With all the crosses and cross images in the Arlington National Cemetery, why didn’t the ACLU sue to have these removed first?
The ACLU is not a monolithic entity that acts in concert in all things. It appears that one chapter in or near Los Angeles has decided to take umbrage at the L.A. seal, while the majority of the ACLU chapters have no such compulsions.
For example, two Northern Ohio communities have, in the last few years, incorporated religious images on their seals and have met different responses from the ACLU. Stow, OH deliberately added a bible to their seal, explicitrly claiming that they were “under God.” The ACLU went to court to have it removed. Shortly thereafter, some agency (fire department?) in Chesterland, OH created a new seal that incorporated the image of a church. The church was chosen because it is a historical landmark and the ACLU stated that they had no problem with historical images (despite an attempt by a few loud Chesterland residents who “dared” the ACLU to sue). The symbols were different and chosen for different reasons and the (local chapters of the) ACLU made different assessments of the separation of church and state.
Given that the stated symbolism in LA. is historical, I find that chapter of the ACLU to be behaving stupidly, but setting up strawmen in regards to cemetaries (where the headstones reflect the beliefs of those interred, not the beliefs of the government) is equally silly.
So you think those crosses in any cemetary represent government?
This is silly.
It’s worth pointing out that despite what Dick Cheney claimed to have seen from his helicopter in his speech several years ago, the headstones at Arlington are not cross-shaped, but are actually rounded rectangles. The people buried there can choose from a list of approved symbols to have placed on their stone, but there are not, as Cheney claimed, “row upon row of crosses”. (Al Franken discusses this at length in his book.)
In this case, the gravestone is an individual’s expression, not the government’s. Individuals can express a religious preference–we guarantee that right. The government, on the other hand, cannot.
The fields of Crosses and Stars of David, I believe, are in Europe. My grandfather was recently buried in Arlington. I never realized how close it is to the Pentagon until I went there for the funeral.
Er, internment. I always get those terms mixed up.
By “with all the crosses and cross image”, I think the OP meant things like this.
Saying that there are NO Christian symbols in Arlington is stupid (Chaplain Hill?), but I don’t think anyone (even the ACLU) is going to try to make anyone start tearing down national monuments to dead war heroes.
‘Silly’ does spring to mind.
If you read the OP, you will note they are asking why the ACLU doesn’t go after the crosses displayed in Arlington National Cemetary. You know, government property. Not ‘all crosses in any cemetary’.
Eventually, of course, the ACLU will go after Arlington. It’s in their nature to be the biggest assholes possible.
I’m glad someone has the balls to stand up for stuff, instead of calling them names on message boards.
All brother Brutus knows how to do is call names.
And that’s sad.
I agree fully with the above post. I think highly of the ACLU.
10$ says that the ACLU would consider those crosses to be adornments of headstones of private individuals chosen by them, in exactly the same way they consider Bible verses to be the statements of private individuals expressing themselves in a yearbook.
http://www.freep.com/news/education/utica12_20040512.htm
i.e., the principle would be that if the government is creating an open fora for private individuals to speak instead of speaking itself, and if that fora isn’t mandatory for anyone to have to listen to, look at, or attend, then it’s fine and dandy if they want to express their religious convictions.
Note also that the ACLU represents people that make actual complaints and actually want legislation: they don’t genearlly just run around filing lawsuits for the hell of it.
As tomndebb said, the ACLU is not a monolithic entity. On occasion, it has defended church rights, but it has also gone way overboard in removing references to religion from public eyes. This whole L.A. seal debacle is one such example.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the did go after the crosses in Arlington, but I wouldn’t count on it either – especially after the backlash from this L.A. controversy.
Ya. It takes great big balls of brass to stand up to Bumfuck, Ohio. It takes courage beyond measure for a group of lawyers to tear around and drain the coffers of cities and towns with their endless legal sniping. Lord knows that once LA is forced to remove the cross from their seal, we will all be living in a better world.
Or: :rolleyes:
And Reeder, you seem to have trouble focusing at times. Once you read the OP, and understand that the question was about crosses displayed on public property, chime in.
It takes big balls to be constantly defending civil liberties, no matter what the threat. Without many of the ACLU cases, there wouldn’t be legal standing for decisions to be made.
And one day, they might just do something for your greedy ass. Never know.
In a cemetary. Are you now comparing a cemetary to courthouses and schools?
You are hopeless.
:rolleyes:
Please, people. Cemetery.
Wow, the atheist symbol is cool. That’s the kind of thing Doctor Manhattan had on his forehead.