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#1
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Medieval ignorance rears its head in Jawja
CNN reports that the state superintendent of schools for Georgia, Kathy Cox, has recommended that the word "evolution" be removed from the state curriculum and replaced with the phrase "biological changes over time." On the plus side, Ms. Cox has said that the concept of evolution would still be taught, that teachers would be allowed to use the word, and that the state would not be required to buy new textbooks. So what's the problem, you ask? Simply this.
There is no reason whatsoever to cave even one millimeter to the knuckle-dragging, Bible-beating troglodytes who want to impose their Mesopotamian mythology on the vulnerable minds of their children. Moreover, it's a useless proposal--it's not enough to please the creationists, who are upset that the idea will still be allowed in the classroom. To the fundies reading this: A cosmology that worked for Bronze age nomads has no utility in the 21st century. Adam and Eve are figures from Mesopotamian folktales, not real people. God didn't make people out of dirt 6,000 years ago, there was no universal flood and no ark, and the "kind" is not a taxonomical classification. You can ignore the wealth of evidence we have on the real origins of humanity and persist in your pitiful embrace of motheaten mythology, but kindly keep your assheaded ignorance away from children. And that big building with all the scary books? It's called a library (ly-BRAR-ee)--go get yourselves cards and let the sunlight of knowledge burn away the fog of unknowing.
__________________
"One good rule of thumb is that those who treat a collection of myths like a science book and a science book like a collection of myths are almost singularly ignorant of everything worth knowing in this world. "--Kirkland1244 |
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#2
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Also funny that what these same people want included in a science class has not succeeded in scientific journals, and can only be included by force of law and peer pressure. Fucking troglodytes. |
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#3
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Don't know what else I can add to this worthy pitting except my righteous indignation!
Backwards assholes. |
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#4
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There will be no peace until the last Fundamentalist is strangled with the entrails of the last Hawk...
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#5
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I almost posted this in GD a few days ago, but didn't think it was such a GD.
If you were a science teacher, and really really needed your job, and some fucknut legislator made it illegal to teach evolution (or to fail to teach ID), would you risk your job by breaking this law? How would you handle the situation? |
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#6
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A friend of mine who worked in a nature museum told me the tour guides decided to avoid potential trouble with fundie guests by replacing the word "evolved" with "adapted".
Thus making sure all their comments were FC.
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Just my 1.37 cents. |
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#7
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Sweetums |
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#8
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#9
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#10
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Gotta go with Metacom on this one. I am a teacher, and my job is to teach the curriculum. I do try to get The Truth out there whenever possible, but my job is to do what the School Board tells me to do. I live in a town that is 50% Mormon and 50% Baptist. Luckily, they tend to cancel each other out, and we can teach science without fundie interference.
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"He's right, you know." --Hal Briston |
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#11
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You know, I'm from the south. Born and raised here. Born in Kentucky, living in Tennessee. I love it down here. I try to convince people that we're not the stereotypical yokels. I hate it when on football broadcasts from Nashville they show people with cowboy hats listening to country music. I want people to look at us differently.
And then shit like this comes along. Sigh. |
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#12
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Of course, this is coming from a non-teacher thinking in purely theoretical terms, who risks nothing in fantasizing about taking the high road. YMMV. |
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#13
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Is there any point at which you'd draw a line? Would you really lie to children for money? Because that's what you'd be doing if you taught creationism.
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(In my opinion) |
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#14
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--thumbs up-- Oh, and yeah, fundamentalist activists suck. Anyone who's thinking about trying to defend this shit, you suck too. You have the right to believe in whatever nomadic thoughtspackle you like, but that right ends at the boundary of your own atrophied brain. |
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#15
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I'm not a teacher, although my sister has just become one. I'd like to think that, given the directive to teach "alternative theories" of cosmology or the development of life I would teach them as mythology, not as fact.
"Here's the deal kids. I'm supposed to tell you about this thing called Intelligent Design. That's just a different term for Creationism, which is something I can't teach because it's religious in origin and this is a public school, and we're lucky to have a concept in our country called "separation of church and state." Creationism is also wrong. It's a myth from a time when people didn't even understand the concept of evolution and had no scientific basis for explaining much of anything. Now we know better. Here's why. And then go on to explain how things really work. But again, I'm not a teacher so this is just what I think I would do.
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begbert2 - 2/27/09..."unrelenting, never ending foray into self-aggrandizement, debasement of one's opponents, and ridicule of things one doesn't believe in"? Dude, that's not atheism. That's the internet. |
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#16
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If I were a teacher? I'd tell the kids they need to learn about things in which they don't believe as well as things in which they do believe. Heck, every intelligent evolutionist reads everything possible about creationism in order to refute it; intelligent creationists should do the same regarding evolution.
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My tumor's babbies are trying to kill me. |
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#17
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I love this state, but I fucking hate some of the idiots in it.
__________________
"Sir, we'd like permission to search your pie."--Captain Stottlemeyer, Monk Playing City of Heroes? Find the Dopers you know and love here. In one of life's great ironies, we play on Virtue. GMRyujin is now known as Doomtrain. Now with 30% more doom. Doom! DOOM! |
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#18
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I love this state, but I fucking hate some of the idiots in it.
__________________
"Sir, we'd like permission to search your pie."--Captain Stottlemeyer, Monk Playing City of Heroes? Find the Dopers you know and love here. In one of life's great ironies, we play on Virtue. GMRyujin is now known as Doomtrain. Now with 30% more doom. Doom! DOOM! |
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#19
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#20
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Note the "lady of the rib" connection between Ninti and Eve among the other obvious parallels (the fashioning of the first man from clay, for example). The flood story also has a precursor in the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh which is about 3000 years older than Genesis.
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(In my opinion) |
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#21
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Okay, to be fair I knee-jerked when they advertised this on a news blurb yesterday. Then I heard the whole story, and I have to say I see where Cox is coming from. From the CNN article:
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It's stupid as hell to have to take these sorts of measures to protect the teachers and enable them to actually do what they're paid to, but if it 1) doesn't affect the curriculum (they're still teaching evolution, NOT replacing it with ID), and 2) takes some of the pressure off the teachers in these smaller, small-minded towns, then I say go ahead.
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pointedly does NOT cop a cheap feel from bobkitty, who he imagines has sharp claws and can hiss like a pissed-off bobcat-iampunha Baroness Junior Grade of Furry Wilderness Creatures. Home of the best hand-crafted ritual tools ANYWHERE: http://www.prisiadieco.com/ |
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#22
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Re: the OP, I dislike the idea of trying to hide evolution ... "It's not evolution, it's biological changes over time! See, over time, biological changes, which the scientific community refer to as evol*****, occured, which is why creatures that exist today are similar to ones from the past." I also dislike the idea of teaching as objective truth religion in any school funded by any state or the federal government. Teach them with the forewarning "this is what some people believe", certainly; and especially due to the heavy influence monotheistic religions have had on the world's people. But teaching that the first two people were white, pristine beings who talked to a serpent ... that smells of 'shrooms, and I ain't talking about Portobello. And I find it terribly amusing in a "how many people down there got addicted to the 'shrooms?" way that the word evolution is being considered a buzzword when it has been around lo these ... 150 years? Hell, compared to the word evolution, plastic and television are buzzwords; bet you won't see them being banned. |
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#23
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#24
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Living in Georgia right now, I can tell you there's a pretty big debate going on about this right now. Several professors from my university that I know of have written to the AJC about it. There is an online petition against the changes that has 1000+ signatures. Most people seem like they are against the change.
I feel like this whole thing was started by a loud minority of people. On the front page of the AJC this morning there's a quote: Quote:
Here's a link to the article on the AJC. Note the poll, 85%+ favor the word "evolution" right now... |
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#26
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I love my state...
I hate my state... *sigh* So tired of living around idiot fundies. I remember having ridiculous fights/debates/etc. over evolution in school. It gets really old having to listen to the same stupid crap over and over while they drone on and on about their bullshit. What is it about ignorance that is so fucking alluring to the jackasses down here? Bytopian "A watch is not fucking like a fucking animal you fucktard" Dream |
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#27
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This suggestion sounds an awful lot like the dodge my high school biology teacher pulled when a parent asked her not to teach their daughter evolution. But it still doesn't mean that it's right. Not saying the name only increases fear of the name itself. I know that the curriculum itself isn't being changed, but it adds a stigma to the knowledge that it surrounds. Ms. Cox would do better to tell the fundies to bugger off.
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It is a much better thing to be a smartass than to be the alternative. "I should not be penalized because I remembered to wear a condom." --tdn |
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#28
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#29
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Whew. I repeat that I love it here, but every now and then you gotta fire that torpedo. And Diogenes, thanks for that link; that's fascinating stuff, and totally new to me.
__________________
"This is parody's mission: it must never be afraid of going too far. If its aim is true, it simply heralds what others will later produce, unblushing, with impassive and assertive gravity." -- Umberto Eco, Preface to Misreadings (English translation 1993) |
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#30
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Guys, I know where you're coming from -- I'm a Christian!
Here's what I would like to say to one of these people just once: Quote:
CJ
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I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints! The sinners are much more fun. Billy Joel, Only the Good Die Young |
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#31
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Anyway, I find that in other parts of the country, some people, upon hearing my accent...well, you can kind of see the cogs rolling into place and that slight smile of superiority come across their face. Not everyone, of course, but it happens all the time. It's always the extremists that get the attention and affect the perception. Just like anywhere. They never show people that mind their own business on TV. |
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#32
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Another Georgian checking in...
The county where I practice law is the one of the counties involved in a federal lawsuit because they insist on having a copy of the ten commandments posted in the courthouse. They've had 2 or 3 rallies at the courthouse that have resulted in us having to move our court proceedings to another county during the rallies. We have zero, and I mean ZERO, security in our courthouse (unless you count the sign on the courthouse door that says it's illegal to bring weapons into the courthouse) because the county says it's too expensive, but they're spending big bucks on legal fees to keep a copy of the ten commandments in the courthouse. And now this. ::Sigh::
Yesterday, I actually heard a courthouse employee say, with a smug air of superiority, "Well, if evolution is true, then why are there still monkeys?" The mind boggles. |
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#33
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Folks, let's try not to get on Supervisor Cox's case too much here. She's not changing the wording because SHE believes that evolution is false. She's changing the wording in an attempt to sneak some science education into the more conservative areas of her state. She hasn't banned the teaching of evolution. She hasn't changed the use of the word "evolution" because she believes it's wrong and Goddidit. She's trying to sneak some actual science under the radar of the Elmer Gantrys. Cut her a break.
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#34
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I'm not sure Superintendent Cox IS trying to insure 'real scince' is taught in the classroom. This quote from the Atlanta Journal-Constitution casts doubt on her motives to me:
"She said students need to understand that science is constantly changing and they need to be exposed to all legitimate theories. Cox said that could include the teaching of "intelligent design," though it is not specifically mentioned in the proposed curriculum. Most scientists deride "intelligent design" -- the idea that life arose through a purposeful design by a higher being -- as junk science. But Cox described it as a scientific theory that could be discussed in science classes. "That is a scientific theory," she said. "Now people say, 'Oh, those folks, they're kook scientists.' But it does have scientists, rather than theologians, talking about other ways we may have come into being."" You can contact Kathy Cox, the Georgia State School Superintendent, if you would like to share your opinion about this issue at this address: KathyCox@doe.k12.ga.us She should not be confused with Cathy Cox, the Georgia Secretary of State. __________________
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Always swimming upstream of the herd. |
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#35
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I'm a Southerner, and have lived in Atlanta since 1988. I'm not cutting Kathy Cox any slack. She campaigned to be elected state School Superintendent, and it's her job to do for the state what we do for fun here -- combat ignorance. Instead, she's collaborating with the enemy.
(Incidentally, the state Secretary of State is Cathy Cox. In 2002, they were both on the ballot, and some people were confused, thinking that they were the same person... thinking that somehow Cathy Cox, the incumbent Secretary of State, running for reelection as a Democrat, was also Kathy Cox, running for Superintendent of Schools, as a Republican.) Here's an exact quote from Superintendant Cox about avoiding use of the word evolution: "By putting the word in there, we thought people would jump to conclusions and think, 'OK, we're going to be teaching the monkeys-to-man sort of thing.' Which is not what happens in a modern biology classroom." When I heard her on the radio saying that, it was a true WTF moment for me. In fact, I probably said out loud, "What the fuck is she talking about?" Still wondering. I'm getting the impression that she has a very limited understanding of modern science. She had already pissed off history teachers and social studies teachers with the changes she wanted to make in their curricula. (For instance, in Georgia high schools, "World History" will now start with the year 1500.) Jimmy Carter has weighed in, saying "Nationwide ridicule of Georgia's public education system will be inevitable if this proposal is adopted." Our current governor, big ol' Sonny Purdue, simply said "I trust the Superintendent and the Board of Education."
__________________
"Religion disperses like a fog, kingdoms perish, but the works of scholars remain for an eternity" -- Ulug'bek; Afghan astronomer-prince, beheaded by religious people in 1449. |
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#36
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Baldwin, she's right, in a sense. Modern science doesn't teach a "monkey-to-man" view of evolution.
Yes, not using the word "evolution" is a compromise. But it's a compromise that benefits real science education much more than it benefits Goddiditism. "Creation science" makes my teeth hurt. Literally. But I'd rather have evolution taught as "changes over time" than not have it taught at all because everybody's having a giant clusterfuck over a word. |
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#37
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I really can't see how not using one of the [b]central/b] terms of modern biology can be an acceptable compromise. If you teach everything about current thinking on evolution without using the word evolution, some bright kid is going to raise his hand and ask, "Why aren't we calling evolution evolution?" So what's the point? According to an article in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, the proposed curriculum doesn't just omit the word "evolution", it omits some pretty key points. Specifically: the fact that modern species developed from earlier forms that were distinct species; and the essential mechanism of evolution: mutation and natural selection. Not exactly a compromise; more like a decision to make sure that Georgia high school students are going to need remedial biology courses when they go to college. And why the hell should there be a "compromise", anyway? How about just teaching science? |
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#38
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Damn it, I wish we could edit our posts. Sorry about the bad coding.
__________________
"Religion disperses like a fog, kingdoms perish, but the works of scholars remain for an eternity" -- Ulug'bek; Afghan astronomer-prince, beheaded by religious people in 1449. |
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#39
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Hmm...that changes things. I was informed that it was pretty much just a cosmetic omission of the word.
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#40
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#41
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#42
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It is entirely possible to grow up in a Christian (self-identifying or otherwise) community and not realize for quite some time (I was a teenager) that Jesus probably did not have pure white skin, blue eyes and wavy hair, let alone that he was decently close to what is now called Iraq. |
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#43
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#44
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I don’t know what all the fuss is about. Just because some glorified clerk in some Education Department recommends that:
"evolution" be removed from the state curriculum and replaced with the phrase "biological changes over time." So what? As far as I can work out, that’s just a slightly long winded way of saying “evolution”, isn’t it? And why did the OP decide to evolve the name of the state to “Jawja” anyway. Did he think it would add weight to his argument (such as it is). Incidentally, Diogenes TC I am not a fanatical member of the grammar/typo police, but if you have to make that statement your sempiternal signature tune, please review your: “… all you've done is won an argument with a moron.” |
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#45
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To Bobkitty you listen, yes!
__________________
Several billion trillion tons of superhot exploding hydrogen nuclei rose slowly above the horizon and managed to look small, cold and slightly damp. |
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#46
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Confused UK Doper checking in...
Are they allowed to teach creationism then? What if a parent objected to this? What about genetic engineering? Is it taught in schools in Georgia? Is not being able to teach evolution a widespread issue in America or is it confined to a few/some/most states? |
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#47
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Tuco, public schools are not permitted to teach creationism in schools. Some schools resist teaching evolution by teaching it only in the sketchiest terms without making reference to common descent.....("animals can adapt over time. Next subject.) Some will just avoid the subject altogether. There is a political effort in some school districts to teach "Creation Science" as an "alternative theory" to evolution but such efforts have been thankfully unsuccessful.
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(In my opinion) |
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#48
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(In my opinion) |
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#49
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The Federal government lays down really vague guidelines for how smart kids have to be (meaning that they determine that the kids all have to be tested and if any school district suffers poor grades on the tests--for example, because the district cannot afford to buy enough books for all the kids--then the Feds will take more money away from the support of those schools to punish them for doing a bad job). The State governments set the general requirements to get a high school diploma, (meaning they design (or buy) the individual tests on which the kids will be scored to demonstrate their prowess to the Feds as well as indicating the sorts of topics the schools should teach). In many, but not all, states, the government chooses which text books are permitted--in a few states, the textbooks are limited to state choices. * The Local School District sets the actual curriculum in most states, deciding which year any given course is offered as long as all the state's mandates are met in the 13 years of K-12 education. The local district also does the hiring and firing of teachers, using community pressure and the teacher review system to hire or fire teachers based on perceived quality. (Thus, the effort of the Georgia Superintendent to hide the word Evilution from the standardized tests so as to prevent the various communities where religious fervor opposes that topic from rebelling against the state mandates and possibly getting her thrown out of office in the next election. As long as the number of kids who pass the standardized tests stay above some minimal level, no state Board of Education is going to risk the wrath of the voters by interfering.) The teacher then walks into the classroom with the weight of all those vague (or, sometimes, too specific) "guidelines" hanging over his or her head and proceeds to brilliantly engage the students in ways that will inculcate knowledge and understanding (or to dully slog through the material in ways that will cause the children to take a single test with some modicum of success and then forget all the genuine information involved). In recent years, the success or failure of the children to produce good scores on state-sponsored standardized tests has often become the primary evaluation key for any given teacher's salary or ability to maintain employment in a district. * (The state of Ohio recently went through a flirtation with teaching "Intelligent Design" alongside Evolution. Despite the fervor of several truly dumb Board members--forget their religious biases, based on their comments, I am not sure some of them could graduate from the high school I attended a generation ago--the "ID" plan was not adopted after a protracted campaign by people interested in science. Kansas and a few other states have had similar experiences, in the last few years.) |
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#50
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The School Superintendent for Georgia is not a glorified clerk. It's an elected position, and the person holding that office affects educational policy for every public school in the state.
Fortunately, Superintendent Cox's curriculum is a proposal, not yet a fact. There's been a strong reaction against it, and Gov. Perdue has now said that he disagrees with the idea, and that it's silly to teach evolution without the word "evolution". So it may turn out to be much ado about nothing. Still an embarrassment.
__________________
"Religion disperses like a fog, kingdoms perish, but the works of scholars remain for an eternity" -- Ulug'bek; Afghan astronomer-prince, beheaded by religious people in 1449. |
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