Straight Dope Message Board

[december]

So said Rep. Patrick Kennedy, according to the Washington Post.

As sometimes happens with Rep. Patrick Kennedy (D-R.I.), he let his mouth race ahead of his brain Wednesday night at a gathering of Young Democrats at the Washington nightspot Acropolis. After presidential candidate Howard Dean spoke, Kennedy delivered an impassioned peroration against President Bush's tax cut. We hear that Kennedy told the crowd: "I don't need Bush's tax cut. I have never worked a [bleeping] day in my life." With that he got the audience's attention -- the dropping-jaws kind. "He droned on and on, frequently mentioning how much better the candidates would sound the more we drank," a witness told us. "Finally, he had to be stopped by a DNC volunteer." Kennedy's spokesman, Ernesto Anguilla, told us yesterday: "He was talking to the crowd; it was a rally-the-troops kind of speech about the tax cut. He was energizing the crowd and got caught up in it and used an unfortunate word, which he regrets using. . . . And no one pulled him off the stage.

What a moron! Other than the Kennedy name, how can this person be a successful politician? 1

[Squink]

Perhaps he's surrounded by strong, skillfull and experienced advisors, ala Bush and company. It certainly works for the pubbies, why not for moronic democrats as well ? 2

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Gotta love the ruling class, American-style!

Daniel 3

[manhattan]

ROFL! A guy so stinkin' rich that he's got advisors to prevent his various trust funds from paying any taxes beating up on actual working people getting a break.

Friends don't let friends drink and opine.

That assumes this story checks out as is, of course. Initial reports from booze-fueled places tend to be about as accurate as reports from bullet-filled places. 4

[Gatopescado]

Why do so many horrible tragedys plague the Kennedy family?

Because they deserve it.

_________
Email: Obfuscating communication for nearly a decade! 5

[Little Plastic Ninja]

Egad, I've heard that argument before. I was talking to an otherwise charming girl who said "I don't care about politics or the economy, so shut up about it."

Aren't you going to college, we said. The terrible economy is going to make it hard for you to get funding or get a job.

"I'm independently wealthy. I don't have to worry about funding. And I'm going to be a vet, and people always need vets."

But they won't take their pets to a vet if they can't afford it.

"Sure they will."

Bull, said I. When it comes to deciding whether to renew Fluffy's heartworm medication or buy that extra 12-pack of Ramen, well, Kitty can wait a month.

"I don't think people make that sort of decision. The economy's not going to affect me, so I don't see why I should worry about it."

o_O

O'course, while I'm happy to get that extra $2/week (Prez is buying me a movie ticket every month! Bless his little heart) I still don't think it's going to Save the Economy. IANA economist, though. 6

[Homebrew]

He was energizing the crowd and got caught up in it and used an unfortunate word, which he regrets using. . . .

I doubt it was the "unfortunate" bleeped word that has people scratching their heads. 7

[World Eater]

Originally posted by Homebrew
I doubt it was the "unfortunate" bleeped word that has people scratching their heads.

Yeah I didn't get that either, the curse has nothing to do with it. 8

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I think it was a pretty cool and honest thing for Kennedy to say. The same statement can be made about Shrub, btw. 9

[rjung]

Originally posted by Squink
Perhaps he's surrounded by strong, skillfull and experienced advisors, ala Bush and company. It certainly works for the pubbies, why not for moronic democrats as well ?

Ah, but in Decemberland, the Republican who does this is a brilliant manager who's supported by knowledgable experts, while the Democrat who does this is an unsuccessful moron who's shielded by bootlicking lackeys. 10

[Typo Negative]

Originally posted by manhattan
ROFL! A guy so stinkin' rich that he's got advisors to prevent his various trust funds from paying any taxes beating up on actual working people getting a break.

.

Wait a minute. You mean working people are gonna get a tax cut too? 11

[UncleBeer]

Initial reports from booze-fueled places tend to be about as accurate as reports from bullet-filled places.

So what does this say about my apartment? It's booze-fueled and bullet-filled.

Wait a minute. You mean working people are gonna get a tax cut too?

Yeah. Just like the increase Clinton inflicted only on "the rich." 12

[Thunder]

What relation is he to the family? I'm consider myself well informed, but I had never heard of this guy until now.

His last name is Kennedy.

Big fuckin' deal. 13

[december]

He's the son of Sen. Teddy Kennedy 14

[Thunder]

I stand corrected.

And appalled.

What an asshole. 15

[Nobody]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
I think it was a pretty cool and honest thing for Kennedy to say. The same statement can be made about Shrub, btw.

Well now, as far as Bush is concerned,
http://www.multied.com/elections/georgewbush.html

He served as an F-102 pilot for the Texas Air National Guard. He began his career in the oil and gas business in Midland in 1975 and worked in the energy industry until 1986. After working on his fatherÕs 1988 presidential campaign he assembled the group of partners that purchased the Texas Rangers baseball franchise in 1989 and which later built the Ranger's new home, the Ballpark at Arlington.

He served as managing general partner of the Texas Rangers until he was elected Governor

Sounds like he worked to me. 16

[Fiver]

Joel, please tell me you're not really that naive. 17

[SPOOFE]

He must be a major-league asshole.

Joel, please tell me you're not really that naive.

Please explain how Joel is being naive. It's quite clear that ol' Dubya has worked at least a day of his life, even if he's not exactly a model for the Working Class.

The assholic thing about Patrick Kennedy isn't the fact that he let a "naughty" word slip (hell, I think they should be cussin' up a storm on children's TV, but that's just me), or even that he "didn't work a day in his life"... but the fact that he's bragging about it. 18

[Nobody]

Originally posted by Fiver
Joel, please tell me you're not really that naive.

Well, maybe we have different definitions of work. What's yours? 19

[Nobody]

Originally posted by SPOOFE
He must be a major-league asshole.


Please explain how Joel is being naive. It's quite clear that ol' Dubya has worked at least a day of his life, even if he's not exactly a model for the Working Class.

The assholic thing about Patrick Kennedy isn't the fact that he let a "naughty" word slip (hell, I think they should be cussin' up a storm on children's TV, but that's just me), or even that he "didn't work a day in his life"... but the fact that he's bragging about it.

Also, to be bragging about not working a day in your life when you're a member of the Democratic party, the party that identifies itself with the "working man", well.... 20

[thatDDperson]

Originally posted by Joel

Sounds like he worked to me. [/B]

What is sounds like and the truth are pretty far apart.

GWB was AWOL from the Texas Air National Guard most of the time. Supposedly he was reassigned to Alabama, but they didn't see him either. Then Daddy's buddies taught him to act like he had a job (Founder, President and CEO of Bush Exploration, a company put together to be brought into deals to help spread the liability, and keep the profits among the 'right kind of people') then he campaigned for Daddy, then Daddy's buddies bought a ball team for him to run, giving him another job.

Let's see...this would back up the first statement nicely:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030411.html

And then there's this:

http://www.awolbush.com/newrephtml.html

The records of Bush Exploration are sealed, as is everything else GWB can seal about his past.

Little George is a very lucky boy. If brother Neil hadn't been such a greedy pig and gotten caught up in some little S&L scandal, and if Jeb hadn't gotten tied up with some stuff in Florida, Li'l George wouldn't have been Governor of Texas or President.

Work? I don't think so... 21

[lite]

I haven't seen proof that GWB was AWOL. After all, Kruschev admitted that the Rosenberg's did, in fact, provide the secrets to our nuclear program. Yet, to this day, the left-wing proclaims their innocence. Anyway.

What was lost here was his quote that stated that the more peolple at the club drank, the more the Democratic contenders would make sense.

Someone please find this so those that befall me will see thier error. 22

[SPOOFE]

Work? I don't think so...

Learn how to read. More specifically, the list that Joel provided.

Again, argue as much as you want about the quality of Bush's work, but the fact remains that, if Mr. Kennedy's words are to be taken at face value, he and Mr. Bush are NOT anywhere near comparable. Doing a POOR job is, in my book, better than doing NO job at all. 23

[Una Persson]

Fuck people, this isn't that hard. Kennedy's words transcend politics. They are simply those of an asshole. And it's sad that they are not universally decried by those on both sides of the political fence.

It's not about being liberal, or conservative. It's about not gloating over being a poor little rich kid. And defending him and calling what he said "cool" is profoundly morally and intellectually bankrupt. Can't people drop the partisanship for one brief instant and instead embrace honesty and decorum?

Supporting a political party or cause does not and can not be synonymous with defending to and beyond the point of absurdity egregious actions of other members of said party.

What he said was assholic. He is an asshole for saying it. It does not speak to or about liberals, democrats, Clinton, Bush, or anyone or anything else. A conservative of similar background and economic status saying the same thing would be equally, in all ways, an asshole.

They should teach this shit on Blue's Clues, since some people just don't get it. 24

[Reepicheep]

Originally posted by thatDDperson

GWB was AWOL from the Texas Air National Guard most of the time.

http://www.ngaus.org/ngmagazine/main101.asp 25

[Read_Neck]

Hijacking a drunken Kennedy thread into a communal Bush-bashing. How very typical. 26

[elucidator]

I am reminded of James Carville saying similar things, to the effect that since he makes oodles of money, he niether needs nor deserves a tax cut. In that light, Mr. Kennedy's remarks can be taken to be a refreshing admission of the absurdity of inherited wealth and its attendant inherited privilege. Kurt Vonnegut got it exactly right in God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater.

As the Revolutionary sons and daughters of Thomas Paine, it behooves us to scorn any form of despised aristocracy. Further, to imply that Mr. Bush has any real awareness of the concept of "work" is chucklesome in the extreme. The most contact he has with anyone who could be termed "working class" is to drag them into self-serving photo ops. As the scion of the gated-community class, his maximum contact comes from any accidental hand-touching that might derive from delivering a tip. And he has staff to take care of that sort of thing. 27

[UncleBill]

Originally posted by thatDDperson
What is sounds like and the truth are pretty far apart.

GWB was AWOL from the Texas Air National Guard most of the time.
<snip>
Let's see...this would back up the first statement nicely:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030411.html

Maybe you should read your cites. Here is the pertinent exerpt:

Originally penned by the Perfect Master
in May of '68 he was inducted into the guard.
<snip>
In 1972, four years into his six-year guard commitment, he was asked to work for the campaign of Bush family friend Winton Blount, who was running for the U.S. Senate in Alabama. In May Bush requested a transfer to an Alabama Air National Guard unit with no planes and minimal duties.
<snip>
In September he was ordered to report to a different unit of the Alabama guard, the 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group in Montgomery. Bush says he did so, but his nominal superiors say they never saw the guy, there's no documentation he ever showed up, and not one of the six or seven hundred soldiers then in the unit has stepped forward to corroborate Bush's story.
<snip>
Indeed, when Bush decided to go to business school at Harvard in the fall of 1973, he requested and got an honorable discharge--eight months before his service was scheduled to end.

So May 1968 to September 1972 is 4 years, 4 months. Lets say he was strung out on coke the whole rest of his term of service. In Sep 1973 he got out, that is 12 months. That is not "most of the time." 28

[Dewey Cheatem Undhow]

Originally posted by elucidator
Further, to imply that Mr. Bush has any real awareness of the concept of "work" is chucklesome in the extreme. The most contact he has with anyone who could be termed "working class" is to drag them into self-serving photo ops.

So white-collar work isn't real work, eh?

I'll remember that next time my eyes are bleeding over a prospectus at 2 am. 29

[elucidator]

What a splendid rejoinder, friend Dewey! Did you get that at Non Sequiters 'R Us?

There are, of course, any number of hard working white collar workers. There are even hard working lawyers! (I like to stake out a truly radical position every once in a while, even in the face of your disapproval, which alternates between scathing sarcasm and avuncular patronizaton...)

Several such are mentioned in the most recent Atlantic (The Texas Clemency Memos by Alan Berlow) which compliments the efforts of pro bono warriors who labor in the cause of Justice and Mercy. The nobility of work is not derived from industry, but from purpose. The lowest campesino toiling to put lettuce on the tables of America is more worthy than any ten palladins of privilege. 30

[pkbites]

Patrick Kennedy is a shit head.

But is he a jelly doughnut? 31

[Apos]

even that he "didn't work a day in his life"... but the fact that he's bragging about it.

He's bragging about it in the service of saying that he doesn't think people like himself deserve a tax cut. What's wrong with that, exactly?

Of course, being a politician is not exactly "not working," but whatever.

Anthracite managed to get through five paragraphs without once explaining his argument. 32

[Spoke]

Hell, he's not bragging about it at all. He's stating a matter of fact. And rightly concluding that tax cuts should go to those who work for a living, NOT the leisure class. Fair criticism of the Republican position, I'd say (though not elegantly-stated, by any means).

What exactly is your criticism of the guy? That he uttered an obscenity? Or that he admitted what no Republican trust-funder would? 33

[Flymaster]

I totally agree with Kennedy. He hasn't worked a day in his life, if you don't count all of his political work (which, I'm willing to bet, December doesn't, despite counting Bush's "work" as *snicker* owner of a mediocre baseball team). Why, then, should he get a tax cut? 34

[Apos]

Of course, if he' really upset that he's paying too little in taxes, nothing is stopping him from overpaying. The IRS wont complain. 35

[Una Persson]

Originally posted by Apos
Anthracite managed to get through five paragraphs without once explaining his argument.

Why would I explain "his argument"? Kennedy's "argument"? What does that sentence mean? 36

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally posted by UncleBill
Maybe you should read your cites. Here is the pertinent exerpt:So May 1968 to September 1972 is 4 years, 4 months. Lets say he was strung out on coke the whole rest of his term of service. In Sep 1973 he got out, that is 12 months. That is not "most of the time."

This is a pretty lame quibble. He was AWOL for a year which is technically desertion. If Al Gore had deserted his division during war time conservatives would have never shut up about it.

Junior really has not worked in any meaningful sense of the word. He borrowed some money from his daddy's friends to start an oil company. The company failed and Junior absconded with his investors' money. He played around at owning a bsaeball team for a while. Owning a baseball team is not work it's a fucking rich boy hobby. He then bought a Texas governorship with his daddy's name and money and accomplished very little except to sell out the environment to his daddy's corporate cronies and set a record for executions (the actual guilt of those he executed was not especially important to him. He just knew that his approval ratings went up whenever he killed somebody...a policy which he is now milking for all it's worth as the (unelected) POTUS.

GWB has never been an employee. He's never had to go to a job interview. He's never had to punch a time clock. He's never had a boss. He's never had to go hat in hand and ask for a raise. He's never had to get up every day and bust his ass to feed his family. He's never had to wash the dishes or take out the garbage. He is an exceptionally pampered and over-priveleged prick who actually believes he's earned something. In the words of Jim Hightower, he was born on third base and thinks he hit a triple.

The same can be said of Patrick Kennedy, but at least Kennedy knows it. He recognizes that he hit a genetic jackpot. He was born into a wealthy and politically powerful family and he admits it. Bush actually thinks that he's done something to deserve his position. 37

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally posted by Anthracite
Why would I explain "his argument"? Kennedy's "argument"? What does that sentence mean?

Explain why what Kennedy said was "assholish." He wasn't "gloating" about being rich, he was making an honest and admirable statement that he and people like him, that is, people who already have more money than they could ever need, do not deserve a tax cut. 38

[Una Persson]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Explain why what Kennedy said was "assholish." He wasn't "gloating" about being rich, he was making an honest and admirable statement that he and people like him, that is, people who already have more money than they could ever need, do not deserve a tax cut.

That still doesn't line up with the quote on me not explaining Kennedy's "argument" at all, but I'll answer your query, which at least is comprehensible.

We all have different privledges and abilities. We all have different levels of education, different wealth levels, different family status, etc. And in polite discourse, we don't go bragging about them in that manner if we are polite or have any sort of interpersonal relations compass.

This is not about liberals, democrats, republicans, conservatives, rich, or poor, regardless of the gymnastics used to try to make it about that. It's about showing tact when talking about one's status and privledge in society.

*If* Kennedy said it (has it even been proven at this point???), it's an assholic thing to say, true or not. It's assholic when rich friends of mine brag about their wealth and privledge. I know a person who at 36 has never had to work a day in his life (claims he is a Republican, BTW), and never will. And when he brags about not having to ever had to work and how great it is that he does not pay taxes, he's being an asshole. And if he were to brag about not needing Bush's tax cut because he was rich, he would be an asshole on those grounds too. Kennedy is not any more subject to being an asshole just because he is he.

In other words, it may be a "true fact" that one is in the upper 1% of income, but calling attention to that would be assholic if done in the manner attributed. It may be a "true fact" that some people have far, far more formal education than others here pretend to have, but bragging about that is being an asshole. If someone has a 21-inch prehensile penis, it may be a "true fact" when one tells everyone about it, but it's still being an asshole to brag about it at every Dopefest.

If one did it in the manner the OP quoted - which, I repeat, may not have even happened, correct? 39

[Diogenes the Cynic]

He wasn't "bragging" he was illustrating a point. There was nothing in that statement to indicate that he was proud of it or that he thought it made him better than anyone else. He was just admitting a reality. 40

[Apos]

YOUR arguement you gibbering rouge! You were the subject of the sentance, after all.

You ranted on and on how how one simply cannot deny that what he said was assholish. But you never explained why it was. Now you've tried... but failed. It's not assholish to point out that someone who doesn't work shouldn't get huge tax breaks.

It may be wrong (taxes SHOULDN'T affect one's choice to work or not work), but it's not assholish. There's nothing wrong with not working a day in your life. It's what many many people aspire to. 41

[Desmostylus]

Anthracite, being female, was probably thrown by your use of the word "his". I couldn't work out what you meant, either. 42

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I thought Apos was referring to Anthracite's argument. I didn't know that Anthracite was a she, though, so now I can see why she was confused. 43

[lite]

For the love of sanity! here's a real-life example of the tax cut argument. But first, a nugget of truth to the ignorant.

The poor don't pay any income tax, simple as that. If you don't pay tax, HOW DOES A TAX CUT AFFECT YOU? Oh, yeah, it's redistribution of wealth (Socialism). On to the example.

A friend of mine is so anti-Bush, I may break ties with him. He has 3 kids and was PISSED when he heard the $400 per child REFUND was passed. He complained how the rich were getting the cut and the poor were screwed.

Guess what happened when I said tax cuts weren't enforceable and he could elect to forego it? He said "Shit, but I need it!" After informing him he was benifitting and therefore rich, I asked to borrow $10 (as a lark). he said "I can't afford it". 44

[Diogenes the Cynic]

The rich don't deserve a fucking cent.

And that "the poor don't pay taxes" thing is a load of fucking horseshit. The working poor pay Social Security and payroll taxes as well as sales taxes. The middle class pay a more substantial part of their income interms of it's real effect on individual households that than rich people do. The richest one percent are the ones who have all the loopholes and corporate tax dodges. It's the middle class that takes it in the shorts. Tax relief, especially payroll tax relief, would be great for middle class and working poor households, but, man, fuck the rich. They don't deserve shit.

There's not a damn thing wrong with redistribution of wealth, btw. Jesus, for one, was all for it. 45

[lite]

This idea of the rich not paying taxes is the biggest urban legend foisted on the ignorant.

Sales tax? Show me where the Federal Government has license on that. Washington can't do a damn thing about it since it doesn't collect it.

Payroll? 2 points here and the second might get this moved to the Pit.

First, the Dems have been bitching about the "trust-fund" (is Social Security a Republican?) for years. The last 5 House elections, maybe more, have been based on the fund. For all his talk, what did Clinton do to save it?

Now to the meat of this argument.

My father was a Senior VP of hospital admin for a Children's Hospital. He paid the full payroll tax by Sept every year for 25 years. My mother paid payroll for 15 years hitting the max in mid-Nov. This is approx $5500 for each, times the years paid in Social Security. (Plus the Medicaid tax)

Dad died on 52d birthday, mom died in January at age 58. In each case we received $255 each in death benefits. Where the fuck is the rest of the money?!? 46

[Diogenes the Cynic]

The rich people have it. 47

[Edlyn]

Actually, government has the lion's share of the economy's wealth. 48

[Liberal]

That was I, and not Edlyn, who posted above. 49

[Typo Negative]

Originally posted by Edlyn
Actually, government has the lion's share of the economy's wealth.

And quite a number of them are pretty durned wealthy, as evidenced by the OP. 50