Ever work real hard at something but not improve?

[Dinsdale]

Just wondering if any of you would discuss when you decided you wanted to develop or improve a skill or ability, increased the time/effort/expense you expended on it, but failed to see any significant improvement.

How did you react? Did you work harder, abandon that activity, or resign yourself to mediocrity/incompetence?

I have played golf for maybe 30 years, since I was 12 or so. In high school, I was pretty good, shooting consistently in the low to mid 80s. I stopped playing while in college. Then I picked it up again maybe 15 years ago. Generally shot right around 90. Under 90 was a good day, over 90 a bad one.

2 years ago I stopped martial arts due to some injuries. So I decided I'd channel some of my time and energy into becoming a better golfer. I played and practiced more than I had at any prior time in my adult life - and played worse than ever before. I rarely - if ever - broke 90, and occasionally was even over 100. Unthinkably bad for my game. Worst of all, I felt like I was working really hard to play even this poorly, so I wasn't having as much fun as usual on the course.

This year I figured I'd take some lessons. So far I spent $160 on a series of 4 private lessons and reworked my swing plane. I bought 3 new clubs for a total of around $500. I am practicing and/or playing at least an average of 3 times a week. And guess what? Tho I occasionally experience periods of blinding near-competence, my game has resolutely refused to come together. My handicap is gradually rising above the unprecedentedly high levels of last year.

Wondering if any of you have experienced similar developments, and how you dealt with them.

[MeanJoe]

I'd kill to shot a round in the low-90s.

I've hit this problem before too and it also tends to track with athletics. Hockey for example. I have been playing for about 7 years now in recreational leagues. After about the 2nd year, I just have not really improved. I still struggle with the same skills that I did 3, 4, or 5 years ago. It frustrates me incredibly as it is not like I am an un-athletic guy - I am very active and relatively coordinated.

I also can't play basketball. Really. I can't dribble and walk/run and I certainly can't shoot to save my life. It is just impossible to me. Yet, I can play hockey, volleyball, football, softball/baseball, lacross, and soccer and be relatively competitive.

*shrug*

[Zeldar]

Guitar, golf, chess, knife throwing, archery, poetry (haiku) writing, and probably others where I didn't try as hard. None of them got me where I wanted to be.

I still mess around with guitar just because it's calming.

The rest I've just shelved until that mood comes back around to try again.

I've resigned myself to the idea that I just don't have what it takes to excel at things.

Reminds me of that thing, "He has delusions of grandeur: he considers himself adequate."

[Dinsdale]

Originally posted by Zeldar
"He has delusions of grandeur: he considers himself adequate."

THIS I love!

I guess what bugs me is that, while I don't consider myself overly competitive, I'd like to be kinda better than average in at least a couple of things. While I like to have a whole bunch of activities and interests that I am competent at and enjoy, I would like to be able to do somewhat better in one or two that I choose to concentrate on.

And at 42 I'm getting to the age where I can't really go toe to toe on a purely physical basis. My body giving out is one reason I had to stop fighting. And golf is the kind of thing where 50-60 year old guys who have game can pretty much hang with anyone.

I could certainly resign myself to golfing simply recreationally. Believe me, I do appreciate the "nice walk in a park" aspect. But I know I have golfed better in the past. And I don't see any clear reason preventing me from golfing better in the future. For me at least, golf is one of those activities that, while it can be inherently pleasurable, it is even more fun if you are somewhat good at it.

It sure is frustrating, tho, when I go out and shoot a 95 and think, "Hell, I could have blown off the lessons, and shot the same 95 with my old clubs and have an extra several hundred $ in my pocket."

[malaka]

Bolwing. I can't break a 137 average and I'm too lazy to learn to throw a curve ball.

[AV8R]

Here are some random thoughts from a musician/pilot:

Merely practicing on your own reinforces whatever bad habits or sloppy technique you may have. To improve, you generally need to have lessons with an expert who can analyze what you are doing and can give you pointers on what to change. (And making a permanent change to an ingrained habit can be very difficult unless you really work at it). Then you must consciously take what you have learned in lessons and do repeated drills to make it a new habit.

I've resigned myself to the idea that I just don't have what it takes to excel at things.

Sorry, this is just pure balony. With coaching followed by practice, your skills in any of the things you mentioned would improve greatly. Maybe you just simply don't want to take any extra time, and that's fine.

[KP]

I'm about your age, and the only thing that I've ever SERIOUSLY worked at, without improving, is a relationship - but that may say more about the number of things I could have put more work into.

I see three elements to continued improvement in the long term:

1) Why do I want to do it?
Admittedly, I've always been a bit more psychiatrically inclined than most (I took top honors in it in med school, though I never intended to go into it) but in my experience I often find an attitude or outlook adjustment works wonders - it's amazing some of the hidden motivations and influences that turn up. I know a guy who took 20 strokes off his game in a year after genuinely becoming friends with his father, an avid golfer who he'd always hated.

Most important: are you still having fun? Find the fun and the game will come (and if it doesn't, you won't care) We can't always 'will' ourselves to victory. I can't count the number of times that I've seen someone struggle at something for years, then have a breakthrough after an unexpected success. Of course there are many mechanisms and explanations, but sometimes just seeing progress can change the dynamic to a cycle of increasing success. And of course, in golf, relaxation is very important.

What are your standards? No amount of work would guarantee you a slot on the senior tour, of course, so though you'll very likely improve if you find the right approach, it might not be as much not as much as you'd like. You say you don't feel like to 'have what it takes to excel at anything". I'm sure that many people feel that way sometimes, but if 'excel' means something "top 10-20%" instead of top 1% or better, then you're probably excellent at many things.

Will being a top 10% golfer meet your needs? Would you need to be in the top 10% of avid golfers (many times harder)? In the end do you really need to be "in the top 10% of the guys I golf with"? If so, would you consider golfing with people who are not as good, or will you keep finding more challenging partners?

(I realize that this doesn't address your current stalemate, but it's a valid question)

2) Do something different
And if that doesn't work, do something else different. And then something else. Then try the first thing again, and then something else new. People - especially goal-directed people- often find it more satisfying to continue with methods that are not working for them "but should", rather than trying new, different or even wacky methods. The bottom line for me, when I'm not improving is: this isn't working, no matter how sensible or satisfying it seems.

Note that you may have to try *many* different things. How often have you seen someone seriously try one or two new approaches and then give up? The problem with "different" approaches is that they are also different from each other. It's not 'normal' vs 'wacky' - the thousands of possibly effective wackies are unrelated to each other. And don't forget to give the old ways a 2nd/3rd shot!

Yeah, it can drive you crazy. But you're not getting any better your way, and you can't do much worse than a proven failure.

3) Improve specific areas

Find out what you're doing wrong, if possible - but remember that golf isn't a science, and three good pros might give you completely contradictory advice (when he answer turns out to be a change of golf attire, shoulder exercises, or ditching a habit they encourage, but doesn't suit you - at least not in your current time/place.

Don't just address the game itself. I know guys whose game improved after they lost weight (or gained it, though I don't recommend that). A couple of courses in T'ai Chi or yoga could also bring far-reaching benefits, in addition to your game. Sometimes spot training helps (e.g. arm strength, which may seem irrelevant to a female ice skater, is actually a key to tight fast spins etc.)

I was heavily into martial arts in my youth, and I specialized in kicks. When I returned to the sport after many years, I was horrified to realize how much I'd ignored my strikes with my non-dominant side. However, being -er- kickass at one area did keep me improving in all areas back then. Today, I'd love any single focussed strength! Still, once I decided to focus on strengthening/training my non-dominant side upper body, my progress has improved. I needed a more restricted goal (and I try not to sob too heavily at night over those beautifu jumps and kicks, probably lost forever, like young amores)

[VenusProbe]

I just knew this was going to be about Golf! I gave away my clubs 7 years ago. I spent about $3,000 (US) on lessons and played twice a week for 2 years. I never broke 90. I have decided to take it up again, I've also decided that the score doesn't matter.

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

Physically, I've always had problems with flexibility. For instance, in yoga I could never do a good forward bend, and easily touch my toes without severely bowing my back.

But lately I've been working on back bridges at the midpoint of my gym workouts, and can almost do the wheel posture. That's the one where you hold yourself up on your palms and feet, with your whole body arched and your navel facing the ceiling. I still need to work on it to get really correct form, but I didn't think I'd be able to do it at all!

[Dinsdale]

Thanks for the responses.

KP - you gave me lots to think over.

A very limited response, today was a handicap revision date, and I am at a 19. A year ago I was displeased with how I was shooting, and I was at a 17.3. A 15 would mean that I regularly shot in the high 80s.

My goal for this season was to get down to a 15. Long term goal, I would love to be in single digits. Would like to break 80 again on rare occasions, when the planets align, etc.

For the last couple of years, my problem has been consistency. My last 9-holes, I played the first 6 holes 6 over par, then I went double bogie/quad on 7 and 8, before just missing a 6 foot birdie putt on 9. Ended up with a 45, instead of what should have been an easy 42 or so.

I can hit any individual shot/play any particular hole, as well as just about anyone. And then out of the blue after I've been driving well all day, I send one OB and then hack the next one. Or I'll have an easy short iron to a green, and I'll look up and nearly miss the damn ball. Played a couple of weeks ago in a driving wind on a really tough course. Had a nice front 9 (45), and then hooked 2 drives OB on #10!

And this shit has been going on for going on 2 years now. It is getting old.

One specific area I need to improve is putting. I rarely have fewer than 34-36 putts in a round.

Yeah, I still have fun golfing. But speaking for myself, it is even more fun when I am taking my friends' money, instead of the other way around!

[thatDDperson]

Dinsdale,

I notice "the last 2 years" coming into play.

When did you last have an eye exam? Even if you've been in glasses for years, you're at the stage where presbyopia and the related eyestrain could be causing problems. If your first __ holes are good, then things get progressively worse, consider that you might be straining to see, and as your eyes tire from the strain, your vision is less acute.

Get a current exam, and IF you are beginnig to need "near" correction (a reading prescription), look into progressive lenses. The near vision part of the lens is at the bottom, so to see the ball correctly, you HAVE to hold your head properly! A good pair of glasses with polarized lenses and adequate sun protection will be expensive, but worth it, even if they don't affect your score that much.

Oh, the thing I can't do well no matter how I practice is play the piano. I can sight read fairly well, but I suck, no matter how much I practice. I still play for my own amusement, however. I play BADLY, but I play.

[j.c.]

I could practice all day and all night with the very best teachers in the world and never have a good singing voice.

Additionally, math has never just come to me - I have to work work work at it. Anytime I read something with stats, I have to work out the math for myself, on scratch paper, just to make sure I'm not fooled by misleading pie charts.

Practice can make you much, much better, but it can't make you perfect.

[biqu]

When I was about 10 years old, I tried to teach myself to write with my left (non-dominant) hand. I practiced about 20 minutes a day, but my penmanship did not improve at all. I figured I was beyond the point of developing fine motor skills in that hand, having been left in the dust by my left-handed peers more than five years ago ( link -- childhood fine motor skills development ). So I gave up and learned to type instead.

In college, I joined the badminton club and encountered a right-handed person who had taught himself to play badminton with his non-dominant hand. So whenever I had the opportunity to play left-handed with other badminton players, I practiced and gradually improved. Maybe now, after having developed my gross motor skills in the left arm, I am more ready to tackle the challenge of fine motor skills, such as writing.

[And that's the bottom line]

I have been practicing juggling for awhile now and still can't seem to do it. Oh well, maybe I'm just not coordinated enough.

[TJay]

Originally posted by J.C. Additionally, math has never just come to me - I have to work work work at it.

This is something that I tried really hard to improve at as well!

When I first took my Maths exam, I got a grade G, which is one above Ungraded. I applied to retake it, revised really hard and the second time round I got a D, which is one grade below a Pass.

I thought to myself "if I take it again and revise a bit harder, I can surely get a C and pass it this time!". So, I took extra lessons from my mum's boyfriend who has a PHD in Maths, and revised even harder and retook it for the third time. The result? Another G!

I gave up at that point - now if anyone asks me what grade I got, I tell them D and ignore the last result I got! Maths and me just don't seem to get along.

[slortar]

Reminds me of my time in boy scouts as a kid. I tried for, and failed, the basket weaving merit badge...twice. Even after 15 years, I'm still a little crushed.

[Plankspanker]

plagiarised from malaka

Bolwing. I can't break a 137 average and I'm too lazy to learn to throw a curve ball.

i've been playing for 4 years and i cant break 100!!! mind you, at least the ball normally goes the right direction...

my bass playing has picked up considerably in the last year tho. i've been playing for 2 years now, but joined a year ago. when u learn to play stuff of varying tempos with freaky time signatures, it helps a lot...

[Zeldar]

slortar

Have you looked into macrame'? That's one thing I was good at after tying knots as a kid (never had the patience to be a real Boy Scout) with that *gimp* for lanyards and bracelets and the like.

Back in the 70's I managed to pick up some extra income tying large projects for friends and co-workers.

I hear macrame' may be making a comeback, along with some of those other crafts from that period.

[Plankspanker]

gah, joined a band a year ago! english BAAAAD!!!!

[slortar]

Heh. I think my friends would think I've finally gone around the bend if I took up arts and crafts.

I think I still have one of the "baskets" I made. If you look at it right you can almost pretend it's modern art.

[Yersinia]

Originally posted by j.c.
...math has never just come to me - I have to work work work at it. Anytime I read something with stats, I have to work out the math for myself, on scratch paper, just to make sure I'm not fooled by misleading pie charts.

Practice can make you much, much better, but it can't make you perfect.

I had serious problems with math as a kid in school (although in all other subjects I was an A student until I hit my sophomore year in HS and simply stopped making any more effort than necessary to pass so I wouldn't be held back), no matter how hard I tried. I didn't go to college immediately upon HS graduation -- didn't want to. Not then, anyway. However:

When I was 29 I decided I DID want to go to college, and a university near where I live had not only the major program I wanted, but also a college entry program for adults over 25 who'd either started but not finished college, but also for those who had never gone, nor even taken SAT's. Having fallen into the latter category, I signed up. In lieu of the SAT I had to take a state basic skills test in mathematics and English. I wasn't at all surprised when I aced the English part with flying colors. However, on account of my dismal performance on the mathematics section (on top of being bad in math as a kid in school, the only math I'd done at all since HS graduation was checkbook math with a calculator, LOL), as a condition of the entry program, if I wanted to fully matriculate at the university, I would be required to take not one, but TWO, remedial math courses to get my math skills up to college level speed. I took them.

The first week of the first of these courses, I found myself totally astounded not only to recognize the material the teacher was lecturing about and writing on the board, but that also it MADE SENSE to me (it didn't when I was a kid)! In a few more weeks, not only was it continuing to stick in my brain, but I was actually ENJOYING IT. I wound up acing both this and the second remedial math course, and as to the college level math I had to take when I was matriculated, I ended up with an A in college algebra, an A in precalculus and a B+ in calculus (while working 45-60 hours a week, taking a chemistry and a history course, both of which I got As in and having had a migraine induced stroke towards the end of that semester).

But even with all that, I STILL can NOT do math in my HEAD all that well -- other than very simple addition, subtraction and a minimum of multiplication, I GOTTA have that pencil and paper at the very least.

Now for the thing I was never able to do at ALL: Drawing. I'm sure that everyone reading this is familiar with the appearance of preschool and kindergarten children's drawings that their parents hang on the refrigerators, right? MY drawings never progressed much beyond that, even though I spent many hours throughout my childhood and adolescence drawing (or should I say, trying to, ha ha). My best friend also liked to draw, and SHE got so good she could and did sit down in the park with her sketch pad and draw the trees, or people, or horses (her specialty) etc. and they looked exactly like trees, people and horses. I kept plugging until I was in my late teens, but nothing I drew EVER looked like what it was supposed to look like.

I got disgusted finally, gave up drawing entirely and resigned myself to the fact that while I can certainly APPRECIATE it, I had no talent whatsoever for any kind of visual art (note: in school art classes through the years, my sculptures, papier mache and my paintings were as bad or worse than my drawings). To salvage my feelings of inadequacy, I consoled myself with the fact that I was an excellent musician/composer (I started piano at 4, took classical lessons for several years, then took up the guitar when I was 14; ultimately ended up as a damn good pianist/synthesist/12-string guitarist) who also had writing talent -- which after the stroke that destroyed my ability to play my instruments, I escaped into and continue to enjoy.

But drawing? Whatever it takes, I just don't have it. Never did, and never will.

[HerMajestyLorna]

I took giutar lesosns for about three years and reached a definite plateau after about one and a half. It just wasn't going anywhere for me...

Maybe if I had had a different teacher or really, really devoted myself to playing I could have broken through my plateau.

[Hello Again]

I horseback ride competitively. I am not what you'd call a natural rider. I've been riding since I was 10 (I'm 27) and it's fair to say that I know 14 year olds who are way better riders than me. I have issues I have been working on for a year and more with little improvement. Yet looking at the big picture, I am imporving over all. I take a lesson every other week and wish I could afford more.

One thing about your story Dinsdale rang a bell for me. Many times you do not get any better practicing without correction. Instead of thinking "practice makes perfect" think "perfect practice makes perfect" Incorrect practice just makes incorrect habits.

Many times learning a new skill shakes you out of your comfort zone, so that for a time you do *worse* than you had done before the new skill was aquired.

I don't know a whole heck of a lot about golf (except those greens are awfully nice to gallop on!). But I do think it is common, typical even, to plateau in skills and need an extra push from an instructor to break free of the plateau.

I have never been all that great at riding and I will never be in contention for a spot on the Olyympic team. But I enjoy it so I just keep chipping away. An old coach of mine (and my current coach concurs) said that riders who are not "naturals" often stick with it, because they know that working hard is part of playing the game. Whereas many times, when something comes easy to a person, the person gives up at the first challenge they can't overcome on natural talent.

[Edward The Head]

I know how this goes. I swim and swam when I was in High School. I didn't in college cause the coach was a prick. I came back to it two years ago after ten years off. I can not break a 0:27 yard 50 free. I have been swimming the same time for 12 years now. I swim more and better now then I did back in HS and even more so then two years ago. I have been swimming the 27 even when I was out of shape.

That said though, my 100s and 200 have been coming down nicely.

[Tomcat]

Bydlim v Ceska Republika uz sedm rok. Muzu conversovat s detmi maji dva, mozna tri roky. Studoval jsem s ucitelem tri rok a pul. Je hrozny.

Which loosely translates with large grammatical errors to "I've lived in the Czech Republic for 7 years. I can converse with children who are two, maybe three years old. I studied with a teacher for three and a half years. It's horrible."

My brain is not wired for languages. I make the biggest, silliest mistakes imaginable after living here for 7 years. I have a hard time ordering food at a deli properly. I normally revert to the point and grunt school of communication. Ugh. I disgust me sometimes.

I find that I quickly find plateaus. I love to do different hobbies all the time. Something new, something different! Then I'll rush to a level of semi-proficiency in a short time, but then never really improve beyond that. Then I soon lose interest and go onto a new hobby.

I'm also not that good at martial arts (although I am opinionated about them). I was friends with people who were REALLY good, so I would train with them. That meant that I got good at the basic things that work and know about the advanced concepts. But the little things and the hard work? Unfortunatly no. I only have time to go to class once a week, and sometimes I don't have time for that. So for every year of effort I put in, someone who goes more regularly achieves the same goal in three months. Or, otherwise put, after four years of kickboxing, I think I'm about as good as someone who's studied for about a year. And as more experienced martial artists know, the more you learn, the more you realize what you don't know. Well, after 15 years of off and on martial arts I know I suck. But I still do it. It sure beats jogging for keeping in shape.

I feel your frustration, I truly do.

-Tcat

[Dinsdale]

What I found kinda frustrating at times training MA was that even tho I was improving, all the other guys I was training with were improving as well and at about the same rate as me, so it was easy to feel as tho I wasn't really getting anywhere.

Course in your case ... (says the old man who just dragged his arthritic body back in from a 4 mile jog.)

[World Eater]

Making something of my life?