About Persephone and Dex

My apologies for not having attended to this matter sooner. It has been a hectic week.

For those unfamiliar with the controversy involving Persephone and Dex, you may as well read the relevant threads, since links will undoubtedly be posted soon anyway: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=193732 and http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=193951. Quite a few SDMB users feel a wrong has been done and that apologies are in order. We’ll get to that in a bit. First some comments, not in order of importance.

It’s not against our rules to post details of your private life on the SDMB (exception: no phone numbers, home addresses, or other information that in our opinion could endanger someone). But you do so at your own risk. If you post embarrassing revelations about yourself, it is foolish to think that everyone who reads them will be sympathetic.

Shortly after Persephone’s OP in the first thread cited above, CKDexterHaven, an SDMB administrator, posted a comment professing his astonishment at the situation and wondering how things could possibly have come to such a pass. A few people took umbrage at this, but in my view Dex’s comment was not unreasonable. The situation on its face was appalling - Persephone had apparently left her children in squalor to attend a social gathering in NYC. She expressed some contrition - “I am not worthy of you. But I swear, I will make myself worthy.” Dex was under no obligation to take this at face value. He said what a lot of people undoubtedly thought. His remarks were well within the realm of acceptable discourse on the SDMB. It is not a violation of our rules to post remarks critical of another user - all we require is that you be civil, or else take it to the Pit. Nor was Dex overstepping his bounds as an administrator. We don’t tell mods or admins they can’t post personal opinions.

But. Dex then decided to open a thread in the Pit taking Persephone to task. Here is where things went off the rails. Had Dex been an ordinary user, his Pit thread would not have been objectionable, and would not have gotten him warned or banned. We afford posters wide latitude in the Pit. Persephone was incautious enough to post details about her life suggesting she was an unfit mother, and if she got pitted for it she had no one but herself to blame.

However, Dex was not an ordinary user; he was an administrator. We did not, up to this point, have a rule that mods and admins were not allowed to pit people. Our chief guideline - and you understand that this was an internal rule, we don’t post such things publicly - was that we expected moderators to moderate. Dex’s Pit thread had the opposite effect. His tone gave the impression he held Persephone in contempt. What’s more, the fact that “administrator” appeared under his name could easily lead a newbie to conclude that Dex was expressing the official SDMB staff view. He was not. Posting a thread in the Pit in this manner showed poor judgment. I have admonished Dex for this and the mods and I have agreed on new rules meant to prevent a recurrence. I apologize to Persephone on behalf of the SDMB staff for any suggestion that we had officially decided she was an unworthy human being.

The ban on discussion of this topic is lifted, subject to the following: (a) All such discussion is to be confined to the Pit. (b) Notwithstanding (a), “Pit rules” do NOT apply to discussion of this matter. Be civil - no name calling, abuse, excessive profanity, or anything else that would get you in trouble in a non-Pit forum on the SDMB. Violators are subject to revocation of their posting privileges. Thank you for your adherence to these rules.

OK, look, I was responding as an ordinary human being, and I found it appalling that a parent would describe a situation of child endangerment without one word of remorse, without any noticable regret. I found it outrageous that people would think that group hugs are the appropriate reaction to child endangerment or abuse. And I still find it incredible that people rushed to condemn me for speaking the truth, however harsh my phraseology.

I have apologized to Persephone for not having emailed her first. I was advised that my lack of private communication upset her. This is not without humor, however, since (a) her email address had not been updated in her registration, so I had no way of emailing her; and (b) when has it been a requirement to email someone before responding to them or Pitting them? And this is not without farce, however, since ©: I was told that I should not have commented without knowing the “facts.” Persephone told us the facts: she left her children in squalor to go partying with her online friends. The other “facts” – who was the babysitter? where was the father? what color is the kids’ hair? what was she drinking in NY? – are irrelevant. The denial going on here is pretty amazing. The basic fact – the endangerment of children – is all that matters.

I certainly did not intend to imply that Persephone was a “worthless human being” (as per Ed’s comments in the OP), and I am sorry if my words gave that impression. I did think her actions and behaviours were less than admirable, and I am not sorry for saying so.

Fortunately, Persephone has since made it clear in email that she does regret her past actions, seems genuinely repentant, and is taking steps towards improvement in future. I am very glad of that, and I applaud her for it. It was the absence of such comments in the OP that set me off, and I believe that she understands where I was coming from, as well.

Looking back on it in the cold light of day, my response was highly emotional. While this would have been acceptable for an ordinary user, I am an Administrator on the Boards, and therefore what I said may have appeared to be “official”. This was impolitic, at best. Administrators and Moderaors are subject to stricter requirements than ordinary users, and I failed to consider that. I regret it.

Ed and the Moderators have had considerable discussion, and we have set a new policy, so this situation will not arise again.

I am in fact on vacation at the moment, camping out west, and access to the internet will be extremely limited for the next few weeks. So I don’t expect that I will be able to post here (or anywhere) until late July.

Having not read the threads in question, I will obstain from any comment on that.

Just a suggestion based on another board I frequent. Moderators are allowed to have a “mod user name” so that their personal opinions are kept seperate from their moderating duties. While everyone knows that ModName is UserName, it does reduce a lot of the fussing when a mod keeps opinions to UserName and mod duties to ModName.

Just an idea…

that would Abstain not obstain…

Oh to be able to edit :wink:

Sounds like a good idea. I would not be surprised if Mods here had secret second accounts as users.

I would be. No Mod here has an active account as a user, and certainly not a secret one. Before the “no second name” rule a scant few had a second account (Lynn had “Vinnie” post to axe members, and that might be it) but we stopped that after we put the rule in effect.

Based on everything I’ve read here and elsewhere, I know I am going to be in the minority on this, but:

I pretty much agree with CK Dexter Haven 90%.

I didn’t know there was a rule. In that case I would* be surprised.

Anyway. How do you know I am not Cecil Adams?

[sub]stop laughing[/sub]

Do you have a link to those posts? It sounds pretty funny.

Oh, I do too. I did think the Pit thread was a bit much, but not uncalled-for–certainly the remarks in the other thread were justifiable. I was just as surprised as Dex by the revelations therein.

Me too. I am willing to bet we are not in the minority. (having said that - I know little of what happened. only rough details of what peresphone said and that dex took issue with it - which I fully support and would have done myself)

Put me on that list of those who are in agreement.

Now that this can of worms is finally being re-opened, how about you reinstate Xploder, since this very topic is what got him banned.

Incidentally, Dex, you were really in the wrong on this one, but no harm no foul.

A bad deal all around.

The thing I took a bit of offense to about this whole thing was that Seph wasn’t doing any bragging about how she left her kids in squalor or any other such sentiments but istead was expressing thanks to the SDMB community for their support while she was going through it all.

I’ve never met her, I know next to nothing about her, but even I could tell that she knew she made a mistake and was simply thanking the people that helped her. It wasn’t a “feel sorry for me thread” which is what it appears is the interpretation Dex took and worked on.

As things go, I don’t know Seph and won’t pass judgement either way but I think the whole point of much of the outcry has been missed.

If nothing else you could have two obvious accounts. Like for example a normal user Gaudere and a user named Gaudere Admin. Sort of like an official version of the modhat.

Is Dexter also apologizing for flaming in the original MPSIMS thread - a clear violation of board rules?

I dunno, Dex - a simple “I’m sorry” would have probably gone a lot further than a long, involved explanation, since you and Persephone worked out the details already. This thread isn’t for her or for you, it’s for us regular old SDMB posters. I’m underwhelmed at how you said it, but I’m impressed that you said it at all, so good on you.

Kudos to the management and Ed for actually taking this situation seriously and not sweeping it under the rug, regardless of who agrees or disagrees with the outcome.

Esprix

I doubt that’d help matters–the tone of similar outcries would pretty much be the same. Of course, that’s a subjunctive doubt, so it’s safely untestable (those are the best kinds of statements!).

I predict a lot of people talking past each other, and ongoing rumbling off-board seethings. Grudges will be held, showing primarily in snappish replies and comments and glowerings over unrelated things years down the road.

The lesson I primarily take from this is to never, ever, pit anything seen in MPSIMS without making sure of massive popular support–unless one’s okay with the previous paragraph.

Definitely a bad deal all around.

Ed Zotti and staff, thank you for handling this matter well.

I hope this won’t cause administrators and moderators here to feel that they cannot freely express their opinions - not knowing the specific policies, I trust this will not be the case as I do enjoy seeing moderators’ and administrators’ personal comments. We all show poor judgement sometimes and I feel the intelligent, mature members of the SDMB - by far the majority - understood the difference between moderating and personal opinion here.

The whole matter just left a bad taste in everyone’s mouths, understandably. Let’s hope we can grow beyond this matter and still have free discourse here.