Earlier today, TubaDiva (in her capacity as poster and not as an administrator) started a thread asking the New York City dopers to helpMonkeyMule, who went to England and is planning to return to New York, but does not have employment or lodging.
In response, I posted:
Other New York posters gave additional background on the circumstances of his being in England, and opined that his own poor judgment was the reason he was now in need of assistance. In post # 16, Cajun Man, as moderator, said:
With respect, I do not believe that I or any of the other posters prior to Cajun Man’s post (or subsequent to it, for that matter) have broken the rules of MPSIMS.
I, for one, posted what I did because I thought that it was relevant to the thread to inform other posters as to the factual background of why I was disinclined to assist MonkeyMule. I can’t speak for others, but I believe that their posts were appropriate comments on the request for assistance. They were all directed at and characterized the factual background of the situation, and I don’t think any of them could be fairly described as “bitching.”
My request for clarification is the following: When there is a request for assistance in MPSIMS, what may posters properly respond, and which, if any, of the posts prior to Cajun Man’s initial comment were improper?
With respect, I believe that you and other posters prior to Cajun Man’s post have broken rules of the Straight Dope Message Board; namely, “Don’t be a Jerk”.
If you don’t want to help him, fine. Leave the thread and go play outside. “Burn me once, shame on me; burn me twice, shame on you” is a valid argument. But please note that it is not “Burn me once, shame on anyone else who even thinks about getting near you”.
The behavior by you and others in that thread are absolutely embarrassing to this message board. Kicking a man while he’s down is utterly disgraceful, and jerkish to the extreme. Honestly, you should fucking be ashamed of yourself.
How about the poster in question? I have never met him, but aparently he mightily offended a whole bunch of dopers, including several that I know to be extremely charitable. Should he be ashamed of himself, or is he untouchable because he’s in a tough spot?
I did not see anyone “kicking a man while he’s down”. There was a very public request from help for a “Doper” by an admin. I think it’s everyone’s right to know exactly what the circumstances and nature this person has as they are the ones being asked to help. This is a very generous community and it’s not out of the realm of possibility that MonkeyMule would have offers of cash and/or a place to stay. I don’t see anything jerkish in someone else stating that they have in the past offered their generosity to, and been taken advantage of by, this very person that an admin is now asking for help for.
I for one see nothing posted in that thread that even comes close to breaking the oh-so-clear ‘don’t be a jerk’ rule.
Considering the thread from last November, whether we as individuals like to admit it or not; everyone includes personal prejudices and life experiences in their postings.
Actually, I think that should be “Burn me once, shame on you; burn me twice, shame on me.”
And my personal opinion is that no one is kicking MM while he’s down in the other thread. They mainly seem to be warning other people that 1)offering charity might not be the best way to help MM and 2)if they do offer charity, they might get shit on in the process.
Though sometimes people are hit with extraordinary circumstances that is no fault of their own, oftentimes when people get into trouble there is an element of “their own poor judgment” involved. Just because someone made a stupid mistake (or even a series of them) doesn’t disentitle them from compassion and assistance (especially when it’s not even them, themselves, who is asking for it).
I can understand that you were angered by how he treated you and therefore have no intention of freely offering anything to him in the future. I might feel exactly as you do if it had been me whose generosity he took advantage of in a past encounter. However, when I read your post in that thread, my immediate gut reaction was one of shock and disgust that you would directly disparage a fellow poster so nastily and so publicly based on your one bad experience. Had your true intention been to let Tuba Diva know that she may not have been in full possession of the facts and that perhaps her plea for assistance was misguided, you had the option of emailing her privately to discuss it and suggest that she might consider closing the thread until further review of the circumstances. Instead, you chose the low road and trashed someone because you were hurt by them in the past.
Sometimes people fuck up. Sometimes people change. Sometimes people grow up. Sometimes people are who they are and never change. Sometimes, once a mooch, always a mooch. I’m not sure you’re in a position to judge that about Monkey Mule, but you set the tone in that thread to turn it into something ugly, which, as a member of this community, I was really uncomfortable reading.
When I originally posted my Pit thread, I was very careful to leave out MonkeyMule’s name and the fact that it was a Doper gathering. At that time I thought that posting the thread without naming him would allow him to see it and realize that it was fair warning that the at least New York dopers were aware of his nature and would no longer permit him to abuse their generosity. My hope was that he would learn from it and go forth, with unsullied reputation, a less ignorant man.
Unfortunately, by not publicizing his role in the events, it appears to enabled him to take advantage of TubaDiva’s good nature, like he had ours. When she requested assistance on behalf of MonkeyMule, and he came in and endorsed the request, I thought it appropriate to link to my prior Pit thread because I thought that those who might be inclined to help him would be interested in knowing the facts that I had previously concealed for his benefit.
When I posted it, and until today, I had no intention of publically calling MonkeyMule out for being a taker and a mooch. However, when I saw him requesting assistance from the New York dopers he had prevously burned, I felt compelled to.
The problem with this is the following. Let’s take a random theoretical non-clued-in-to-this-situation doper, who, reading the OP, might offer to help MM with lodgings or whatnot. And let’s say said random theoretical doper would be highly pissed to later discover that he was doing so for someone who behaved in a way he might find less than stellar. Leaving it up to Tuba to find some way of deleting/retracting/ignoring an email just does not seem like the best way to go in the interest of dopers at large. And fyi, my very first impulse was to email Tuba.
General announcement which I’ll repeat one last time and then hope I at least have been spoken for: I do not mean to bash MM. I fully understand people empathizing with him, and even offering to help him, despite these posted personal experiences (which took place both late last year and then just barely two months ago with the England move). I just think the OP was incredibly deceptive as it stood, and I know that I, as a theoretical non-clued-in doper, would have very much liked to know about these personal experiences before offering help. Apparently unlike Munch, I do not have money to piss away on schmucks in the name of Altruism.
I agree with Pucette and Billdo (it’s that “I have to agree with people I’ve met” rule) to an extent but MPSIMS is the forum where we all are supposed to play nice no matter how it may grate on us and if Billdo had additional information he thought Tuba did not have I agree with Shayna that he should probably taken it to email first. Had Tuba agreed that the info changed the situation she could have quietly deleted the thread or added a caveat. Immediately going on a public attack, especially because MM had only mooched a burger and some beer, a fairly trivial crime, was probably premature.
I regret I cannot help him come home but as I am not a New Yorker I would be unable to take advantage of the partial ownership of his ass that a donation would confer. I would not be able to enjoy having a conversation that is only enjoyable in real life:
Pucette, I have had my own share of people taking advantage of my generosity, resulting in my desire never to help them again under any circumstances. I also know that just because they behaved that way towards me, doesn’t mean that they’d necessarily treat everyone in exactly that same manner, though I don’t discount that possibility, either. I am not suggesting that anyone who was hurt by MonkeyMule doesn’t have the right to feel that way. It just made me cringe when I read a post like that in that particular forum. I thought Cajun Man was right, and there was probably a better way to handle the situation than to bring the entire community into what amounts to a personal disagreement that occurred off the boards.
You could have saved us all a lot of trouble if you had mentioned his name in that original pit thread
This issue would most likely not have come up at all if he was named in that original pit thread, as I doubt that TubaDiva would have posted the MPSIMS thread in question (and even go so far as calling out to the NY Dopers for help) had she known that MonkeyMule had burned several of them at a past Doper gathering. Had the facts been known, I do not think that TubaDiva would have posted the MPSIMS thread, and as such I do not think that it was inappropriate for Billdo to make the comment he did in order to warn people about the charity case in question.
…and Billdo is requesting an explanation as to why you felt that way, a proper question for the BBQ Pit.
If you needed help–I’m talking needed a place to sleep, not needed a hand moving a sofa or something–and a friend made that fact known, and then someone else came along and published a list of the five worst things you’ve ever done (think about it) and suggested that made you unfit for people’s sympathy, then I think you’d see this situation differently.
Prick. Either help him out or shut the fuck up; he’s homeless and depressed right now, and that’s a lot bigger than your petty fucking bar tab.
I understand your point, Shayna. But I don’t really see what the alternative could have been. As I explained above, I do NOT think (given the generous nature of Dopers, yes, even (some might say especially) of NY Dopers) that an email to Tuba Diva would have worked at all.
I saw/see only 3 alternatives:
-Posting facts about MM that are obviously coming across to some of you as severely harsh and unnecessary pit-worthy character attacks (which is NOT the case)
-Not posting anything at all and emailing Tuba Diva which I predict would have made the situation take too long to resolve for some highly generous yet uninformed folk
-Posting a comment with a plea that people interested in knowing more about MM’s situation email us for info???
Apologies if I’ve missed the obvious solution here. And despite my all caps initial reaction of abject surprise and disbelief, I think myself and the “offended” NY dopers have kept things VERY civil and QUITE unpit-like. (And no, there is no “considering” at the end of that last sentence.)
I gathered his intention was to let everyone know of his past experience so that anyone who was considering helping him out would know of his experience and would therefore be equipped with more information for them to take under advisement and accept or disregard at their discretion.
If it’s posted publicly, seems right and proper to be addressed publicly, IMHO, but then, I don’t have a dog in this fight.
