So I’m getting a prescription filled the other day and I’m watching two pharmacists count pills. And I’m wondering, “Gee, couldn’t a tech do the same job?”
I mean no disrespect to pharmacists. I’m just askin’: Could a trained technician and a good database of chemical interactions get the same job done? What’s the point of a degree in pharmacy?
Mr. MercyStreet says the education harkens to the days when pharmacists actually concocted medicine.
For what it’s worth, I believe that pharmacists can actually prescribe medicine in some cases. (Caveat: this may no longer be true.)
Pharmacists are better trained at drug interactions than your own doctor! If you want to know something about dosages, interaction, substitutes, etc…ask your pharmacist!
The bigger question is: Why are pharmacists still taught about compounding? Compounding, from what I understand, is actually making a medicine from base ingredients. But, isn’t it all pre-packaged today, from pills or elixirs?
I don’t know, either. A year ago, I started seriously investigating a degree in pharmacy, but I found that I’d have to start from scratch. I have a college degree with a minor in chemistry, but I’d have to go for another five years to become a pharmacist. I’m not surprised there’s apparently a pharmacist shortage.
Pharmacists, not physicians, are experts on medication and drugs. A pharmacist is much more likely to know that a certain combination of drugs might be dangerous. In fact, when you pick up a prescription from a pharmacist, you’d be advised instead of just treating him or her as a pill counter to say – listen, I’m also taking such and such – is there anything I should know about combining these medications?
A pharmacist is also likely to be able to tell you about side effects and recommend alternatives.
They still do make some compounds themselves. My father has a couple patients who need custom-made medicines, so he routinely makes them himself.
Also, pharmacists need to be aware of a LOT of different things, aside from drug reactions. As I’ve posted before, my father manages a pharmacy for long-term-care residents, who tend to be either elderly or very ill and on numerous medications. He has to be not only mindful of interactions between drugs, but also the population. Elderly patients tend to react to medications differently than younger patients. So two drugs that might be fine for you or me can be bad in an older person. Also, some drugs require that regular labwork be done to ensure that no organ damage is happening. My father has to ensure that labwork is done when it needs to be done. He also makes recommendations about changing drugs or dosages if the blood levels are too high or if there is organ damage. Furthermore, he also has to make sure that the orders are current and correct.
There is a LOT that a pharmacist has to know.
Robin
Right. I understand a pharmacist is trained to know all these things. But I ask you: Could a trained tech use a computer program to reach the same conclusions?
I think the point is that the subject is too complex with too much fear of screw-ups to be left to a master database alone. And besides, with something this important, wouldn’t you want to talk to a trained professional than somebody with 6 months training and a PC.
We have my grandfather’s pharmacy diploma from the University of Kansas. It’s really cool, being a big scroll of real vellum (no doubt local KS produce) that announces, in ornate manuscript, that he has been awarded “The Degree Of Pharmaceutical Chemist” . This was in 1909, and he was only 19 at the time, so, either it didn’t used to take five years back then, or else he started REALLY young.
Maybe. But I’d prefer to deal with a human Pharmacist, rather than a techie who by law (probably) would be required to consult the computer for every little question we might ask. (We have pharmaceutical techies here in CT, but they seem to do only the minor chores.
I have almost unbounded respect for the pharmacists of my local drug store. They’re smart as hell, jovial and a pleasure to deal with. In the 30 years I’ve dealt at this place, they have made just one inconsequential error with my medications.
And if I’m not mistaken…
If a doctor prescribes a dosage of a medication that is inappropriate, and a pharmacist dispenses it as written by the MD, the pharmacist might be legally liable. So the pressure is on for them to stay alert all the time.
My dad is a pharmacist, back in the days (he got his in the 70s) you could get a bachelors in pharmacy. Now you need a 4 year doctorate degree and 2-4 years of undergrad work. So they made pharmacy education longer starting in the 90s, probably to compensate for all the extra drugs that have hit the market.
Back in 1909 there weren’t many prescription & OTC drugs im sure, and making them was easy. Thats probably why training was not as long as it is now. in todays market they want a doctorate devoted to pharmacy to keep up.
As far as the OP, Id trust a machine more than a pharmacist. Machines have perfect memories and people are more honest with a machine about things like drug/alcohol usage, drug dose, diet, etc.
I have no doubt that pharmicists are highly educated, and I’m glad they are. It’s an important job. I saw what almost happened to old Mr. Gower if that nice George Bailey hadn’t said something! Nevertheless, my question is–
Why can you get a doctorate without even finishing a batchelor’s degree?? I mean sure, most jobs you do with a grad degree doon’t really require a working knowledge of Music Appreciation or Geology for the Non-Science Major, but a BA is just a basic assurance that the person you’re taking into higher ed isn’t too much of a screw up and has some track record at accademics over multiple years. Why accept people into a presumambly demanding field like pharm with barely two years of basic science for a doctoral degree? Is it just a shortage? Is Pharm School soooo demanding that it would take five years anyway, and no one wants to do that after a Bachelor’s? And why is it a doctorate, anyway, when its an entry-level degree? How long has it been a PhamD, and what was it before?
Again, I’m not knocking phamacists’ education, it just seems like an odd way of running things.
I must have simulposted with Wesley Clark. Didn’t notice on preview. (Didn’t notice the typos either!) He almost answered some of my questions, but didn’t fully answer any of my questions, so they still stand.
That’s absolutely true, but if I want to become a pharmacist, not only would I have to study about medicines and anatomy, I’d have to take a couple years of calculus.
I have a BA, double major, plus a minor in Chemistry. I’ve got the “well-rounded education” thing already, granted in liberal arts, but still.
So, what is it about calculus or physics that are necessary to a pharmacist? That’s where I get baffled. I can’t really afford to spend five years at this point in my life to get a degree in a job that pays as poorly as pharmacy, no matter how interested I may be in the field. But that’s what I would have to do if I started now.
And, in the end, I really like my local pharmacist, but I don’t trust him over his computer.
Zoinks! :eek:
A computer is only as good as the PC jock who programs the software. A Pharmacist can out-think any computer when it comes to things you will want or need to know. A PC will only give you back an answer to your exact query. I’d rather keep my health matters in the hands of a humanoid. - Jinx
These are good answers. I imagine that a pharmacists’ job is like so many others: a good deal of tedium coupled with crucial moments that demand a high degree of knowledge.
Here’s another question. You know how recipes for home-based remedies suggest you buy ingredients from your pharmacist? “Your local druggist should be able to order tincture of guacamole, eye of mugwump, and elixir of yawn.” … Do pharmacists actually handle these requests?
I’m making an assumption here - bear with me…
At the University I work at, our medical school will accept undergrads with only two completed years of a degree. However, in order to even be considered with only two years, the applicant will have a 4.0GPA over the two years, and have taken something like “Ultra-Hard Biochemistry for Geniuses” as their options, as well as scoring 15’s on their MCATs. (Typically, the people accepted have an undergrad degree in something like biochemistry or anatomy. )
Obviously, a student like this has proven that they’re no slouch and probably have enough smarts to do pretty well in med school - I’m guessing that pharmacy schools are similar.
Secondly, I believe in the US (not Canada) there’s such a thing as a “Practical Medical Assistant” or “Physician Assistant” or some such that assists actual MDs - in theory this sort of person has the rudamentary knowledge to treat a wide variety of medical problems, but I still want to see my MD when push comes to shove. In the case of medications, which can react to anything - some MAO’s can interact with grapefruit juice fer cryin’ out loud! - I want the person despensing them to have more education and knowledge, rather than less.
Basically, you need the calculus to have a deeper understanding of the physics, and you need the physics to have a deeper understanding of the chemistry. You need to be exposed to the finer points of math and science to have a complete understanding. You need to understand mathematical relationships, related rates, and such…all of which model how chemicals interact, for one. For example, a big part of drug chemistry is titrations. Calculus opens your mind to
start one thinking like a scientist. Understanding relationships and how to interpret data is fundamental to grasping scientific concepts, in general.
Speaking as the mother of a Pre-Pharmacy student, who is finishing up her second year of Pre-Pharm in junior college, and who still has four more years to go of “regular” pharmacist training at SIU, what I’m seeing as the need for the many years of training is explained by the need for the State of Illinois to weed out the losers, the incompetents, the drug addicts who think they see an easy source, the incipient drug dealers who think they see a business opportunity, the lazy pill-roller wannabes who think they see a soft life earning $80,000 a year lounging around the back of Walgreen’s handing out pills. The sort of people who can stick the six years of training are by definition not going to be the losers, the incompetents, or the lazy pill-roller wannabes, and it’s not likely that drug addicts or dealers would be willing to sit through six years of college, including a LOT of very serious math and science, just for access to a source.
Graduation requirements.
[ul]
[li]One semester of calculus. And before she could even begin to approach this, she had to have taken algebra, geometry, and trigonometry in high school. They weren’t prerequisites as such–there was an aptitude test given by the junior college, and theoretically some math genius who had never studied math a day in his life could have taken the test and been admitted to the Calculus class. BTW, it took her two tries to pass this, and she’s no slouch at math.[/li]
[li]One year of “intermediate” or “advanced” chemistry. IOW, this isn’t your typical high school “let’s fool around with test tubes during 6th hour” chemistry class.[/li]
[li]One year of Organic Chemistry. Again, serious stuff.[/li]
[li]One year of Human Anatomy and Physiology. The final exam for this involves being able to identify, from memory, all the nerve, muscle, circulatory, organ, and skeletal body parts.[/li]
[li]One year of Physics.[/li]
[li]One year of Biology. This includes dissecting cats and/or fetal pigs.[/li]
[li]Two semesters of English, one of speech.[/li]
[li]Plus 9-12 credit hours of electives, such as Psychology, Economics, or other humanities.[/li][/ul]
So anybody who can carry this load deserves to be awarded a pharmacist’s license.
She is currently working at Walgreen’s as what’s called a Pharmacy Tech, which is not only a useful source of income but is also very good on-the-job training. There are people whose whole career is Pharmacy Tech, but you don’t need much training for that, since all you’re doing is counting pills according to instructions, answering the phone, and running the cash register.
I asked her how she would respond to the OP’s question.
She also says (paraphrasing) that just last night a customer wanted to know about using Ester-C (which is an herbal/vitamin preparation) if you had “stomach trouble”, and she said the pharmacist was very knowledgeable and asked her things like, “What kind of stomach trouble?” and “What other kinds of medications are you on?” and was able to give her some advice.