I know that there was the one shell that exploded and I think there was at least one other that I heard about on reputable news sources. I have seen things on conservative websites about 53 WMD’s being found. So, how many total WMD’s were found? What was the condition of the WMD’s? Were there only “trace” amounts of chemicals left? Could they have been used to kill anybody or were they too old?
Uhm, as far as I know, no real WMDs were found.
Actual active, dangerous, deadly, bona-fide nuclear/chemical/biological WMDs found in Iraq: ZERO.
Actual outdated, mostly harmless, forgotten and ignored former nuclear/chemical/biological WMDs fond in Iraq: One artillery shell, possibly dud, containing trace amounts of expired sarin, post-dated to the mid 1980s. More information about the shell can be found here.
If the United States had actually found a credible number of dangerous WMDs in Iraq, I have no doubt George W. Bush would have a live press conference to gloat about it to the world before the day was over. The fact that he hasn’t speaks volumes.
Thousands & Thousands of Tonnes. But most were destroyed by the UN after the 1st Iraq war. The UN figured they got 90%, no one knows what happened to the rest. Maybe they got lost, maybe Saddam destroyed them later, maybe the UN got 100% and Saddam’s books were just bad. Who knows?
For Gulf-War II; There were quite a few Missles that were illegal under the terms of the UN, like those SCUD type-missles that were modified for greater range, but most experts do not consider them WMD. Still illegal, however. Not a threat to the USA, but a small threat to Isreal.
What we found under GWB for "real " WMD were some older Chem shells, I don’t know how many, most with no gas in them. Left-overs from earlier days, and not a threat to the USA.
There were no “smoking gun” finds, but there is plenty of evidence that Saddam had programs to develop WMD’s. They found huge stockpiles of pesticides, which could be quickly converted into nerve gas. (Many pesticides are nerve agents, and are very closely related to nerve gases.) Some science labs had starter cultures of Anthrax, and there are lots of Iraqi scientists who say that Saddam really, really wanted nukes.
It seems that he hadn’t actually made the weapons yet, however.
In surely one of the most bizarre actions of GUlf War I, the Iraqis sent most of their airforce to Iran! Iraq and Iran were mortal enemies during their decade-long war…yet Saddam Hussein sent $3 billion worth of aircraft to Iran…whay? For safekeeping?
This leads me to suspect that many of the biological and nuclear weapons were in fact shipped to Iran.
Got a cite? I’ve heard stranger things, so I suppose it’s possible, but I don’t recall ever hearing this.
Diceman and ralph124c: could you provide some cites, please? I’d like to read more.
Thank you,
Before the war, we heard endless stories on the news about how Saddam would keep UN inspectors at bay while the back door to this building was locked up and a few trucks had some time to get away, or how they were denied entrance to that building until Saddam thought the time was right, etc. It looked like Saddam was trying to hide something.
So was this all just some big cat-and-mouse game that Saddam enjoyed playing with the UN?
Please note: this is not a rhetorical question designed to stir Debate. I genuinely want to know what was going on.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/gulf.war/facts/gulfwar/
If they were worth $3bn, that makes each plane as about as valuable as a the decommissioned MiGs that have appeared on eBay in the past.
There’s evidence that even Saddam didn’t know what was going on. His scientists and army officials would greatly exaggerate their achievements and capabilities, because to tell Saddam that his weapons weren’t good enough to face the Americans would be risking your life.
According to the final report from the CIA on the disposition of Saddam’s WMD programs, there were indeed 53 chemical munitions found. The CIA is very clear in describing these as “old, abandoned” munitions that were created before 1991 and basically lost. The CIA also states that “Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991.” Got that? Good. Now to the details:
On May 2, 2004, an IED discovered just east of Abu Ghraib was found to be a 155mm artillery shell with sulfur mustard.
On May 21, 2004, ten sulfur mustard 155mm projectiles were discovered just west of Abu Ghraib.
On June 14, 2004, one 155mm binary sarin artillery shell was found in Baghdad.
On June 4, June 25, and July 29, 2004, forty-one 122mm sarin/cyclosarin SAKR-18 rockets were found in al Khamisiyah.
You can find the whole CIA report here; I warn you that the PDFs are extremely large.
Sorry, I don’t have a cite. However, you can read about the history of Gulf War I…the colaition commanders kept expecting the Iraqi airforce to attack-instead, their fighter planes took off and flew to Iran. The $3 billion number is about what Iraq paid (or borrowed) from FRACE and Russia for their Mirages and MIGs.
I am surprised that nobody has investigated this-how could mortal enemies like Iraq and Iran all of a sudden decided to offer eachother safe haven? :smack:
Errrrr…did the planes ever return to Iraq? If not, it’s hardly a good example of co-operation between enemies. And hardly an indication that Saddam would trust Iran a second time.
The latest cite I can find on the planes NOT being returned to Iraq is from the former top guy himself:
“We erred in thinking that Iran was no longer an enemy of Iraq when we sent 115 of our aircraft there. Iran’s behavior is unprecedented. It refuses peaceful relations, in spite of all our peaceful initiatives.” --Saddam Hussein, 8/8/2000 Link.
To clarify again, the CIA has concluded that there is no way to disprove the theory that WMD may have leaked out of Iraq during the war. However, the CIA has concluded that Saddam had no active WMD programs, that stockpiles had been destroyed, and that he was waiting for sanctions to be lifted before restarting the WMD programs doesn’t lend a whole lot of credence to the idea that there were significant stockpiles in the first place, whether or not they might have been spirited out or still remain hidden.
Diceman’s comment that Saddam “had WMD programs” is true, but somewhat misleading as to the state of the programs. These programs were not producing anything. One might flippantly claim to have a “wealth creation program” consisting of playing the lottery. Let me recap the CIA’s findings on the state of the WMD programs:
Nuclear: “Although Saddam clearly assigned a high value to the nuclear progress and talent that had been developed up to the 1991 war, the program had ended and the intellectual capital decayed in the succeeding years.”
Chemical: “Saddam never abandoned his intentions to resume a CW effort when sanctions were lifted… [CIA] judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991… Iraq’s CW program was crippled by the Gulf war and the legitimate chemical industry, which suffered under sanctions, only began to recover in the mid-1990s… Iraq implemented…a system of nation-wide research and production of chemcials, but [CIA] will not be able to resolve whether Iraq intended the system to underpin any CW-related efforts… [CIA] has no evidence that the Iraqi Intelligence Service… were producing CW or BW agents in [covert] laboratories.”
Biological: “[CIA] found no direct evidence that Iraq, after 1996, had plans for a new BW program or was conducting BW-specific work for military purposes.”
This isn’t an unbiased cite, but this guy presents a pretty good summary. All of these discoveries were reported in the mainstream media, but they didn’t receive much attention.
Again, they didn’t find any actual, assembled weapons (aside from a few old relics), but there is lots of evidence that Saddam was planning to make them.
I’d look some more, but my lunch hour is almost over.
Could these weapons have been used to kill anybody? Were they still effective after they were lost or abandoned?
5/4/04, 155mm artillery shell: CIA says “analysis of the residue at the bottom of the round… returned positive indications for sulfur mustard.” There’s a picture of the shell on page 98 of Volume III of the report (see link above) and my unexpert opinion is that it would have zero combat use as a CW. If you don’t want to download the PDF, it looks like the 80-year old galvanized pipes in my house that have been gunked up with rust, lime and corrosion; not those cool green glowing balls that were depicted in the the movie, “The Rock” with Sean Connery.
Shell containing sarin: “Liquid… tested positive for the nerve agent sarin and a key sarin degeneration product… The use of this type of… IED does not allow sufficient time for mixing of the binary compounds and release in an effecitve manner, limiting the dispersal area of the chemicals.”
Ten 155mm CW rounds: “found some trace amounts of sulfur mustard and sulfur mustard degradation products in a few of the rounds… suggesting that either Iraq unilaterally destroyed the rounds or looters attempted to drain residual agent from them.”
Two 122mm rockets: “Give the age, leakage, decomposition of nerve agent, and small quantity… these rounds would have limited, if any, impact if used by insurgents against Coalition Forces.”
You get the idea, and I’m kind of tired of typing while switching windows. Check on page 97 to 105 of Volume III if you want more details. Bottom line, all this stuff looked very corroded.
According to a St Pete Times article published shortly after the sarin artillary round was detonated, most CW shells aren’t effective unless they’re actually fired from whatever weapon they’re built for. You can’t just use conventional explosives (like an IED) to blow it up and expect it to have much effect.
As these weapons appear too corroded to fire, I would think that the threat is pretty minimal.
I could have sworn that one of those “expired” chemical shells was actually used against some coalition forces. I kinda remember hearing they actually hit their target, but the guys weren’t injured! Even if the chemical payload was inert, you’d think getting hir by the shell would cause some damage…
I remember think it wasn’t much of a WMD if you get hit by and you can “walk it off”.