Food For thought.........

[Vestal Blue]

Not to start an argument or anything. I just found this interesting, and it rings true for me.

What follows is an excellent commentary by an educator at the University
> of Alabama:
>
> I grew up in rural America in the '50's and '60's. On any given day, you
> could walk through the high school parking lot and observe that half the
> vehicles parked there were trucks with windows rolled down and doors
> unlocked. Most of them carried, as standard equipment, an FFA sticker
> Future Farmers of America for you city folks) and a gun rack with at least
> one gun, usually loaded. You could make the same observation at any of the
> four high school campuses in our county. Amazingly, I do not ever recall
> reading or hearing about mass shootings in any of those high schools.
> What has changed in America is not the accessibility of guns, but the
> character of man. On the wall in my parents home is a plaque awarded to
> my father in recognition of service for 27 years on the local school
> board. He told me that for years, a standard requirement on every
> Teacher's contract was membership in a local church.
> I remember starting every school day with the pledge and a prayer. I
> remember when girls who got pregnant in high school were ashamed, when
> abortions were illegal, when the divorce rate was not 50% because couples
> stayed together for the kid's sake, when there were no X-rated movies,
> when milk cartons didn't have missing kids faces on them and I didn't know
> anyone personally who used drugs. I remember when kids were taught respect
> for authority and accountability to God. I hear people say that the good
> old days weren't always so good but please don't tell me you think these
> are better.
> Last night I attended a high school football game that was covered by
> local and national news. The news coverage was not about the football
> teams, but about the defiance of a court order by one brave little Texas
> town to preserve the right to pray before a football game. The more this
> country struggles to free itself from religion, the more we become
> entangled in the consequences.
> If people are taught that they came from slime, the obvious questions and
> consequences must follow; What is the purpose of my existence
> [hopelessness], who made you the boss of me [lawlessness], why are your
> rules good and mine bad [relativism], what does it matter how I live if I
> came from slime and return to slime [immorality and inhumanity]? I realize
> that in any given poll, the vast majority of Americans claim to believe in
> God. I claim to believe that running is good for me but that does not make
> me a runner. Putting on my running shoes and running makes me a runner.
> The climbing abortion rate, murder rate, divorce rate, alcoholism and drug
> abuse rate, child and spousal abuse rate contradict that claim and prove
> that actions speak louder than words. It is an observable truth that the
> best time you will ever make on any American City freeway is on Sunday
> morning because there are no traffic jams getting to church.
> For those who believe that separation of church and state is not enough,
> that the world would be better off with no church at all, ask yourself
> this question. How many hospitals, universities, orphanages, homeless and
> abuse shelters have been founded by the ACLU or American Atheist Society?
> It is the inclusion of the word Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterian,
> Christian, etc., in the name of so many of these institutions that proves
> by actions, not just words, who really cares for the suffering of mankind
> and desires to make the world better.
> The question that people should be asking is not "Why does God allow
> tragedies?" but "When will we realize that no nation, in the history of
> the world, has ever separated itself from God and evolved to a better
> society?"
> Of course, to answer, you would have to know history. Most people, it
> would seem, prefer People magazine."
>
> Joyce Minor
> Asst. Director of Development and Alumni Relations
> University of Alabama



------------------
VB

Some people say that cats are sneaky, evil, and cruel. True, and they have many other fine qualities as well.

[cher3]

These days are better.

[Demo]

What Cher said.

[evilbeth]

If I'm not mistakem (and I rarely am) we had a thread in GD (maybe) a while back quoting this same speech. It was not taken well as I recall.

------------------
I always try to do things in chronological order.

[evilbeth]

That was just funny! I couldn't have planned it better! You know I meant "mistaken!

------------------
I always try to do things in chronological order.

[evilbeth]

Yep, I knew it! Here it is:
LookieHere

------------------
I always try to do things in chronological order.

[neutron star]

If I'm not mistakem

Hey! That's my Steak Ummm, thank you very much!

[SwimmingRiddles]

Um...so the whole argument is that because we acknowledge the fact that Christianity is not all reaching, and that some people choose to not believe in Christ as thier leader, all negative effects of post-modernist America are the result?

The reason kids are killing each other is because they lack stability in thier home lives, not because they don't pray before football games. It's because American society no longer has family/community groups to make every member feel useful and productive. As an agnostic, not only do I disagree with the essay, but it mildly offends me.

What SwimmingRiddles said.

[Sealemon88]

Maybe the "good old days" seem so good because of the lack of free, unbiased information about the way things really are.

Sweeping a problem under the rug doesn't make it go away.

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You say "cheesy" like that's a BAD thing.

[Trout Mask Replica]

I am assuming the person Vestal Blue quoted in the OP was white, conservative, and Christian. I have a feeling blacks, non-Christians, and political liberals would remember the Alabama of the 1950s differently.



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TMR
LETS RIDE THIS SAUCER FULL OF SupErlovE INTO OUR FORTOLD UTOPIAN MILLENIUM...

[elbows]

What trout said...

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Wisdom is the boobie prize,they give you when you've been --unwise!

[Esprix]

What elbows said.

Hear, hear!

Esprix, who is glad he lives now and not then, as the OP makes him very, very queasy

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Ask the Gay Guy!

[Trout Mask Replica]

Originally posted by Esprix:
Esprix, who is glad he lives now and not then, as the OP makes him very, very queasy

Queasy, yes, but also angry. Angry that there are still people out there who would make people like you and me into second-class citizens because we hold different beliefs from them.



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TMR
LETS RIDE THIS SAUCER FULL OF SupErlovE INTO OUR FORTOLD UTOPIAN MILLENIUM...

[purrplebear]

That arcticle rings very true for me also. It is very easy to say that just because someone may be a white, conservative Christian that therefore their opinion must be of little value to anyone else. I disagree strongly. We are ALL God's children, whether or not everyone agrees with that or believes; and the color of our skins, our languages, our roots, the color of our eyes, count for just so much chaff in the wind to Him.

Truth is TRUTH, regardless of whether or not anyone believes it.

The consequences of trying to eradicate religion from our daily lives, from the very foundation upon which this great country of ours was built on are all too evident. All you have to do is look around you, look at the neighborhood you live in, look at the school grounds, look at the news, look at the spiraling out of control teen pregnancy rates, divorce rates, murder rates, etc.

Whatever you perceive Almighty God to be, whatever name you choose to call Him by, however you decide to worship Him, it only matters that you DO it. Without Him in our lives, as a guiding light if you will, as a hallmark of how to live and how to treat each other, we are much diminished as individuals and worse, as a nation.

Look at the President of this wonderful, mighty nation. What has his example been? He professes to be a Christian, and it's not up to me to judge him on that; yet, what have his actions and words showed us all? That is NOT the God I have come to know and love.

I'm sorry if this comes across as preaching at anyone, that is not my intention. I merely want to point out that everything we do, believe, say, how we act, all have consequences. And we are seeing the consequences of shutting God out of our lives as a nation.

I'll climb down from my soapbox now. Thank you for reading this.

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You sing in my consciousness like a counterpoint to my life.
L.L.

[purrplebear]

I just read the last couple of posts that came up while I was typing my post. I feel compeled to add this:
In large part because of my faith, I accept people for who and what they are. I don't care whether you are gay or straight, tall or short, black or white, or any other color for that matter, or what religion, or lack of you may have. I think that ALL of us, every single human being on this planet, are worthy, special, and first-class members of the human race. And, not only can each and every one of us trace our roots back to Adam and Eve, but even more recently, to Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives.

We are all in this boat together, and we must all take our turn at the oars. No one person is better equipped than another to do that.

For the record, if it matters to anyone, I appear to be 'white'. I also can claim 9 different nationalities in my background, including 2 native american indian. It is entirely possible that I may also have some black and other 'colors' in my makeup, I don't know for sure, and quite frankly don't care. I'll say it again, we are all God's children, all the same in His eyes.
So, don't spout prejudice at me, you won't find any here.

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You sing in my consciousness like a counterpoint to my life.
L.L.

[GolfWidow]

I going to agree with SwimmingRiddles. I don't believe in organized religion. Nevertheless, that's a whole other subject (my opinion changed once I moved to the South). I believe that that the "family unit" has fallen apart. When I was a kid, and most of my friends agree on this, we sat down to dinner EVERY night at 6:00 for dinner and talk about our day, with an exception of the occasional Saturday night when my parents went out and we had a babysitter who ordered pizza.

I know, I know, there are a lot of one-parent families now, almost all parents work, and parents work different shifts, but all parents should make an effort to spend quality time with their children. Kids these days aren't taught right from wrong, and have no morals or family values whatsoever. It's such a shame to see that these are the people who are going to take care of us one day (or are they?).

This is probably the main reason why I don't have children. I know I'm too selfish and they wouldn't get 100% from me.

Sorry for rambling. I, too, will now climb down off my soapbox.

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"Words fascinate me. They always have. For me, browsing in a dictionary is like being turned loose in a bank." - Eddie Cantor

[Myron Van Horowitzski]

trying to eradicate religion from our daily lives

Who's doing that? It's illegal. Same as having religion forced into our daily lives.

Your brain-in-a-jar,
Myron

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Imbibo, ergo sum.

[purrplebear]

Originally posted by Myron Van Horowitzski:
Who's doing that? It's illegal. Same as having religion forced into our daily lives.

Officially true. However, why then can't our children, those who are so inclined, start the school day with a silent prayer? Why did my son get in trouble just for carrying his bible to school? Why was my daughter threatened by a teacher for DARING to discuss Jesus with a fellow student who had brought the subject up in the hall before school? You can't have it both ways.

I completely agree that no one should force their beliefs, religious or otherwise down anyone else's throats. By the same token, we should have the right to discuss our beliefs in a calm manner wherever we may happen to be, with those who want to hear/participate in said discussion. And, without being threatened by authority figures for doing it.

I also agree with GolfWidow about the family unit. It is being systematically destroyed by all of the negative forces in this country. We try to eat at least one meal together every day, usually supper, and discuss the day's events, or whatever we want to discuss that night. I have spent most of my adult life attempting to raise our children to be happy, independent, self-sustaining adults, who will be prepared to contribute in some way to our society in a positive way.



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You sing in my consciousness like a counterpoint to my life.
L.L.

[UncleBeer]

We are ALL God's children

So, if I deny the existence of God, does that mean that also do not exist?

[UncleBeer]

Whoa, I guess it's true.

What I meant to say is, "So, if I deny the existence of God, does that mean that Ialso do not exist?

[Trout Mask Replica]

Originally posted by purplebear:
Officially true. However, why then can't our children, those who are so inclined, start the school day with a silent prayer?

They can. According to the Supreme Court, prayer is not prohibited in school. What is prohibited is the school mandating or sponsoring a prayer.

Why did my son get in trouble just for carrying his bible to school? Why was my daughter threatened by a teacher for DARING to discuss Jesus with a fellow student who had brought the subject up in the hall before school?

This sort of thing should not happen. It's just as wrong to keep a child from practicing their religion as it is to force them to pray to a god they may not believe in.

I'm an atheist. I don't believe in any god. But it's no skin off my nose if you want to pray to God or Allah or Vishnu or the Invisible Pink Unicorn. Just don't use your religion as a weapon to beat nonbelievers over the head with.



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TMR
LETS RIDE THIS SAUCER FULL OF SupErlovE INTO OUR FORTOLD UTOPIAN MILLENIUM...

[C3]

I'd like to add that not ALL children today are lacking in morals, discipline, or desire to be good people. Although I see a lot of kids and say to myself, "I would never have gotten away with that when I was his age" (and I'm only 27), I believe that kids like that are still the minority. I know a lot of children and teenagers that try to do well in school, are respectful of their elders, are generally polite, and have a good moral base.
I think discussions like this sometimes tend to paint kids as god-awful hellions.

[Trout Mask Replica]

Originally posted by UncleBeer:
Whoa, I guess it's true.

What I meant to say is, "So, if I deny the existence of God, does that mean that I also do not exist?

'Oh dear,' said UncleBeer, and vanished in a puff of logic.



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TMR
LETS RIDE THIS SAUCER FULL OF SupErlovE INTO OUR FORTOLD UTOPIAN MILLENIUM...

[SwimmingRiddles]

Originally posted by purplebear:
Whatever you perceive Almighty God to be, whatever name you choose to call Him by, however you decide to worship Him, it only matters that you DO it. Without Him in our lives, as a guiding light if you will, as a hallmark of how to live and how to treat each other, we are much diminished as individuals and worse, as a nation.

First of all, Purplebear, this may post may come across as attacking you directly. I just want to say that I have nothing against you personally.

What is it about Christians that they feel that not only is their way the ONLY way, but that it is also the best way? You do NOT have to beleive in a God to be a functioning member of society. You don't even need a god to be a religious person. Buddhism has no diety. So by saying that anyone who does NOT believe in a God is living a purpose-less life is insulting, not only to athiests, and agnostics, but millions of Buddhists and Taoists.

The fact of the matter is that it is not an easy thing for a kid to be different in ANY way. And when Christian children are brought up believing that their way is the only way, and that all other children are going to hell, those OTHER children hear about that. And internalize it. So why should the American public school system foster that kind of attitude? Why not just say that school is not a place for relgion, any more than work is. If a co-worker started talking about Jesus at work, yea, he'd get talked to about that. Relgion does not belong in an office. Relgion does not belong in a school.

[purrplebear]

Originally posted by UncleBeer:
What I meant to say is, "So, if I deny the existence of God, does that mean that Ialso do not exist?

Reread my post, UncleBeer. Truth is TRUTH, regardless of whether or not anyone believes it. You certainly do exist, and I am glad that you do, I like you; and yes you are a child of God. It saddens me that you don't believe in any God at all, but I respect your opinion on the matter. My opinion is just that, [i]MY[i][/b] opinion.


Trout Mask Replica, it may not be prohibited, but they allow no time to pray before class begins or a silent moment, nothing.Just, jump right into teaching.

I do agree with your last post, TMR, and I hope that I have never tried to 'beat anyone over the head' with my beliefs. I respect everyone's right to believe in, or not believe in, whatever they so choose. I do not think any less of anyone for having views different from my own, and I hope that no one thinks less of me for same.
The differences of opinions is one of the main reasons I like this board so much. I have learned many things here, and I've been digesting a lot of food for thought.



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You sing in my consciousness like a counterpoint to my life.
L.L.

[ultress]

I agree with you 100% Purplebear.

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I've learned that if someone says something unkind about me, I must live so that no one will believe it.

[cher3]

Truth may be truth, but the world described in the OP is not truth. It never existed, and who would want it to? Many, many people fought for a long time (and are still fighting) for equal rights, for safe, legal abortion, for freedom of religion (including the freedom not to have one), and for recognition of the fact that not every family fits into the same mold.

[KSO]

Excuse me, Mr. Moderator? It would appear that a Great Debate has arisen in the midst of all this mundanity.

[monster]

SwimmingRiddles, you hit the nail on the head. I do not practice any religion. I am unsure as to the existance of any God. Logic tells me evolution has created this world. However, I AM a good person. (Really!!!) I treat everyone with respect. I say please, and obey the law. I teach my son manners and repect for authority. I don't steal, and haven't committed murder. Is society falling apart because I (am the millions who are just like me) don't go to church every Sunday? I find that a little hard to believe!

[Esprix]

Originally posted by purplebear:

Truth is TRUTH, regardless of whether or not anyone believes it.

And to which "Truth," exactly, are you referring? There seem to be an awful lot of them out there...

Now, if you're saying, "This country has lost its moral compass," that might be a legitimate debate. But saying, "This country has lost its moral compass because we don't all worship God" insults more folks than you can shake a stick at.

In the 1950's, there may have been less gun-toting teenagers, but I would have been run out of town on a rail for who I loved. I'll take today, thank you.

Esprix

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Ask the Gay Guy!

[Esprix]

Originally posted by purplebear:

I think that ALL of us, every single human being on this planet, are worthy, special, and first-class members of the human race...

We are all in this boat together, and we must all take our turn at the oars. No one person is better equipped than another to do that...

I'll say it again, we are all God's children, all the same in His eyes...

D'oh! Serves me right for not reading the whole thread before posting. If this is more akin to your point, then I agree more than disagree.

I'll still take today over then, with the caveat that both time periods need(ed) tweaking.

Esprix

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Ask the Gay Guy!

[Esprix]

Originally posted by GolfWidow:

This is probably the main reason why I don't have children. I know I'm too selfish and they wouldn't get 100% from me.

Wow - very astute and responsible of you. I'm kind of in the same boat, so I agree with you - I want kids, but I know I'm not ready for them... yet.

Esprix

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Ask the Gay Guy!

[purrplebear]

Originally posted by SwimmingRiddles:
What is it about Christians that they feel that not only is their way the ONLY way, but that it is also the best way? You do NOT have to beleive in a God to be a functioning member of society. You don't even need a god to be a religious person. Buddhism has no diety. So by saying that anyone who does NOT believe in a God is living a purpose-less life is insulting, not only to athiests, and agnostics, but millions of Buddhists and Taoists.

I did not say that. I said it is important for all of us to believe in something, or someone outside ourselves. To live a purposeful, meaningful life, we can not be self-absorbed and ignore everyone else out there. I made no attacks on anyone not holding to my beliefs, which you still only know a small part of, don't claim to know how I feel about something I haven't said anything about yet.

The fact of the matter is that it is not an easy thing for a kid to be different in ANY way. And when Christian children are brought up believing that their way is the only way, and that all other children are going to hell, those OTHER children hear about that. And internalize it.

I have never told my kids that, nor would I. Don't make judgments about how I raise my kids, you don't know. I happen to personally believe that the Christian way is the best, but it is certainly not the ONLY way to go.


So why should the American public school system foster that kind of attitude? Why not just say that school is not a place for relgion, any more than work is. If a co-worker started talking about Jesus at work, yea, he'd get talked to about that. Relgion does not belong in an office. Relgion does not belong in a school.

If you are truly a believer, be it Christian, Buddhist, or whatever, I would hope that you would try to live it, 24/7. That means it's a part of you, and it will show in some way, wherever you are, whatever you're doing, in all of your interactions with others. Work, school, doesn't matter. I'm not a parttime Christian.
And, before someone says it, yes, I flirt on this board, I like to flirt. But, I never cross the line, everyone should by now know that I am married. And, my hubby knows about this board, and has no problem with what I say here.
I value everyone's opinions. I have learned, and plan on continuing to learn from this place. I hope that my opinion may be of some worth to someone here, or at least offer food for thought.



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You sing in my consciousness like a counterpoint to my life.
L.L.

[purrplebear]

Originally posted by Esprix:
And to which "Truth," exactly, are you referring?

We all are members of the species homo sapiens. TRUTH. We all have the right, the power to choose our own path.TRUTH. You're right, there are a lot of truths out here.

Now, if you're saying, "This country has lost its moral compass," that might be a legitimate debate. But saying, "This country has lost its moral compass because we don't all worship God" insults more folks than you can shake a stick at.

And, I agree, IF that had been what I was saying. This country has lost it's moral compass. Period.

In the 1950's, there may have been less gun-toting teenagers, but I would have been run out of town on a rail for who I loved. I'll take today, thank you.

Esprix

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You sing in my consciousness like a counterpoint to my life.
L.L.

[Eve]

"Truth is TRUTH, regardless of whether or not anyone believes it."

"My opinion is just that, MY opinion."

—So which one is it?

[Delta-9]

purplebear said:
I hope that I have never tried to 'beat anyone over the head' with my beliefs.

and

Truth is TRUTH, regardless of whether or not anyone believes it . . . yes you are a child of God . . .

You may not be beating me over the head with this, but it's still offensive that you feel that your belief is the only truth.

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
Delta-9 Home Page

[Dirty Devil]

It's times like this that make me so happy that I'm a calm, quiet, non-pontificating agnostic (non-theist may actually be a better word). With calm, quiet, non-pontificating agnostic children. Hey, and guess what? They happen to be very good, upstanding kids, despite the fact that they don't pray to your god or read your ancient little book. Could it be that parents are actually the ones that most influence their kids, and not some religious dogma from 2,000 years ago? Nah, that couldn't be it. I must be lying about my kids, right? Yeah, that's it. They're really just a couple of little cretins, devoid of any and and all morals and values because I don't take them down to the local Gods-R-Us every Sunday. Thanks a lot for the faith in my child raising abilities.

purplebear said: "And, not only can each and every one of us trace our roots back to Adam and Eve, but even more recently, to Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives."

Really? I'd love a link to that family tree. I've traced my lineage back pretty far, but I never knew about this. Please elaborate. With scientific fact, of course. (Yeah, I didn't think so.)

[purrplebear]

*Sigh* I'll try again. I'm sorry that my words are coming across in an offensive manner, that was never my intention. Let me see if I can clarify my position any better.

First, thank you, ultress, for your support.
monster: of course not! going to church, in and of itself, changes NOTHING, unless we also put into practice whatever we may learn there.
Thank you, MVH, I have, the teacher and students were both reprimanded. How sad is that? As for prayer, what and who would it hurt to take 30seconds at the start of the day for silence<be that prayer or whatever time>?
Eve, it is BOTH. I'm not talking about MY truth, I'm talking about a universal truth, such as the sun is very hot. Or, that there is no oxygen to breathe in outer space. Those things are true, whether or not anyone wants to believe them. That is the kind of truth I'm referring to. And my opinion is my opinion. I do not insist or expect anyone else to agree with me. I only offer it here as one choice among many, and I am constantly re-evaluating my opinion, based on new information I come across.
Delta-9, I'm sorry that you feel I was insisting on that. That is not what I was saying at all. My belief is certainly not the only truth in this world, but I do believe, on a day sometime in the future, that we will all stand before God and learn which of us was right. I believe that my belief on this matter is a universal truth, like the sun and the moon, and the air we breathe. I also firmly believe that we all have the right to choose our own path. Do not condemn me for my choice, as I am certainly not condemning anyone else for theirs.
I never intended to cause so much anger and outrage by my statements. I respect all of you for who and what you are. I most FIRMLY believe that the single greatest gift that God has given mankind is the power to choose.



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You sing in my consciousness like a counterpoint to my life.
L.L.

[purrplebear]

Originally posted by Dirty Devil:
They happen to be very good, upstanding kids, despite the fact that they don't pray to your god or read your ancient little book.

I'm very glad to hear that. No suprise to me. I NEVER said that I have the only answers. And, for the record, He is not just MY God, anymore than the sun in the sky is MY sun.
Could it be that parents are actually the ones that most influence their kids, and not some religious dogma from 2,000 years ago?

Yes, you are correct, parents, for good or ill, are the ones that most influence their kids. I'm glad to hear that you are a good parent, from other posts you've made, I feel certain of that.

They're really just a couple of little cretins, devoid of any and and all morals and values because I don't take them down to the local Gods-R-Us every Sunday. Thanks a lot for the faith in my child raising abilities.

I have a lot of faith in your abilities to raise your children. I have never seen you post anything to make me think otherwise. There are a great many people out there who have the same morals and values as I do, without necessarily being Christians too. There is nothing wrong with that. I have not attacked you or your beliefs, why do you feel the need to attack me and mine?

purplebear said: "And, not only can each and every one of us trace our roots back to Adam and Eve, but even more recently, to Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives."

Really? I'd love a link to that family tree. I've traced my lineage back pretty far, but I never knew about this. Please elaborate. With scientific fact, of course. (Yeah, I didn't think so.)

Scientists are finding more and more proof that they were wrong about the dinosaurs, especially in regards to how old the fossils may actually be. I feel very confident that the proof of our joint ancestry will be found some day. Not having the evidence does not nullify the truth of something. Are you saying that because man could not PROVE the world was round at one time, that the world was flat after all? And now it's round, only because we can PROVE it to be?



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You sing in my consciousness like a counterpoint to my life.
L.L.

[Eve]

"I'm talking about a universal truth, such as the sun is very hot. Or, that there is no
oxygen to breathe in outer space. Those things are true, whether or not anyone wants to believe them. That is the kind of truth I'm referring to."

But, Purple, these are proveable scientific facts. Religious beliefs are not-they are, simply, beliefs. You're very reasonable in saying that "it's my opinion." I agree—and if believing in religion makes you happy, then I say, 'yay for you', and wouldn't dream of trying to change your mind.

But you can't go around calling your religious beliefs Absolute Truth, or you're going to find an awful lot of people who will take issue with that.

[Delta-9]

Originally posted by purplebear:

I do believe, on a day sometime in the future, that we will all stand before God and learn which of us was right. I believe that my belief on this matter is a universal truth

Here's the sticky part for me. Yeah, the sun is hot and space has no oxygen, but when we start talking about spiritual things, I don't think the term "universal truth" can apply.

Let's just agree to disagree, 'kay?

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
Delta-9 Home Page

[Esprix]

Originally posted by purplebear:

Scientists are finding more and more proof that they were wrong about the dinosaurs, especially in regards to how old the fossils may actually be.

Uh, purp, you better cite some reliable sources for this quick, or I don't think you'll need to worry about if God is real or not for very long...

Esprix

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Ask the Gay Guy!

[phouka]

Okay, purplebear, show me the thermometer that has measured the temperature of God. Or the spectral analyzer that has determined the oxygen content of God. Or the shadow of a planet that, when falling over its moon during an eclipse, proves that God exists and is spherical in nature.

You can't. Because Faith of one type or another cannot be proven. That is its nature.

For a moment, please set aside the idea of Truth and concentrate on fact. The fact that your faith exists is not open to debate. I accept your statement as valid proof. But to leap from there to saying that the details of your faith are fact - verifiable and undebatable - implies that all other faiths are incorrect and invalid. I do not accept that.

The world was a little less complicated for *some* people back in the fifties. The fact that it's become more complicated for those people doesn't mean that it's better or worse or more immoral or more moral, only that it's different, and the most certain faith can be tested in the face of constant change.

[Narile]

SwimmingRiddles, I believe that it was once discussed here how 'Galileo was killed/imprisioned for claiming the Earth circled the Sun' is an incorrect statement. I will attempt to look it up.....

Here we go.... http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/F...ML/000259.html



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>>Being Chaotic Evil means never having to say your sorry....unless the other guy is bigger than you.<<

---The dragon observes

[purrplebear]

Delta-9, I agree to disagree. I value your opinions, I don't necessarily agree with them.
Eve, again, I said that some day, the proof will be found. I believe that Judgment Day will come, and we will all know for sure on that day. I can't prove it at this time, but again, neither could mankind prove the world was round for centuries. That lack of proof didn't make the world any less round, did it?
Esprix, I would love to offer proof. However, all I can remember is it was on a show on the Discovery Channel several months ago(since early Dec.'99) I am too new at this computer and 'net to do a search properly. If you would be so kind as to tell me how to do a search, I'll be happy to.
The last part of your sentence almost sounded like a threat. I hope, based on your other posts I have read, you did not mean it that way.
phouka, I refer to an earlier statement I made. Just because there is not CURRENTLY any verifiable proof does not in any way nullify said truth. So, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Also, again, just because a truth is unpleasant or uncomfortable for someone doesn't mean it isn't still the truth. All I'm saying is that, for me, I accept the existence of God as fact. You, and everyone else is quite free to disagree, that is what this country is founded on, and I will defend that right for everyone.

I have attacked no one on this board. Ever. And yet, for daring to offer my opinion on this matter, I have been attacked numerous times today. It makes me very sad that this is so. I thought we could discuss our different views without personal attacks here. Fine. So be it. I guess I do need to keep my opinions to myself.

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You sing in my consciousness like a counterpoint to my life.
L.L.

[SwimmingRiddles]

Truth is an indivitual thing. It is not universal. Galileo was killed for discovering a truth the church wasn't ready for.

School is for learning. It is not for praying. That's what church is for. If a family wants to begin their day with a prayer, why can't they do that in their own kitchen? I just don't understand what possible place religion could have in schools, other than to teach tolerance.

[Myron Van Horowitzski]

Why did my son get in trouble just for carrying his bible to school? Why was my daughter threatened by a teacher for DARING to discuss Jesus with a fellow student who had brought the subject up in the hall before school? You can't have it both ways.

This is wrong. You should speak to the principal about this.

but they allow no time to pray before class begins or a silent moment, nothing. Just, jump right into teaching.

But I have to disagree on this one; prayer must be done on the student's own time, not class time.

[TwistofFate]

Purplbear you know I respect you, but i have said this before, and no doubt I will say it again,

"We should have as high a regard for Religion so as to keep it out of as many things as possible"

If a family wants to pray, let them pray. If school children want to pray, let them pray themselves.

If they want to learn about how good having Religion can be, let them sign up for RE classes. if they want an objective view, let them do history.

I have faith, but I cannot trust organized religion.

as for the original post, Kids did go missing, people were alcoholics, did drugs and had affairs in the 50's. Things werent any better then then they are now. Its just we know more about it in this Decade.

I respect your beliefs, but if I ever had kids, I would want them to discover faith for themselves, not to have anyone elses faith imposed upon them.


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Id rather be no one than someone with no one

[MadPoet]

And now a statement that will put anyone who knows me into shock.

I agree with the article.

We need religion folks. Religion is all that keeps the teeming millions in check in times of hardship. Without the fear of god in the simple minded, where would we be? Without fear of a higher power, what stops a man from violence or depravity? Morality? Morality is not human nature, and while I know that all of us here are moral, I also know that the ones out there are not. With no god, how do you get the masses to accept death? With no god, how do you get them to accept a life of squallor? How do you shame them from behavior that is detrimental to society?

There are poor people out there. There are stupid people out there. There are people that will never rise to the top. All men are not created equal. Life is fair only in that it is unfair to everyone. So if it takes a god to give some people a reason, let them have their reason.

I suppose I have it easy.. I'm an agnostic. I just sit on the fence and let the two sides duke it out. But from my viewpoint, I see the merit in both sides. We need religion to keep atheism from turning to nihilism. But we also need clearer minds to keep religion from becoming fanaticism. Life's about balance, and I think we could use some in all branches of society.

Random quotes I couldn't work in (partly because I can't spell necessary without finding a dictionary):
If there were no God, it would be necessary to invent him.
Religion is the opiate of the masses.

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http://www.madpoet.com
"I never meant to hurt you," you said,
And buried yourself in lies instead.
Next time I would rather be slain,
Than forced to bear your mercy again.