The Confederate Flag flaps

[Honeyko]

(Pursuant to the Cecil column in which he rejects the assumption that "squaw" was always a derogatory term.)

Outside of the very recent self-fulfilling prophecy of black leaders denouncing the confederate "stars & bars" battle flag (CBF) quickly resulting in various white-power outfits slapping the icon onto various knickknacks for sale, has the confederate flag has historical connotations of racism in the years after the Civil War, I mean, specifically beyond its broad-bases identification with all things southern (or, less common, rebel)?

Data points:

1) I don't remember any hysteria when "The Dukes of Hazzard" was airing weekly in the 80's, in which the star attraction was our boys' souped-up Dodge Charger painted day-glo orange with the CBF sprawled across the roof.

2) If Martin Luther King or Malcolm X had any complaints about it, I figure I would have heard the tapes played back to me by now.

3) In all the (older) historical imagery I can find of the Ku Klux Klan at their various antics, I don't see the CBF present. Rather, each chaptor of the Klan had their own flag, usually a white background with an imposing "iron cross" with klan knights on rearing horses, etc.

Conclusion: It looks to me like the whole deal is just a made-up thing to bitch about.

Set 'em right, Cecil.

[SuaSponte]

You forget a crucial historical fact -- For most of a century, the Stars and Bars were NOT flown on the Capitols of various and sundry southern states (or incorporated into state flags). They were, one by one, flown over the Capitols starting in the 1960's, in response to desegragation efforts and, in particular, the Civil Rights Act of 1964. So, while I agree with you that symbols are a tricky business (e.g. the hammer and sickle is a symbol of evil to us, but to Russians, it was the flag under which they defeated Hitler), in this case, the INTENDED symbolism is clear -- call it states rights or pure evil, but the southern states were protesting the federal repeal of their Jim Crow laws.

Sponte

[MrDeath]

So, while I agree with you that symbols are a tricky business (e.g. the hammer and sickle is a symbol of evil to us, but to Russians, it was the flag under which they defeated Hitler),

[hijack]
Funny that's the example you should use...the Swastika, or tetragammaton (sp?), was until quite recently a holy symbol used in many religions, but especially Hinduism. As late as 1948, after Gandhi was assassinated, his body (or shroud, I forget with) was adorned with holy swastikas. Of course, it's been so thoroughly hijacked now that it means exactly one thing.
[/hijack]

I know absolutely nothing about the history of the Confederate flag etc., being Canadian and never having ventured further south than Dayton, Ohio (well, okay, but Disney World isn't exactly the Deep South, is it?). Back to your regular thread.

[Wendell Wagner]

Huh? The tetragrammaton is the Hebrew letters transliterated as YHWH. It has nothing to do with the swastika. Incidentally, one of the cultures where the swastika is found is the American Indian. Hitler probably got the symbol from them, since Germans are big American Indian freaks.

[tomndebb]

The Rebel battle flag was added to the flag of Mississippi in the late 1800's. Arkansas has a flag with a battle flag motif (but not the flag) and Alabama has the Cross of St. Patrick that has the cross saltire shape, but not the color blue or the stars. Florida has Alabama's cross with the state seal centered on it. I do not know the dates that the last three states adopted their flags or whether there is actually a connection between the rebel flag and the crosses of Alabama and Florida.

The rebel flag was added to the Georgia flag in the 1950's. (Supporters claim that it was done to honor the upcoming celebration of the Civil War centennial, 1961-1965; opponents point to the fact that it happened just as Brown v Topeka Board of Education had begun inspiring acts of civil disobedience by blacks).

I'm not sure when the battle flag was first flown above the Carolina capital.

This is, generally, Great Debate fodder as the following links attest:

(The first one is actually informational.)
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...threadid=21759

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...threadid=22314

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...threadid=22379

The latter two are only the threads that focussed on the flag. We had a dozen or more that argued it in passing.

Unless someone has a truly origianl and brilliant thought on the issue, I suspect that raising the issue again will actually be a matter of raising hackles.

[Saint Zero]

During a recent legislative flap (Congress: opposite of progress) the supreme court had a chance on some miscellanious legal BS certain groups were using to slow down progress. (Like it needed help!) instead they came to this stunning ruling.

The current state flag was adopted in 1896 (or so). In 1906, the code of laws was updated and edited, with a charming clause which has changed the debate here 100%. Any law not explictly carried over was thrown out. One of the laws not carried over was the one authorizing the flag. So the Supreme Court rules that for 93 years, Mississippi has had no "Official" flag. Therefore, all the caterwauling about being offended/don't screw with my history was pointless.

The legislature thus stunned, the Governor has convened a commission to study what to do now, with a decision to be expected in Jan 2001. I'll keep ya'll informed.

[Boris B]

Here is a link to pictures of the various Confederate flag types:
http://wwwindex.rdg.ac.uk/AcaDepts/l...ral/Flags.html

I did a search because I couldn't remember what the Stars and Bars (as opposed to the Confederate Battle Flag) looked like. It includes the "stainless" flag, which is odd because I didn't even know high-chrome steel had been invented at that point.

[Odesio]

You forget a crucial historical fact -- For most of a century, the Stars and Bars were NOT flown on the Capitols of various and sundry southern states (or incorporated into state flags). They were, one by one, flown over the Capitols starting in the 1960's, in response to desegragation efforts and, in particular, the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

I used to be against trying to make people take certain Confederate flags down. But after learning that some of them were put up in response to the Civil Rights movement I now believe those should be taken down.

However there are a lot of buildings and monuments that honor Confederate leaders and soldiers built prior to the civil rights movment. I believe those should stay where they are. For example in the Dallas area there is a courthouse built in the 30's that includes a plaque honoring the soldiers who fought for the Confederacy. Some want it removed but I find no reason to do so.

Marc

[biopsycho]

The Confederate flag was placed on the SC state house for the civil war centennial also. It has just been voted to be taken down and moved to a civil war memorial. However, the NAACP doesn't like that idea either. I can understand that it doesn't belong on the state house, but I see no reason why it shouldn't be at the memorial. I think people are just asking for too much now. I personally am glad we lost the civil war, but there are plenty of people here who are proud that this state had the courage to secede, and there are plenty of people who died under that flag. We can't even say for certain that slavery would have been abolished if the confederate states had not seceded. The same people who are opposing the flag so violently may owe their freedom to it.

[Ceejaytee]

2) If Martin Luther King or Malcolm X had any complaints about it, I figure I would have heard the tapes played back to me by now.

I suspect you haven't heard MLK and Malcolm X complain about the CBF because they had bigger problems to deal with. What's a symbol of Southern white pride matter when your people can't vote, eat at lunch counters, drink from water fountains or sit in the front of the bus? Who cares about a piece of cloth when your people are being lynched? There are many black activists who think the NAACP should be doing more for the blacks in South Carolina living in poverty, crime and illiteracy and not wasting its time on symbolism. I agree--if you can't do both, do the more important thing.