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  #1  
Old 06-13-2004, 02:34 PM
MrTuffPaws MrTuffPaws is offline
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WMD shipped out of Iraq before and during the WAR!!!!!

From here:

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtri...reaking_1.html

Quote:
The United Nations has determined that Saddam Hussein shipped weapons of mass destruction components as well as medium-range ballistic missiles before, during and after the U.S.-led war against Iraq in 2003.
and

Quote:
He said the Iraqi facilities were dismantled and sent both to Europe and around the Middle East. at the rate of about 1,000 tons of metal a month. Destionations included Jordan, the Netherlands and Turkey. The Baghdad missile site contained a range of WMD and dual-use components, UN officials said. They included missile components, reactor vessel and fermenters – the latter required for the production of chemical and biological warheads.
So, they can’t spell “destination”, but Holy cow!!! I can't believe it!!!! The smoking gun!!!!! Well, maybe not....

From the same article:

Quote:
The briefing contained satellite photographs that demonstrated the speed with which Saddam dismantled his missile and WMD sites before and during the war. Council members were shown photographs of a ballistic missile site outside Baghdad in May 2003, and then saw a satellite image of the same location in February 2004, in which facilities had disappeared.
Pics from May 2003 and contrasting ones from Feb 2004? Wait, we owned Iraq during that time frame...... Not to mention that the components were shipped to Jordan, the Netherlands and Turkey, though Jordan is not our best pal, the other two are definitely our allies.

So, it seems like things that could have been used as WMD components are being scrapped and shipped out of the country for profit as scrap metal.

Fine and dandy, but one thing that really gets my goat is that the article, though it does not really seem to have much in the line of content, allows for a quick reader to assume that actual WMD were shipped out of the country before and during the war.

Over on other forums of conservative bent, this article is being used, by the ultracons and neocons, for two things: One, that Iraq did have WMD and Bush was right to invade and two: that the media is liberal because no one else is reporting it. Not to mention that we should pull out of the UN, again.

So, what pisses me off more, that media outlets write sloppy articles with lots of leeway for reader's assumptions, almost making the piece an OP, or that people take shoddy reports and wave them around as fact? I don't know.

But anyway, if any of you have more info about the above UN report or article, please feel free to share.
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  #2  
Old 06-13-2004, 02:52 PM
Revtim Revtim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTuffPaws
Over on other forums of conservative bent, this article is being used, by the ultracons and neocons, for two things: One, that Iraq did have WMD and Bush was right to invade and two: that the media is liberal because no one else is reporting it.
It seems an article like this pops up every few weeks or months, and the conservative blogs and whatever always blame the "liberal media" for not reporting it.

What I find amusing is that apparently these folks must think the liberal media bias goes all the way up to, and including, the White House. If neither Bush himself nor any of his mouthpieces report this, that's a hell of powerful liberal media conspiracy!
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  #3  
Old 06-13-2004, 03:03 PM
chula chula is offline
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The article claims that Saddam Hussein shipped weapons after the war against Iraq. Apparently their research relies on the work of fortune tellers.
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  #4  
Old 06-13-2004, 03:41 PM
Squink Squink is offline
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This story looks like a mutation of the al Samoud 2 missile story from earlier this week.
There was some controversy before the war as to whether these weapons violated UN resolutions, however Saddam agreed to destroy them anyway.
That process was ongoing when Bush invaded. Had the president had a little more patience, all of them would have been destroyed, and they wouldn't be showing up in scrapyards today.
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  #5  
Old 06-13-2004, 04:04 PM
Club 33 Club 33 is offline
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I don't know much about "World Tribune". I went to their site and the one thing that I noticed is that all of their stories state "Exclusive for World Tribute" at the end. Does anyone have any information as to if this is a reliable news organization?

Concerning the story, I find it interesting that the neocons would be celebrating this report. Even if it is correct, which I have high doubts about, and there were WMD, this story only proves that we failed to secure these weapons before they were shipped out and could have fallen into enemy hands.

That makes me feel safe.
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  #6  
Old 06-13-2004, 05:01 PM
Largo62 Largo62 is offline
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This site gives some specifics about the World Tribune, including a list of articles on what they really consider important. This site Gives the publisher's own view of its mission.

Not to say that a primarily spiritual group couldn't possibly get news unavailable to (or conspiratorially unpublished by) the likes of the Associated Press, Reuters and the various major newspapers' and networks' own correspondents. But I'll stick to the regular news channels. Even Fox is likely to be more reliable IMO. However, YMMV.
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  #7  
Old 06-13-2004, 05:07 PM
MrTuffPaws MrTuffPaws is offline
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Hmmmm....

Quote:
Soka Gakkai International (SGI)-USA is an American Buddhist association that promotes world peace and individual happiness based on the teachings of the Nichiren school of Mahayana Buddhism. Our members reflect a cross section of our diverse American society, representing a broad range of ethnic and social backgrounds
Are they trying to be the next Christian Science Monitor?
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  #8  
Old 06-13-2004, 06:05 PM
elucidator elucidator is online now
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So...the Buddhists, generally speaking, aren't pissed off at us. This is good.
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  #9  
Old 06-13-2004, 06:09 PM
friedo friedo is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTuffPaws
Hmmmm....



Are they trying to be the next Christian Science Monitor?
No, the Christian Science Monitor is a fairly well-respected publication.
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  #10  
Old 06-13-2004, 06:20 PM
samclem samclem is online now
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http://newyorker.com/talk/content/?0...a_talk_mcgrath

Aw, geez, guys. Don't you remember when we did this last year? Drudge, Limbaugh and others were fooled? by stories from the website(notice, it's NOT a newspaper). Read the New Yorker article for further insights on who's who.
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  #11  
Old 06-13-2004, 06:45 PM
Coldfire Coldfire is offline
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Oh yeah, Saddam's always been a good buddy of Queen Beatrix. We're stashing away 300 cruise missiles and 40,000 Kurds for him, until he gets out.

WTF????

Is ANYONE taking this shit seriously? I guess the average dumbass could be fooled into thinking that Jordan was a rogue state (even though it's not), and perhaps the dumbest of all wouldn't realise that Turkey is well on its way to become an EU-member, and would look mightily foolish stashing away Saddam's rockets.

But the Netherlands???? We've got 2,000 men in Iraq right now because our PM is Bush's fucking lapdog. Give me fucking break.

I expect better from the average Doper, MrTuffPaws. This article is complete shite.
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  #12  
Old 06-13-2004, 07:18 PM
Sam Stone Sam Stone is offline
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I don't think the claim is that these other countries helped Iraq hide WMD. But rather, that Iraq destroyed its WMD equipment, and mixed the remains in with other scrap metal destined for other countries.

This is beyond dispute. Here is the official UNMOVIC report. I quote:

Quote:
The Commission’s experts are conducting an investigation in parallel with the IAEA Iraq Nuclear Verification Office regarding the discovery of items from Iraq that are relevant to the mandates of UNMOVIC and IAEA at a scrapyard in the Netherlands. In particular, following a visit of IAEA to a scrapyard in Rotterdam to investigate increased radiation readings, it was discovered, through photographs taken at the time, that engines of SA-2 surface-to-air missiles were among the scrap (see figure below). They are the type of engines used in the Al Samoud 2 proscribed missile programme. In addition, a number of items and equipment that may also be relevant to the UNMOVIC mandate were seen among the scrap. The existence of missile engines originating in Iraq among scrap in Europe may affect the accounting of proscribed engines known to have been in Iraq’s possession in March 2003. Both IAEA and UNMOVIC have kept the Security Council informed of this matter.
So definitely missile engines were found that show Iraq was in violation of UN resolutions. Anything else?

Quote:
Company staff confirmed that other items made of stainless steel and other corrosion-resistant metal alloys bearing the inscription “Iraq” or “Baghdad” had been observed in shipments delivered from the Middle East since November 2003. A number of items were examined and sampled on-site by UNMOVIC experts with a portable metal analyser and were determined to be composed of inconel and titanium — both dual-use materials subject to monitoring. Photographs of other materials bearing Arabic script were taken.
So we also have undeclared materials that should have been subject to monitoring, but which apparently the UN was unaware that Iraq had. Anything else?

Quote:
In addition, the Commission is aware from comparative analysis of recent satellite imagery that a number of sites previously known to have contained equipment and materials subject to monitoring have been either cleaned out or destroyed. An example of such imagery is provided in the appendix to the present report. It is not known whether such equipment and materials were still present at the sites during the time of coalition action in March and April of 2003. However, it is possible that some of the materials may have been removed from Iraq by looters of sites and sold as scrap.
This section suggests that suspected WMD sites may have been looted and the equipment dismantled and sold before the U.S. could find them. But it's hard to tell exactly.

Anyway, it's an interesting document.
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  #13  
Old 06-13-2004, 08:05 PM
rjung rjung is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldfire
Is ANYONE taking this shit seriously?
Desperate Bush-lovin' Republicans, it seems like.
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  #14  
Old 06-13-2004, 09:23 PM
MrTuffPaws MrTuffPaws is offline
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Coldfire:

Quote:
I expect better from the average Doper, MrTuffPaws. This article is complete shite.
???

I called bullshit first, and I am better than average
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  #15  
Old 06-13-2004, 10:48 PM
jovan jovan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTuffPaws
Hmmmm....
Quote:
Soka Gakkai International (SGI)-USA is an American Buddhist association that promotes world peace and individual happiness based on the teachings of the Nichiren school of Mahayana Buddhism. Our members reflect a cross section of our diverse American society, representing a broad range of ethnic and social backgrounds
Are they trying to be the next Christian Science Monitor?
It should be worth mentioning that the Soka Gakkai is a less reputable organisation from a Wiki article:
Quote:
Soka Gakkai is closely affiliated with the New Clean Government Party, a major Japanese political party. More controversially, Soka Gakkai has been identified as a cult or cult-like group by some critics because of its purported emphasis on recruitment, fundraising, demonizing perceived opponents, phobia indoctrination and peer pressure.

(snip, snip)

A disciple of Second Soka Gakkai President Toda, Mr. Ikeda succeeded him in 1960 as Soka Gakkai President. He became SGI President in 1975. Founder of Soka University and the Soka School System, Mr. Ikeda is the author of numerous books and has held dialogues toward peace, education and culture with numerous scholars and world leaders. He is however a controversial figure in his home country of Japan.
That's an understatement.

I believe they've been designated as a cult in France. Seriously, under their veneer of peace'n love, they're scary people.
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  #16  
Old 06-13-2004, 10:50 PM
jovan jovan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jovan
It should be worth mentioning that the Soka Gakkai is a less reputable organisation
Dammit, that should read:

It should be worth mentioning that the Soka Gakkai is a less than reputable organisation.
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  #17  
Old 06-13-2004, 11:02 PM
Marley23 Marley23 is offline
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Somebody tried to pass this off as a serious story on another website I frequent. It was about the least challenging article to rip to shreds...

What's really fun is to compare the World Tribune rightwing crapaganda with the same story in the New York Times. Note the lack of references to Saddam or the claim that the Iraqi government shipped anything anywhere (as that article mentions, the Times did a piece about this last month and they actually spoke to some of the people who are coming into Iraq from other countries and stealing this metal to sell it elsewhere), or the claim that what was shipped were WMD, since they weren't. What a crock.
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  #18  
Old 06-13-2004, 11:15 PM
Miller Miller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldfire
Oh yeah, Saddam's always been a good buddy of Queen Beatrix. We're stashing away 300 cruise missiles and 40,000 Kurds for him, until he gets out.

WTF????

Is ANYONE taking this shit seriously? I guess the average dumbass could be fooled into thinking that Jordan was a rogue state (even though it's not), and perhaps the dumbest of all wouldn't realise that Turkey is well on its way to become an EU-member, and would look mightily foolish stashing away Saddam's rockets.

But the Netherlands???? We've got 2,000 men in Iraq right now because our PM is Bush's fucking lapdog. Give me fucking break.

I expect better from the average Doper, MrTuffPaws. This article is complete shite.
I can only assume they hope to dupe dimwitted readers into believing Saddam has sold WMDs to the Netherworld, so that they can then accuse anyone who doesn't like Bush of not only supporting terrorists, but Satan himself.
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  #19  
Old 06-13-2004, 11:56 PM
MEBuckner MEBuckner is online now
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Aw, c'mon, Coldfire. We all know you Dutch boys got legalized dope and hookers over there, and if that don't make you part of the Axis of Evil, what would?
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  #20  
Old 06-14-2004, 05:14 AM
RTFirefly RTFirefly is offline
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For some reason, conspiracy theorists periodically include Queen Beatrix as one of their alleged secret manipulators of current events. Don't ask me why.

The NYT story isn't the first time stories have appeared in the news about weapons-related stuff getting smuggled out of Iraq during the US occupation. Apparently we have met the enemy, and he is us.

Of course, that's been true in all sorts of ways lately.
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  #21  
Old 06-14-2004, 06:13 AM
Neidhart Neidhart is online now
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They're probably confusing her with Beatrix Potter.

"Bunnies! It must be bunnies!!"

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  #22  
Old 06-14-2004, 06:36 AM
minty green minty green is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marley23
What's really fun is to compare the World Tribune rightwing crapaganda with the same story in the New York Times.
Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

And actually, the scrap metal looting is in no way confined to Saddam's former weapons programs. I recall another recent news story (though I can't remember where I read it--CNN, maybe?) that poked around one of the scrapyards in Jordan and found all kinds of apparently functional machinery from Iraqi oil facilities, including a lot of very valuable stuff.
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  #23  
Old 06-14-2004, 07:14 AM
C K Dexter Haven C K Dexter Haven is online now
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Wait until they spread the stories that Saddam actually has an invisibility ray that he used to make the WMD invisible. And thus, beware, invisible Iraqi terrorists could be hiding under YOUR bed, too!
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  #24  
Old 06-14-2004, 07:19 AM
Jonathan Chance Jonathan Chance is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RTFirefly
For some reason, conspiracy theorists periodically include Queen Beatrix as one of their alleged secret manipulators of current events. Don't ask me why.
You fool! No one expects the Dutch Inquisition!
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  #25  
Old 06-14-2004, 07:34 AM
Spavined Gelding Spavined Gelding is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neidhart
They're probably confusing her with Beatrix Potter.

"Bunnies! It must be bunnies!!"

No, not bunnies. It's Mr. Toad. "No teeth, no teeth."
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  #26  
Old 06-14-2004, 10:13 AM
PatriotX PatriotX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chula
The article claims that Saddam Hussein shipped weapons after the war against Iraq. Apparently their research relies on the work of fortune tellers.
Actually, they said "weapons of mass destruction components"

When a "program activity" means that some scientists suspected other scientists of thinking about making plans, I'd hesitate to guess what exactly a 'component' is.



Gotta love this part:

"The briefing contained satellite photographs that demonstrated the speed with which Saddam dismantled his missile and WMD sites before and during the war. Council members were shown photographs of a ballistic missile site outside Baghdad in May 2003, and then saw a satellite image of the same location in February 2004, in which facilities had disappeared."

Somehow, since the American Occupation began these sites that should've been heavily guarded have been looted.


This kind of points out the extreme folly of the GWB Admin's pre-war planning for the post-war period.

I've made this same point myself many times.

The article is right on. It doesn't represent good news for the Bush Admin though. It has recorded another example of their mendacity or incompetence.

The invasion of Iraq has made it even more likely that terrorists will get their hands on the WMD 'components' that Hussein had.
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  #27  
Old 06-14-2004, 10:15 AM
PatriotX PatriotX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonX
This kind of points out the extreme folly of the GWB Admin's pre-war planning for the post-war period.

I've made this same point myself many times.

The article is right on. It doesn't represent good news for the Bush Admin though. It has recorded another example of their mendacity or incompetence.

The invasion of Iraq has made it even more likely that terrorists will get their hands on the WMD 'components' that Hussein had.
This is prob'ly why the GWB Admin hasn't trumpeted this article.
hopefully, MrTuffPaws will be back to explain the intended impact of this story.
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  #28  
Old 06-14-2004, 10:48 AM
MrTuffPaws MrTuffPaws is offline
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Quoting your self SimonX? Strange

Anyway, my intended impact of this story was:

Quote:
What pisses me off more, that media outlets write sloppy articles with lots of leeway for reader's assumptions, almost making the piece an OP, or that people take shoddy reports and wave them around as fact? I don't know.
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  #29  
Old 06-14-2004, 11:18 AM
elucidator elucidator is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C K Dexter Haven
Wait until they spread the stories that Saddam actually has an invisibility ray that he used to make the WMD invisible. And thus, beware, invisible Iraqi terrorists could be hiding under YOUR bed, too!
They did exactly that, and it worked perfectly. The good news was that the UN inspectors couldn't find them. The bad news was neither could they.
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  #30  
Old 06-14-2004, 02:15 PM
PatriotX PatriotX is offline
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Rush said he wasn't sure why no one was making a big deal about this World Tribune Report. As I had a minute...

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:11:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: "SimonX"
Subject: Why No One's Making A Big Deal About the World Tribune Report
To: "Rush Limbaugh" <rush@eibnet.com>



Dear Mr. Limbaugh,

Because the report makes the Bush Admin look bad.
Publicizing the report would highlight the fact these weapons of mass destruction components were taken out of Iraq on the US's watch. Highlighting this would highlight some shortcomings of the Bush Admin's foreign policy venture in Iraq.

The report reveals the shoddy pre-war planning for the post-war period in Iraq. Some of the evidence for the shipments of the "weapons of mass destruction components" comes from satellite images taken starting in May 2003 when the US assumed responsibility of these weapons of mass destruction components.

That these weapons of mass destruction components could be taken out of country shows that there was insufficient security for these weapons of mass destruction components.

It was the US's responsibility to provide this security for these weapons of mass destruction components. Poor pre-war planning prevented the military from being able to provide adequate security for the weapons of mass destruction components we went over there to secure.

And that's why.

Sincerely,

Simon W. Moon ksc
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  #31  
Old 06-15-2004, 09:44 AM
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I bet Queen Beatrix needed the WMDs to get rid of her daughter in-law's father. I bet she kept them under her hat. Maybe under her hair. [which is the same, actually]
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  #32  
Old 06-15-2004, 10:06 AM
RickJay RickJay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Stone
I So definitely missile engines were found that show Iraq was in violation of UN resolutions. Anything else?
I don't see how SA-2's are relevant to a claim involving WMDs. SAMs aren't WMDs.

Quote:
So we also have undeclared materials that should have been subject to monitoring, but which apparently the UN was unaware that Iraq had. Anything else?
How about some, you know, weapons of mass destruction?

Perhaps you missed the point of the OP, Sam. The OP was pitting the fact that the headline was SADDAM SHIPPED OUT WMD BEFORE WAR, AFTER. But nothing in the report demonstrates that Iraq shipped out any weapons of mass destruction, ever. You are citing evidence of completely different things.
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  #33  
Old 06-15-2004, 10:47 AM
ShibbOleth ShibbOleth is offline
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Originally Posted by MEBuckner
Aw, c'mon, Coldfire. We all know you Dutch boys got legalized dope and hookers over there, and if that don't make you part of the Axis of Evil, what would?
I think that they'd be more accurately classified as the Axis of Fun, or Party Central, if you prefer.
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  #34  
Old 06-15-2004, 04:13 PM
RTFirefly RTFirefly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShibbOleth
I think that they'd be more accurately classified as the Axis of Fun, or Party Central, if you prefer.
From John Asscroft's POV, what's the difference? If it's fun, it must be evil. Ban it!
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  #35  
Old 06-15-2004, 07:18 PM
Sam Stone Sam Stone is offline
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Rickjay said:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Stone
I So definitely missile engines were found that show Iraq was in violation of UN resolutions. Anything else?


I don't see how SA-2's are relevant to a claim involving WMDs. SAMs aren't WMDs.
Which is why I didn't call them WMDs. I said that they showed Saddam was in violation of UN resolutions. Those missile engines were proscribed.

Quote:
Quote:
So we also have undeclared materials that should have been subject to monitoring, but which apparently the UN was unaware that Iraq had. Anything else?

How about some, you know, weapons of mass destruction?

Perhaps you missed the point of the OP, Sam. The OP was pitting the fact that the headline was SADDAM SHIPPED OUT WMD BEFORE WAR, AFTER. But nothing in the report demonstrates that Iraq shipped out any weapons of mass destruction, ever. You are citing evidence of completely different things.
Which would be why I said they were different things. Are we not allowed to discuss other evidence in the same report?
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  #36  
Old 07-03-2004, 09:18 AM
Squink Squink is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay
How about some, you know, weapons of mass destruction?
May as well ask for hens teeth. It turns out that the Saddamites, terrorists, whatever have been trying to lay their hands on some of those nerve gas shells, and have had no luck even after offering $5,000 a pop:
Quote:
Dukaczewski said the Polish unit in Iraq paid an undisclosed sum of money to buy the rockets last month after an informer there told the Poles that militant groups were seeking to buy such weapons for up to $5,000 apiece. "We bought all the shells available," Dukaczewski said.
Chemicals Not Found in Iraq Warheads

If neither Baathist holdouts nor the free market can uncover Saddam's WMD stockpiles, the weapons just aren't there.
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