are jewish fundamentalism the biggest threat in the Israel-Palestine conflict ?

Great Debates
1

My question is actually taken from a book-review which describes how jewish fundamentalism have increast in Israel the last decades and are now an important group that can’t longer be ignored by the israeli politicans.
It’s frightening to read this and how extreme their racism are, a racism that seams rooted in jewish religion.
Reviewed by Allan C. Brownfeld, Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel,
By Israel Shahak and Norton Mezvinsky.

here are some quotes from the review:

I’m very alarmed about this growing attitude towards non-jews and I expect that this will be confronted either by USA og Israeli politicans.
It’s also alarming to see that most of these extreme viewpoints comes from ultra-religious jews that grew up in USA.

I expect this to be taken seriously!

2

Apparently not:

I suspect that far fewer than 75% of Israelis are “fundamentalists”.

3

Are you sure this is the debate you wanted? if so, isn’t it obvious? Every time a peace process ever makes any substantial headway, those racist (or ethnocentric) Jews run out and grab their bomb vests to go shopping in the most crowded public place they can find just to see what Palistinians insides look like.

If Jewish Fundamentalism is your main concern in the Israel/Palistinina conflict, how can you be expected to be taken seriously?

4

The major cause of problems is the Palestinians. The Palestinians do not want peace, they want to exterminate all Jews. If they had wanted peace, then Arafat would have given 100% backing to their first “prime minister” and shut down Hamas and all those other groups. Instead, they know that they can lie all they want and when they turn around and show their true colors their liberal butt-monkeys will ride to their defense.

5

Dogface… Interesting use of language… Pit-worthy, but far from helpful…

Serious answer: yes, Jewish extremists are an obstacle to peace, but far from the most serious. Agressive settlement-building, intransigence, and the coalition-making power of a tiny minority gives them an exaggerated role, but their actual numbers are quite small.

Trinopus

6

I agree with Trinopus. Certainly Jewish religous extremists are A barrier to peace, but a small one, hardly “the biggest threat”. The Muslim hatred of the Jews- which is taught and encouraged in many Arab nations- is the biggest threat. Kids are taught to hate the Jews, and hate America too. How can you have meaningful peace with someone you hate with every fiber of your being?

Attached to this is the PLO/Hamas terrorism. Aarafat is a terrorist himself. Terrorists know only that, and they can’t function in the “real world”. Thus, even if the majority of Palestinians want peace- the Terrorists won’t quit. What needs to be done is: stop teaching hatred, and round up and kill all the terrorists. This includes Arafat. Sounds like an oxymoron, true, but it is what has to be done.

The Isreali militants, especially those who want the spread of “settlements” are also a significant roadblock to Peace. I think that if the PLO moderates their position, this party will fall out of power by itself, but here I could be wrong. Although certainly the primary “blame” must be placed upon the PLO, etc- the Isrealis are hardly blameless. Some moderation is called for.

7

I disagree with the OP where it says that the described fundamentalism has its roots in the Jewish religion.
It certainly has its roots in a twisted interpretation of this religion.

As for the remarks of the other posters…
Before getting yourselves involved in any form of debate about this issue, it would be wise to reflect on it that the creation of Israel was and is a criminal unforgivable injustice on itself and one of the greatest stupidities the UN has on its account.
There lies the cause (not the beginning) of the whole problem.

You could in addition reflect on it that the occupation by Israel of the Palestinian territories is an other one.

You could also reflect on it that the openly demonstrated support by the US government(s) is an other one. (And especially this is not only causing trouble among the Palestinians).

I have a question for you:
Where do you think Israel would be if it wasn’t planted where it is now (and self-proclaimed its independency a bit later)and if it couldn’t count on the millions of dollars of support it received and still receives from the USA?

Would Israel have the money it has now, the weapons it has now, the military might it has now… And thus the ability to colonize and murder the Palestininans?

If the story was reversed, and it were the Palestinians who received a land inside a nation where Jews lived for centuries, would they receive the same support from the USA to “defend their nation” against those who were driven out, who are discriminated, who are occupied, terrorized and murdered?

And would you call those Jews, when they became out of sheer despair victims of political inspired groups and were led to become suicide bombers -by lack of other means and weapons to get the murderous occupyer out and have their land back - also terrorists?

To say it simple:
Do you think the Palestinians would have the same effective and intelligent lobby inside the USA and would the Palestinians have a secret service comparable to the Mossad, who operates and infiltrates on such a large scale?

While you are reflecting on this, you can do some google search to find some quotes of Ariel Sharon about the Palestinians and Arabs in general.
And while you are busy doing that, you can also do some search on what he has on his criminal record.

You can also do some search on the attacks on sovereign nations by Israel. The USA has learned a lot of them, and not only about attacking sovereign nations.

It is nice that you want to see and want to defend one side; but there are always two sides on the same coin.

Like for example the murderous attacks - five in a row - yesterday by Israel on Gaza City.
Killed were allegedly one member of Hames, at least four civilians and wounded were as far as I was informed yesterday around 40 others with among them very little children. My information is that there were children between two and four years old targetted by the Israelis in their muderous raids in clear daylight.
The death toll among the civilians can of course still rise and they counting of the wounded was not done yet.
Really, is that what you support so vehemently? Is that what you think is going to end this circle of violence?

Salaam. A

8

Aldebaran, Salaam: I disagree with your major premises… But that’s not important: Israel may have been wrongly founded, but it was founded. It exists. Since you can’t change the past, what path do you see forward?

Any path that involves the removal of the nation/state of Israel is going to be bloody… Isn’t a “two-state” approach the obvious optimum plan? Or, if not, what is?

Trinopus

9

I agree 100% with Trinopus.

One can argue about the justice/injustice of the establishment of the state of Israel. This is true of many, many countries today, including the USA. But a peace plan must include a two-state solution. Extremists on both sides (Palistinian suicide bombers and hard-line Israeli settlers in the West Bank) are roadblocks to peace.

Aldebaran: What plan do you propose?

10

Israel is a virtual prison for everyone living there. Everyone is afraid. This draws out the worst many ppl. I dont think this creed of Fundamentalist Jewish Zionists are any more dangerous than militant Palestinians or Christian Fundamentalist Zionists.

11

I’d wondered what happened to you Alde. I’m glad to see you still kicking.

12

First of all, some information for the ignorant. Your argument that Jewish fundamentalism finds its roots in the Jewish religion is silly because while there is a difference between a Jewish soul and a non-Jewish soul in Judaism, the Jew has no more rights than the Gentile, only more responsibilities (must follow laws about, e.g., kosher food, cleanliness, resting on the Sabbath). So at least to the extent that that is your argument, it is false.

Second, Jewish fundamentalism is a minor (although disproportionate) influence on Israeli politics. Even the settlements, the only major I-P issue with religious overtones, are not entirely based on religious fundamentalism. Many of the Israelis who support the settlements (who themselves are a minority AFAIK) believe that they are the only effective way Israel can hold a first line of defense against the Palestinians. An incorrect and immoral view IMHO, but far more practical than religious.

Third, if you want to talk about ideological causes, the major one is Palestinian nationalism, the widespread belief among Palestinians that all of Palestine, i.e. Israel and the Occupied Territories, is occupied. Islamic fundamentalism plays a role, but much less than Palestinian nationalism, and even it is far more powerful than Jewish fundamentalism. Kach, the only Jewish fundamentalist terrorist group, is illegal in Israel, and the law against it is consistently enforced. More than you can say for fundamentalist groups of some other religions in certain territories…

13

Since Israel was created there, it is utterly unrealistic to propagate its disappearance. And since the people who live there can’t help the criminal decisions made by colonizers who couldn’t handle the situation anymore, and those at the UN who were at the time suffering of post-colonial disease, it would be utterly injust to say to the Israelis they have to leave the land where they are born or which they consider as theirs.

But this reality doesn’t lead us to a solution, no?
So if it comes to a possible scenario…The best scenario of all would be that on both sides the old enemies could step aside and give others who are truly interested in a solution a chance.
This includes Sharon, Arafat, and the whole bunch around them.
It also includes all those who came from the inside and the outside to milk the situation out in the name of…(fill in here all that sounds fanatical extremist on both sides.)

Further it would be at this moment a necessity for the USA to back off, especially in its openly promoting Israel and supporting and financing it no matter the cost (in no matter which issue at stake).

The EU could play a role but only if they manage to finally form a united front.

The Arab League should stop looking at their navel and abandon their favourite pass time, which is shouting a bit at eachother and calling other members sons of dogs and the likes.
Eventually it could lead to all of them becoming a bit less self protecting and milking out the Palestine/Israel situation to diverse attention from the inside problems in their own nations, and try to look at it as they in fact most often do, but don’t show that much : sobering realistic.

Israel is now in the constructing business with their variation on what is known commonly as the German Wall (which divided the whole of Germany and you need to have been there to understand what that truly means)… The cementlobby is everywhere a strong one.
The USA is heading for elections, so the Jewish Lobby can’t be ignored.
The EU is fighting over a form of constitution. And in addition one of the latest inventions is a proposition that everybody needs to pass every ten years (every five years for those older then 65) a new exam in order to receive a new drivers licence. This is going to take a lot of time to debate on and to vote on… In order to get a united EU, as you surely understand.
The Arab League… I guess they are in their normal siesta state.
Sharon and Arafat are in their normal battle positions.
The extremists of all kinds have a lot of fun.

Then we have the UN, one should say. But there is a little problem because before they can come in action they first have to get rid of the US Veto Right.

We have Russia, but then the US’ers get visions of Mc. Carthy and cold war period to begin with and besides that: everyone who has ever studied a bit on Russian economy has not only a headache, but is in addition to that at the very least highly amused. So although Russia could in other times be on the stage, nowadays they can’t overrule a stubborn Israel promoting USA and they are even in a position to take notice of the powerless EU.

So I don’t see a solution right now, but miracles can happen and in addiotn to that hope: One and an other person is getting really really old.

Hence I should say:
Let time do its job to get rid of them.
Let’s hope that the USA gets a realistic government.
Let’s hope that the EU gets involved united.
Let’s hope that the Arab League comes to life miraculously.
Let’s hope that the UN can pass resolutions without the USA veto making it impossible.
Let’s hope that the most visible and vocal (and sounding) extremists on both sides get discouraged because people finally see some action and finally can have some hope on a solution.

Well, to see some little signe of hope overthere:
Don’t forget that many Israely soldiers already prefer prison to killing Palestinians.
Don’t forget that many Israely citizens are sick of all of this as well.
Don’t forget that Palestinian mothers who say on TV that their suicidal son (or daughter) is a hero, weap once the cameras are gone and are afraid day and night that their other children will be misled to do the same.
To understand this contradiction you must have feeling with the culture and soul of the tribal societies. You can not say your son is not a hero without recognizing he comitted suicide and thus brought shame to his family and betrayed his belief. (Suicide is forbidden in Islam.) You can’t dishouner your son and family on TV.
Of course there are people who believe those young people who kill themselves and a lot of innocents with them, are true heros fighting for liberation. And seen their hopeless situation and the lack of interest of the world to resolve it, I truly can understand why. If you are with your back against a concrete wall and humiliated, attacked, murdered, deprived of everything and see your land occupied and even your water, the life blood of your land, stolen under your very eyes, it is after a while impossible to see things in the same perspective as others maybe do.
(And take in mind that I mention water, because water is one of the issues in this conflict and shall become one of the main issues of later conflicts in the region too.)

The most unrealistic solution I can think of for this problem - and of almost all bloodshed worldwide - would be that people in general become less greedy and less capitalistic orientated.
But then you can say I speak against my own way of life, which I do. Although… The greedy thing is not part of it as far as I know.
And I don’t wish anybody dead. But now and then I almost pray to God to let a few people drop dead instantly so that they can’t do any more harm.
It is, when you reflect on it, amazing that so few people can influence so many and that this happens on a worldwide scale in any given time. This question was in fact one of the reasons I got addicted to the study of history.

I can’t predict how this situation is going to become finally history. But that something is going to happen by which the whole region risks to explode and gets involved, is very clear to me.
When you think of it that Israel has WMD, that they are not ashamed of attacking other nations, that they are supported by a president of the USA who is not ashamed of killing thousand for the sake of the US economy (and his own personal interests)…
I can tell you that it’s not looking good at all. And then I even speak here with my European half. The Arab part is extremely worried, extremely angry and at the same time inclined to say the fatalistic phrase Muslims are known for: God knows best. (This is what parallzes a bit the Arab League at crucial moments… At what they call crucial moments, that is).
Salaam. A

14

The lack of a majority of pragmatists on all sides is quite a stumbling block to the process. While there certainly are pragmatists, they don’t appear to be in the majority in that geographical area. ‘Unfortunate’ is a severe understatment.

15

Aldebaran were you actually going to discuss Jewish fundamentalism, or did you just want to rant about how evil Israel is?

16

I don’t know, SimonX, killing people before they kill you is about as pragmatic as it gets.

Going back to the OP, the article sounds kind of flaky. The only Judaism I know of says that all people, Jewish or otherwise, are holy and possess great moral dignity, having been made in the image of God Himself. God simply requires Jews to serve Him in a unique way. As for non-Jews having “‘satanic souls,’” Satan is not a Jewish concept. It’s as if someone said that Christians think Muslims are descended from djinns, so they aren’t really human.

17

I could not agree more, my friend! One of the few sensible comments in this Great Debate so far. All the better for being brief and answering the OP - a lesson here for me too I think!

I think it would be fair to say fundamental Jewish zionism is an
** increasing threat** , as if the whole situation needs another significant threat, to any progress towards a lasting resolution to the occupation/conflict. But the major threat? No, not yet at least.

18

Many mentioned that the Jewish Fundamentalists are a minority… as if implying that Hamas is a majority ? Most palestinians want peace… as I guess do most Israelis. So Dogfaced comments like “all palestinians want to exterminate Israel” arent exactly true are they ?

So yes Israeli fundamentalism and the power they wield are a serious impediment to a peace process… including US fundamentalists and Palestinian Fundamentalists.

19

That wasn’t the OP’s question Rashak. Quit trying to fit the questions to your answers. Although I do somewhat agree with the last post.

20

Trust me,you are dead wrong about this