attest to, my skirts are more than an inch above my knee. Hmmpph. I even DARE to wear 2 piece bathing suits!!!

Hey...maybe I'm not a Baptist after all???


But seriously, I'm with you guys on this one....I don't think the SBC needs to befriend anyone to try and "win them over" or whatever.....

Let people live the way they want to. If they are wrong, then so be it. If you are....so be it. But stay out of everybody's business and don't mount some campaign to convert everybody!

[Eve]

That's why I always differentiate between "Baptist" and "Southern Baptist." it's the "Southern" that seems to send them over the edge, somehow.

But you can always rely on the Southern Baptists, Al Sharpton, PETA, Jack Chick, Fred Phelps, Michael Moore, etc., to periodically come out with the same hilarious routines they've been pulling since Hector was a pup, to brighten up our day.

[jkusters]

If you want to know how destructive the "lifestyle" is, all you have to do is look up Paul Cameron's work. As I understand it, we (gay men) all die by age 35 (eeeks, I'm two years overdue!), our community is the only thing keeping the "adult diaper" companies in business, and the simple act of affection between members of the same sex causes AIDS (never mind those pesky virus thingies). So, I can see why they're so concerned!

Having been the victim of several attempts at conversion, warding them off is usually fairly easy. See, you get them to agree with you that it is impossible for God to make a mistake, then you show them the first two chapters of Genesis, where God makes the earth twice in different orders. Usually blows their minds and they wander off shaking their heads. (Well, usually...)

JOhn.

[Little Plastic Ninja]

Devil's advocate here...

Isn't it better that they aren't advocating, say, kicking your gay son out of the house? They certainly mean better than Fred Phelps.

Isn't it a majorly Christian thing to welcome your neighbors in, no matter their sin? Aren't they being told to be, well, singularly Christian?

Now I know I sure as hell don't want to be preached to, converted, told "Your life is sinful, darlin', and we don't approve, but we just pray that God will show you the light." I get that crap for not being Christian.

But it's a damn sight better than getting the crap beaten out of you, in my opinion.

Just my $0.02. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone was nice?

[Eve]

That's true, I guess a good poke in the nose is better than a knee in the balls . . .

[Lord Ashtar]

Originally posted by gobear
Look, I don't tell Southern Baptists to pick up the beer cans around their trailers, get library cards, or stop wearing polyester, so why do they feel they have the right to tell me how to live?

Perhaps they make similar generalizations about you.

[Little Plastic Ninja]

Originally posted by jkusters
the simple act of affection between members of the same sex causes AIDS (never mind those pesky virus thingies). So, I can see why they're so concerned!

Aw, fuck! You mean that girl I kissed in college gave me AIDS?

Shit! I knew I wasn't feeling well!

I felt good at the time, though. She was mighty cute.

Affection? Does that include, like, hugging your best friend? Wrestling with your sister? Shit.

And it's pretty amazing that this is all happening NOW, considering how many times men have shown great affection to one another, and ditto women.

Must be delayed reaction.

[gobear]

Originally posted by Lord Ashtar
Perhaps they make similar generalizations about you.

Hey, asshole, they DO! Didn't you read the fucking OP? I'm sinful and destructive! What, I don't get to retaliate?

[Mockingbird]

Originally posted by gobear
Hey, asshole, they DO! Didn't you read the fucking OP? I'm sinful and destructive! What, I don't get to retaliate?

You are such a paradox.

You can snarl at someone over this, and yet when it comes to posters of bannings past such as JoeCool, who have levelled homophobic bile, you've almost bent backwards to defend them.

So, if it's a group that does this, it's bad. When it is the individual spewing hate, you have to stand up for them?

Either you find it intolerable to be an object of derision that needs to be redeemed*, or you find it acceptable.


* Homosexual Redemption Rate in Oregon: 15 cents

[Elza B]

Originally posted by gobear
Like Bush liberated Iraq? So we can expect Southern Baptist "Shock and Awe"? Yikes!

And what the frell do they mean by "a sinful, destructive lifestyle"? "Sinful"? <shrugs> "Destructive"? I would very much like to know how my partner and I are destructive to anyone. We work (well, he does; I'm on the dole right now), we pay taxes, we buy groceries, we watch DVDs; how is that destructive?

Because you know, gobear, you might accidentally breathe in their airspace and infect their children or something. And maybe one of *their* kids will be gay and they can blame it on the fact that you breathed in the wrong place. By 'liberating you from your sins', they don't have to keep such close tabs on the air of the world.



And Bush scares me. He really does. I'm not talking in a funny kind of way, I'm talking in a "there's a real fear for loss of female civil rights and human rights if he stays in office" kind of scary. And I am *not* exaggerating. The fact that he endorses something like this makes me even more worried. Hell, why don't we start tossing people in water to see if they sink or float? If they float, they're obviously guilty and should be killed. It worked for the Puritans!

Ava

[Lord Ashtar]

Originally posted by gobear
Hey, asshole, they DO! Didn't you read the fucking OP? I'm sinful and destructive! What, I don't get to retaliate?

You may retaliate as much as you wish. I just don't see how it does any good.

Typically, I think if someone attacks someone for something, then turns around and does the same thing, it might look a bit hypocritical.

Just sayin'.

[Mockingbird]

Originally posted by Lord Ashtar
You may retaliate as much as you wish. I just don't see how it does any good.

Typically, I think if someone attacks someone for something, then turns around and does the same thing, it might look a bit hypocritical.

Just sayin'.

Yup.

Acting like the Southern Baptists are trailer park living, cousin fucking, Jerry Springer rejects is as bad as them feeling we need to be redeemed for the good of our souls.

[MsRobyn]

I know I'm gonna get slapped for this, but I'm grateful they're not going after the Jews again this year.

Seriously, though, having been a lone Jew in a town full of Shiite Babdists, I know what it's like to be singled out, told I'm worthless because of my religion, and that I'm gonna go to hell 'cuz I don't believe in Jesus.

Eh, screw 'em. If I go to hell, I know I'll be seeing a lot of these people there, too.

Robin

[gobear]

Originally posted by Mockingbird
You are such a paradox.

You can snarl at someone over this, and yet when it comes to posters of bannings past such as JoeCool, who have levelled homophobic bile, you've almost bent backwards to defend them.

So, if it's a group that does this, it's bad. When it is the individual spewing hate, you have to stand up for them?

I don't think I ever defended Joe_Cool for spewing homophobic bile, and if you go back and read relevant threads, you'll find that he and I got into some extremely nasty arguments. I did defend him from being misquoted or from having attitutudes attributed to him that he never espoused.

Either you find it intolerable to be an object of derision that needs to be redeemed*, or you find it acceptable.

I have a more nunaced view that allows for more than two options. I have no quarrel with people who disapprove of homosexuality but who do not let that color their treatment of me. One has to support freedom of conscience for everyone, not just those you agree with. As long as they are fair and just with me, then I don't care what they believe in their hearts.

My quarrel with the idiot fundies rises when they try to evangelize me, or when they try to write their barbaric religious views into legislation.

Acting like the Southern Baptists are trailer park living, cousin fucking, Jerry Springer rejects is as bad as them feeling we need to be redeemed for the good of our souls.

Bullshit. I am so tired of the fundies getting their way unopposed, but if gay people respond in kind, then WE are the bad guys.

I refuse to be a victim. I refuse to be quiet. I refuse to submit to religious tyranny.

Here's a metaphor. I view the American polity as a house where everyone has their own room. We all pay equal shares of rent and share equal responsiblity for household chores. Despite this, the fundamentalist tenant says that I, the gay tenant, have no business in the living room. I'm not allowed on the sofa or on any of the chairs. I can sit in the corner, but only if I don't say anything. Not only that, but he says I'm not allowed to have my own room, and he constantly comes into my room to put up posters of Jesus and replaces my original cast albums with recordings of gospel singers (white ones, so it's not even good listenable gospel, but that awful country droning).

Do I have a right to feel aggrieved?

[Lord Ashtar]

gobear, I agree with you that your rights should be equal to mine. You should be allowed in the living room, as you put it.

What I was objecting to before (and perhaps you weren't even responding to me) was an apparent appearance of hypocritical behavior. You say that it is not okay for Southern Baptists to portray all homosexuals as promiscuous, disease-carrying, evil people who need to be saved. But in the same breath you stereotype all Southern Baptists as people who need to

...pick up the beer cans around their trailers, get library cards, or stop wearing polyester...

Do you see what I'm talking about?

[Little Plastic Ninja]

Sure, gobear.

But, first -- fundamentalists are emphatically not the same thing as Southern Baptists, unless I'm severely mistaken. There's lots of fundamentalist Baptists, but not all Baptists are fundie.

Second -- My grandmother considers my former living situation (live-in boyfriend) immoral. She doesn't approve of the fact that I never got Confirmed, I don't go to church, and I'm far more liberal than she is. I tell her that I love her very much and I will respect her opinion...but I won't change my actions because of it. She's resigned to this, because she's a mostly reasonable person.

Let me put it clearly. You. Don't. Have. To. Care. What. They. Say. They are going to believe that your lifestyle is immoral. They can even say so. That's their right. You have the right to say whatever you want as well, but many people won't take you seriously if you demonize them as much as they demonize you.

I find it worrying that their beliefs are becoming widespread and acceptable among lawmakers, but I also think that this is a separate issue.

[gobear]

i get your point, but you don't get mine. THEY started this, so I am doing unto them what they have done unto me. Jes' following the Golden Rule. As long as they call me sinful and destructive, I shall call them no'count white trash.

If they don't like it, then they shouldn't have started the fight.

[Tanaqui]

President Bush addressed the meeting by videotape, calling the Southern Baptists "faithful servants" and asking God to bless them.

This was by far the most disturbing part of the article, in my opinion. I expect the religious fanatics to behave in ways like this--I don't expect the leader of my country to endorse this kind of hateful bullshit. I'm honestly disgusted by Bush. I never liked him much, but his attempts to get his war on in Iraq couldn't prompt the kind of loathing I'm feeling right now--that seems far away, and less black and white. But this? This is an open and unashamed endorsement of bigotry, pure and simple, and I'm incredibly disappointed in my country.

[macabresoul]

There is no difference between these southern Batizts and fred phelps. Just because they say they hate gays in a nice way does not give them any moral leverage above Fred Phelps.

AvaBeth I agree, having Bush endorse this BS and watching him always name dropping Jesus like they are college buddies is scary shit. Now I know Bush probably has trouble reading long books or, say, constitutions. But I remember this thing called seperation of church and state. Oh well, who reads the the constitution anymore.

I simply cannot fathom the mindset of people who interpret the bible to fit thier own agenda. I mean, anyone who can correct me, please do so, but doesn't the bible just say something like, "the people of Sodom were all nasty and they all needed to die." Or something vague and retarded like that. How can you conduct a lifelong vendetta to cure homosexuality based on something so weak.

oh well, let me give a nice warm fuck you to the southern babtizts

(I Think Babtizts sounds better and describes thier beliefs better.)

[TroubleAgain]

Originally posted by Aries28
FTR....I drink my beer from a bottle. I don't live in a trailer. I have a library card. Wearing polyester? Yuck! I cuss like a sailor sometimes. And as my dear husband can attest to, my skirts are more than an inch above my knee. Hmmpph. I even DARE to wear 2 piece bathing suits!!!

Ditto. Just because the Southern Baptist Convention issues a statement like that doesn't mean we all fall right in line with it. I mean, jeez, do all Catholics toe the line to the church? Give us a break!

[Little Plastic Ninja]

You may want to read up on the text involved, macabresoul. It's always good to know what the opposition really believes. Educate thyself, and then howl about it. I will say that most of the lines in the Bible used to disparage homosexuality are either A) vague, C) of uncertain origin and translation, or C) in Leviticus, which modern Christians really don't pay much attention to. If they did, they'd refrain from eating pork and cheeseburgers, for one thing.


And I think they do have a moral high ground. They're not saying "We hate you, but in a nice way," they're saying "We love you, but we're disturbed by what you do." They're wrong and they're overgeneralizing, but I honestly don't think that this is hate speech, and I think it's more morally sound than picketing funerals, bombing abortion clinics, and advocating violence against innocent people.

[tdn]

Originally posted by gobear
i get your point, but you don't get mine. THEY started this, so I am doing unto them what they have done unto me. Jes' following the Golden Rule. As long as they call me sinful and destructive, I shall call them no'count white trash.

If they don't like it, then they shouldn't have started the fight.

Perhaps, but by painting them all with the same brush, it's your own credibility that suffers. Already I am prepared to take you far less seriously because of the comments you made.

But do what you will.

[gobear]

Let me put it clearly. You. Don't. Have. To. Care. What. They. Say. They are going to believe that your lifestyle is immoral. They can even say so. That's their right. You have the right to say whatever you want as well,

Then where's the pint of your post? They're saying what they want and I'm reesponding. Or do you think they have a right to speak unopposed?

but many people won't take you seriously if you demonize them as much as they demonize you.

Really? IMO, the Southern Baptists are evil people, as bad in their way as Nazis or the Taliban. Overkill? Despite their ingenuous disclaimers, they are the driving force behind the GOP's determination to maintain antigay discrimination laws. They have attempted to force comapnies that support gay people to reverse their stands. They harrass us every chance they get. Did you not read the OP?

And I. Do. Have. To Care. What. They. Say because of your next point

I find it worrying that their beliefs are becoming widespread and acceptable among lawmakers,

Have you ever seen the movie Bent? It's about a gay man sent to Dachau by the Nazis. Lots of gay men went to the concentration camps where they were beaten, tortured, gassed, and cremated. This wasn't very long ago. My mother was born when this was happening. Adn it all happened in a modern, industrialized nation just like ours.

And I am sure that in 1934, right when the persecution began, people like you said, "Don't demonize them or people won't take you seriously."

[Aries28]

Originally posted by gobear
As long as they call me sinful and destructive, I shall call them no'count white trash.

Ease up there, chief.

A stereotype is a stereotype no matter what side of the fence you are spewing it from.....IMHO.

[Tanaqui]

Perhaps, but by painting them all with the same brush, it's your own credibility that suffers. Already I am prepared to take you far less seriously because of the comments you made.

But do what you will.

How nice it must be--to not be required to take opposition to bigotry seriously.

It is unfortunate that if gay men and women want to continue retaining the basic civil rights of heterosexuals, they don't have that option.

[gobear]

So [b[]Aries28[/b], tdn, and Lord Ashtar are saying that the Southern Baptists can spew their poison and I have no right to respond in kind. They can use any tactics they please, but I am limited to the high road or polite response. They can enclourage an atmosphere of hate, but I have to smile and turn the other cheek.


In other words, you want the bullies to win because that is the practical upshot of the tactics you advocate.

[Little Plastic Ninja]

Originally posted by gobear
Then where's the pint of your post? They're saying what they want and I'm reesponding. Or do you think they have a right to speak unopposed?

No. You have the right to say whatever you want. But when you say that all Southern Baptists are

evil people

then you're being just as bad as them. Really.

Really? IMO, the Southern Baptists are evil people, as bad in their way as Nazis or the Taliban. Overkill? Despite their ingenuous disclaimers, they are the driving force behind the GOP's determination to maintain antigay discrimination laws. They have attempted to force comapnies that support gay people to reverse their stands. They harrass us every chance they get. Did you not read the OP?

I read it. And no, I don't agree with the President. I think his advocation of their position isn't unusual, and it's the nicest thing I can expect from him, but where does it say that he's advocating discrimination against gays? The OP doesn't say that.

Now if you want to talk about sodomy laws, adoption bans, etc., that's another subject entirely. Saying "We should be nice to these people even if we think they're wrong" is a start in the right direction.

Have you ever seen the movie Bent? It's about a gay man sent to Dachau by the Nazis. Lots of gay men went to the concentration camps where they were beaten, tortured, gassed, and cremated. This wasn't very long ago. My mother was born when this was happening. Adn it all happened in a modern, industrialized nation just like ours.

And I am sure that in 1934, right when the persecution began, people like you said, "Don't demonize them or people won't take you seriously."

And just as soon as the government starts shipping homosexuals into their own "special communities", I'll be all over that like white on rice. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, I'm saying it isn't.

Bush is not going up there and saying "Gay people are the reason America has problems. It is because of gay people that America's economy is down the tubes, it is because of them we are no longer taken seriously by anyone else." That's the 700 Club talking, and they are not, thankfully, in charge.

Oho, you say, but Bush probably agrees with them! Or he's giving them tacit approval by not condemning them and belonging to the same religion.

And yes, gobear, I find that appallingly disturbing. I don't like the fact that the President believes so strongly in the beliefs he grew up with that he wants to force them on other people. But I don't think that's what this thread is about, is it?

We can start another one about that, if you like, and I'll agree with you.

[Dewey Cheatem Undhow]

Isn't Bill Clinton at least nominally a Southern Baptist?

And can someone please explain to me why?

[Little Plastic Ninja]

You are not LIMITED to ANYTHING. You are ALLOWED to say whatever you want. No one's going to stop you. No one here is going to come to your door and knock your teeth out.

They are ALLOWED to say that gay people are bad. You are ALLOWED to say that Southern Baptists are bad.

I am ALLOWED to say that Baptists are full of shit, they all screw dogs, they're all white trash, they're all ignorant and stupid, they all have very small penises.

I'd be wrong, but I'm allowed to be wrong.

No one is stopping you from saying whatever you want. We're just saying we disagree and we don't think you should say that. But we're not STOPPING you.

[vanilla]

Where did the SB's get this?
Why do they diverge so much from mianstream christian denominations?
Who started this idea?

[Aries28]

Not at all. If you will reread I said early on that I think this little campaign of the SBC is stupid, ridiculous....

My point is that to lump Baptists or Southern Baptists or whatever into a stereotype of being beer drinking, trailer living, illiterates and "white trash" isn't right either.

You said earlier that you could handle someone who in their heart didn't approve of someone being gay as long as they treated them the same as everybody else, right?

I'm all for you being in the living room (your analogy). I think befriending someone solely to try and convince them that their life is wrong and to sway them over to the "right" side is the antithesis of friendship. I think treating someone differently because of their race, sex, beliefs, who they love, etc. is wrong.

But I think hatred or stereotypes on the whole is just as wrong.

[Jaade]

Originally posted by gobear
i get your point, but you don't get mine. THEY started this, so I am doing unto them what they have done unto me. Jes' following the Golden Rule. As long as they call me sinful and destructive, I shall call them no'count white trash.

If they don't like it, then they shouldn't have started the fight.

Err...just saying.

The "Golden Rule" actually says "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

Which means treat them the way you want them to treat you, not the way they have treated you.

~J

[Monty]

Who was that comic who said, "It's just silly to be afraid of a Gay propositioning you? All you have to do is say 'no.' It's not like you have to stop, drop trou and say, 'Damn, now my whole night's ruined--gotta have some sex with a guy before I go home."

I really see the SBC as the very folks that comic was lambasting. It's not that they don't think about what they're doing or saying. It's just that they don't think.

[Lamia]

Originally posted by Eve

Hell, I'm not even gay, but I'll do some Southern Baptist dame just out of sheer orneryness.

Hell, I'm not a Southern Baptist, but my mama was raised as one...is that close enough? I suppose I could always convert...

[MrVisible]

If someone is piss-ignorant enough to believe the whole "Jaysus don't like it when the wrong people love each other" bullshit spiel, then calling them Springer-bound alcoholic trailer-dwellers is giving them more credit than they deserve. I've known alcoholic trailer dwellers who were actually nice people, after all.

The straight supremacists are moral morons, unable to understand the most basic principles of civilized human behavior, who subjugate an entire class of people just to be able to feel superior to somebody. They don't deserve my respect or my courtesy, but they're welcome to a heapin' helpin' of my contempt. And insulting them doesn't make me as bad as they are; I'm not trying to limit their freedoms, I'm not trying to push them to the margins of society and get them to shut the hell up. I'm just calling them mouth-breathing, amoral hypocrites, to whom the term 'primate' only loosely applies. I'm saying that their moral stance would revolt any self-respecting two-year-old, and that their idea of a deity is so twisted and evilly incoherent that even chimpanzees would recoil in horror, were they unlucky enough to have it explained to them.

The difference between my condemnation of these people and their condemnation of me is that I am outraged by the actions that they've taken to make sure that millions of people don't have the same human rights accorded to everyone else. They, however, are outraged by my very existence.

[vanilla]

Originally posted by Monty
It's not that they don't think about what they're doing or saying. It's just that they don't think.

All the fundies I know are just like the Southern Baptists.
I dunno why homosexuality is such abig deal to them.
Why not go to prisons and try to tell the gospel to murderers?

[Polycarp]

My comments:

Keep on fighting.

Stop the infighting.

FWIW, I disagreed strongly with a lot of what Joe Cool had to say, and the perspective from which he said it. But he and Jersey have always regarded me as a friend, and I them, because we're interested in one thing: the truth. And I believe that this is precisely the same attitude that gobear is talking about -- and that they'd back him in standing for it.

FWIW, the course Jesus taught as proper, and which is encompassed in the Golden Rule, is not to give back what you get, but rather to treat them as you wish to be treated, to return good for evil, kindness for hostility.

That's all kinds of tough to employ in this situation. Believe me, I know -- I've been getting a lot of the same excrement smeared on me, for standing firmly on the idea that gay people and others {run out your own acronym string here} deserve fair and equal treatment.

One thing that colors my awareness, which will be little help to any of the rest of you, is that the assholes who preach judgmentalism and hatred, and bear false witness, against you, will get their just reward. I don't throw the Parable of the Sheep and Goats into every religious debate in order to score points -- it's to warn the likes of Reactor and His4Ever that they're sowing the wind, and can expect to reap the whirlwind -- because I care about them too.

But, guys, always remember the "Lurker Effect" -- the real "silent majority" (as opposed to Jerry Falwell's creation) who knows that Liz Lesbian who works in the office is not the evil person that the fundies would make her out to be, and that Joe Gayman who sells furniture goes home to his partner and the kids they adopted, whose daughter has a gay friend -- and the more they demonize you, the more the mud they sling will come back to paint them as the hatemongers they are.

[Slacker]

Sorry I'm late to the party, but why exactly does this deserve a pitting? Were the Southern Baptists pro-gay before? Do we need to go through all of the Christian denominations with hard-line stances on homosexuality and pit 'em on occasion?