Political Compass #23: An eye for an eye.

Many political debates here have included references to The Political Compass, which uses a set of 61 questions to assess one’s political orientation in terms of economic left/right and social libertarianism/authoritarianism (rather like the “Libertarian diamond” popular in the US).

And so, every so often I will begin a thread in which the premise for debate is one of the 61 questions. I will give which answer I chose and provide my justification and reasoning. Others are, of course, invited to do the same including those who wish to “question the question”, as it were.

It would also be useful when posting in these threads to give your own “compass reading” in your first post, by convention giving the Economic value first. My own is
SentientMeat: Economic: -5.12, Social: -7.28, and so by the above convention my co-ordinates are (-5.12, -7.28). Please also indicate which option you ticked. I might suggest what I think is the “weighting” given to the various answers in terms of calculating the final orientation, but seeing for yourself what kind of answers are given by those with a certain score might be more useful than second-guessing the test’s scoring system.

Now, I appreciate that there is often dissent regarding whether the assessment the test provides is valid, notably by US conservative posters, either because it is “left-biased” (??) or because some propositions are clearly slanted, ambiguous or self-contradictory. The site itself provides answers to these and other Frequently Asked Questions, and there is also a separate thread: Does The Political Compass give an accurate reading? Read these first and then, if you have an objection to the test in general, please post it there. If your objection is solely to the proposition in hand, post here. If your objection is to other propositions, please wait until I open a thread on them.

The above will be pasted in every new thread in order to introduce it properly, and I’ll try to let each one exhaust itself of useful input before starting the next. Without wanting to “hog the idea”, I would be grateful if others could refrain from starting similar threads. To date, the threads are:
Does The Political Compass give an accurate reading?
Political Compass #1: Globalisation, Humanity and OmniCorp.
#2: My country, right or wrong
#3: Pride in one’s country is foolish.
#4: Superior racial qualities.
#5: My enemy’s enemy is my friend.
#6: Justifying illegal military action.
#7: “Info-tainment” is a worrying trend.
#8: Class division vs. international division. (+ SentientMeat’s economic worldview)
#9: Inflation vs. unemployment.
#10: Corporate respect of the environment.
#11: From each according to his ability, to each according to need.
#12: Sad reflections in branded drinking water.
#13: Land should not be bought and sold.
#14: Many personal fortunes contribute nothing to society.
#15: Protectionism is sometimes necessary in trade.
#16: Shareholder profit is a company’s only responsibility.
#17: The rich are too highly taxed.
#18: Better healthcare for those who can pay for it.
#19: Penalising businesses which mislead the public.
#20: The freer the market, the freer the people.
#21: Abortion should be illegal.
#22: All authority must be questioned.

Proposition #23: An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

…makes the whole world ugly and blind. SentientMeat (-5.12, -7.28) ticks Strongly Disagree.
Civilisation has long since recognised that actual physical punishment belongs to the Middle Ages. More specifically, it has recognised that time, money or liberty are the only things that may legitimately be taken from an individual no matter what their crime. The very worst punishment which most industrialised democracies can sanction in good conscience is lifelong deprivation of liberty: those whose actions cause suffering or damage to society, no matter how barbaric, must simply be removed from society, perhaps for ever. They may still contribute via their labour, creative output or as a valuable subject for research into the human mind, but they may not interact with the outside world in any way which risks them repeating their crime.

“But what of the victims?” goes the standard cry. “Having been brutally deprived of an eye, tooth or loved one’s life, are they not entitled to want the same done to those responsible?”
Of course they are entitled to feel these visceral, all-too-human emotions. But whether such a destructive thirst for vengeance, understandable though it may be, should motivate the actions of a civilised state government is another matter entirely. I feel that revenge is neither a valid moral basis for state action, nor an effective deterrent. Once my passionate rage had subsided, I would hope that I could see the wisdom of government not encouraging those feelings I naturally fell prey to, whilst still doing its utmost to deter and prevent future crimes via alternative punishments.

And so, the judiciary attempts to match the severity of the crime with the severity of the punishment, but not the nature of the crime with that of the punishment. I believe that in all cases that severity can be matched solely by deprivation of liberty. To attempt to match the nature of the crime would be to fall prey to medieval sadism in the name of justice.

+7/-3

Disagree.

I think SM summed things up pretty well on this subject. I don’t really have anything to add.

-4,-4 (ish)

Disagree.

An eye for an eye can result in a positive feedback loop, that is if I take your eye, then you take mine, I then take your other eye and an ear for good measure.

I don’t belive any good can come from this morality.

And of course the Biblical rebuttal.

Economic Left/Right: 0.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.87

(And you people don’t believe me when I say I’m a moderate. HAH! Although, after you read what follows you may not believe me anyway…)

I am 100% for an eye for an eye. A murderer deserves no comforts, no security, no protection. He has washed his hands of everything that society has to offer by killing a member of it. Fry the bastard. I don’t want to be a party to his sustained existence. He is not worthy to eat the food provided him with my tax dollars. He isn’t even worthy of a syringe of drugs I paid for for the purpose of his execution. I will, however, pay for the rope. Trees are free, and the rope can be reused.

Needless to say, I have a very strong opinion about this.

What about crimes other than murder? If someone steals a car, should he have to give the victim his car as compensation?

I also have strong feelings, however I’ll try and keep them under control :wink:

The first argument I usually wheel out is the false conviction one, but as this is a purely moral debate, I’m going to put it to one side for now. Even though it’s a very strong argument.

The primary thrust against the ‘eye for an eye’ argument, it that it reduces you to the level of the killer (you mentioned murder above) how can you justify taking the same action against another human being, while at the same time condemning that action?
Murder is wrong. Now I’m going to murder you.

Does that action of killing give me the right to murder you?

Now I imagine the argument for ‘an eye for an eye’ is that killing a murder doesn’t count, because it’s removing a threat to society. Do most murderers reoffend? What about people who kill in a moment of passion? A man finds out his daughter has been sexually assaulted, and murders the assaulter*. Does the father deserve to die?

Where do you draw the line?
-G

Economic Left/Right: -4.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.28

Yup, I’m about as pinko as they come. Not that it comes as a huge surprise.

That said, I don’t think “an eye for an eye” is a valid punishment. In the US, we have a civil justice system that provides for restitution for one’s misdeeds. Peacefully. If you can prove a wrong was committed, well, don’t take the person’s life, take his property. I realize that monetary restitution isn’t as satisfying as taking a life, but it’s something.

Robin

Quite simply, yes. If you are wronged, the restitution should be similar if not identical is scope and magnitude.

Strongly disagree. If we followed this proposition, we’d all be blind and toothless. Incarceration of varying degrees depending on the severity of the crime and economic recompense when feasible is all that society should take from someone.

-3.5/-2.5 or thereabouts (I can’t recall exactly) Disagree

So Airman Doors If you accidentally kill my 3 year old niece with your car when she darts out in front of it should the state kill you or should it your niece?

Responding to an act of extreme violence is not escalation. It is retribution. Once the affair has been settled it should be over. If someone in my family killed someone willfully, I would not beg for clemency on their behalf. It goes against every principle I have to defend killers, no matter what the circumstance is.

For instance, if someone were to kill my son, I would seek revenge. Upon having my revenge I would submit myself to the police for whatever punishment was due me. That is the extent of my principles.

I’m a very Old Testament law-and-order sort of guy.

I doubt that. The Old Testament is full of punishments that I’m sure you wouldn’t agree with (eg, stoning for adultry). You may be a law-and-order guy, but I believe you are over-extrapolating your agreement with Old Testament legal practices based on just one item with which you happen to agree.

You’re right. I meant it in the respect that I advocate very harsh punishments in most respects, but for things like adultery I’m willing to look the other way.

My score:Economic Left/Right: -6.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.46

I’m against “an eye for an eye.” As an example, a murderer has, I agree, forfeited personal rights to a place in society. However, that doesn’t automatically mean those rights can’t be regained.

I understand the emotions that can make a person want to see somebody executed. I also think we, as a society, need to move beyond those emotions and not take it upon ourselves to make that sort of judgement. As an atheist, I don’t believe in heaven or hell. When we’re dead, we’re dead. If a person is executed that person is beyond both punishment and redemption. I think it’s a more just punishment (and also a potential time for rehabilitation) to deny somebody a place in society while having to live with their crime, and pay for it.

By the way, I’m also a situationist. I recognize that absolute laws are difficult and situations can occur in which we may need to take a different approach.

OK. So let’s go back to the examples in the title. Let’s say that someon is guilty of poking out another person’s eye. Let’s say that they did it on purpose. Would you propose that the US legal code be modified so that the guilty guy would have one of his eyes poked out as part of his punishment? I’m not talking about what you might want to do personally to someone who assaulted your son, but what you think the legal code of this country out to be.

While I strongly disagree with your position Airman, I admire that your morality is consistent. Unfortunately I don’t have time to post a detailed reply right now.

A quick question, you mentioned the Old Testament, are you a Christian? (I consider myself to be a Zen Buddhist)

Strongly agree, though I admit I don’t take “eye for an eye” as literally as you do. The basic tenant of an eye for an eye is that the punishment must fit the crime. You don’t cut someone’s hand off for stealing a loaf of bread and you don’t hang a person for knocking someone’s tooth out. An eye for an eye is the basic foundation of the western justice system. If the punishment does not fit the crime then there can be no justice.

You didn’t seriously expect anyone to say that it’d be a good idea to set of a mideval torture chamber to punish criminals, did you?

Marc

What difference does my opinion of the legal code of the United States make? This was a question about my Political beliefs, not reality.

I just wanted to point out for the record, that Jewsh tradition has never interpreted “eye for an eye” literally, but rather that it refers to monetary compensation. The scriptural indications of the monetary interpretation are discussed in the Talmud.

You lost me. Aren’t your political beliefs the basis for how you would craft political/governmental institutions? In what sense do you divorce your political beliefs from reality?