Magic Tricks and Intellectual Property

The BBQ Pit
1

In this thread, Hampshire requested some information, and it looks like ianzin got a mod to close it.

This isn’t a criticism of a mod or ianzin, but a geneuine GQ.

What about this is a copyright violation? I imagine that the only intellectual property protection a magic trick deserves is a patent. Of course, then it’s easy to do the trick.

Is this to say that I can’t teach magic tricks to anyone, because someone invented them? I realize I can’t photocopy a magic book and give it away, but I could teach from the book. What’s the difference? You can’t “own” a magic trick, right?

2

I closed that thread pending further information. I emailed ianzin asking for more info.

If it can be shown that sharing such information in a public forum is not a violation of copyright or other law, I could reopen the thread.

3

I’m glad that the thread has a chance of being reopened. This is a forum for sharing knowledge. If that offends anyone as a magician that’s too bad. Anyone can share how a trick is done with anyone and its totally legal. Books are published by different authors and publishers all the time explaining how various magic tricks are done.

4

I think ianzin will find that magic tricks qualify as trade secrets, not intellectual property. I can’t stand it when magicians and their apologists try to bully threads closed.

5

It sounds like you’re asking someone to demonstrate that this is not a copyright violation. Shouldn’t the burden of proof be on ianzin, as the one asking that the thread be closed, that it is a copyright violation?

6

I did some cursory googling without much success. Ended up on another messageboard which had a few dead links.

Then I ended up here. More reputable, but this site doesn’t prove anything at all. No cites or previous cases linked to.

I think xash was prudent to close the thread, but if ianzin can’t prove what he’s claimed, it should definately be reoponed.

7

Upon closer reading of my own cite, it would seem that particular site actually backs up the OP’s right to try and get a trick revealed.

The article states that a magician’s best and “only true protection” is secrecy. There doesn’t seem to be (according to this four-year-old article) any law explicity protecting magic tricks.

8

The SDMB is run by the Chicago Reader and, as such, they are somewhat touchy both over the thought of copyright violation, as well as the thought of being sued due to a copyright violation. They’re a private entity, and don’t need to overcome a particular burden of proof like the government does.

That being said, copyright only covers the expression of an idea, not the idea itself. You can copyright a movie script, but you can’t stop someone who’s seen the script from telling someone else the story it entails. (“And then at midnight they jumped out of the wooden horse and destroyed Troy.”) Of course, I am not a lawyer, I am definately not a copyright lawyer, and this is not legal advice.

Oh, and as far as magic in general is concerned, one of the cornerstones is making the suckers – er, audience – believe that they see something that is not actually the case. “And then, he tied the rope in a knot …” means that, almost definately, what the magician did with the rope was not tie it in a knot. Alternatively, maybe he did tie it in a knot, but the fact that it was tied in a knot in no way constrained the effect of the trick.

9

I understand what you are saying - but how do you prove a negative? Is there anywhere I could go that would list all of the things that are not copyrighted? If the claim has been made that this is copyrighted, then there should be a way to show that it has been.

10

Ianzin is supposed to have us believe that if I catch how a magician does a trick and I yell aloud, “hey, he just put the handkerchief up his sleeve” that I have just broken a law. This whole thing is ridiculous.

11

Then what’s the problem?

12

In the US, we have several forms of IP protections. The Big Three, with commentary are:

  1. Patents. If magic tricks were patented, then the communication of the trick is completely out in the open. How the trick is done is on file with the US government and anyway can read, copy, etc. the patent form. The patent protection only kicks in if you try to use the info in the patent for gain.

So forget patents.

  1. Trade Secrets. Nothing is filed with the government. The company enforces trade secrets via contracts with employees and others who have to know about it. If another company starts to use the same method, it is up to the first company to prove in court that the 2nd company basically stole the method.

In the case of most magic tricks, this would be near impossible. A decent magician can figure out how someone else does a trick (or frequently thinks of a better way). That’s a legal way of obtaining the secret. (Assuming the second magician had not previously signed a non-disclosure agreement.)

The only way someone could prove an actual stolen trade secret would be in the case of something like a grand illusion involving specially designed equipment and the 2nd magician’s equipment was clearly the same.

I.e., a trick involving rubber bands cannot in any way, shape, or form be considered a protectable trade secret.

  1. Copyrights. Now there is a little to talk about, but not much. Note that to gain protection at the level of financial penalties (vs. just a “stop doing that” order), one has to file a copyright form with the USLoC. I.e., it is officially out in the open. Note only the expression is protected. I.e., the written instructions or a video of the performance. You can’t make “copies” of those. (Both literally in terms of an exact duplication of the original or figuratively like making a handwritten copy of the instructions.) If you don’t file a copyright form, all you can do in court is tell the offender (after proving your case) to stop. No penalties.

Another major point: How is going to sue? I.e., who owns the claimed IP? Is there really someone out there who would actually own this rubber band trick and expects royalties? This is getting a little wacky for a trick at such a low level.

And lastly, revealing a certain part of a copyrighted work isn’t a violation of any law. E.g., if I were conversing with someone here about “Citizen Kane” and were to post:

“Rosebud” was his sled. (Sorry about the box, but I don’t assume everyone has seen it.)

Universal Pictures (who I believe owns the RKO films) is not going to even think about taking me to court.

So someone saying: David “The Great Idiot” Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty disappear by …, isn’t going to get sued.

All in all, Ianzin “fails to impress me” (to put it politely) that any such discussion of magic tricks could remotely be conceived as damaging someone’s IP rights.

One of the major failings in the Magic Community is their glacial slowness to develop new tricks. Hey, we’ve seen the person in the 3 boxes, the head cut off, etc. tricks a million times. We in fact already know how all of those are done! It is only self-delusion on the part of the magicians that keeps these old hacks in circulation.

So, stop whining, develop new tricks. And if non-magicians can figure out the trick and post how they are done, it wasn’t a good trick to begin with and it deserves to go away.

The ball is completely in Ianzin’s court. 1. That there is remotely any IP protection for magic tricks (citing actual court cases). 2. That the particular trick asked about in the other thread is still under IP protection by a certain person.

13

This is bullshit. While maybe not every trick has been revealed, a vast majority of the standard sleight-of-hand tricks are revealed at your local public library, if not the internet.

Forcing, bottom dealing, second dealing, shifting, false shuffling, etc, etc, etc (as you can tell, I mostly know about card tricks) are easy to find info about. I’ve watched street magicians and professional magicians on TV, and they do use these basic moves. Most of these secrets are not that secret. You put in the effort, you can find out.

That said, I frankly don’t care if I know how a trick is done. I’m stilll amazed at the skill of the execution. Good sleight of hand takes a lot of dexterity and a lot of practice. Expert magicians make it look effortless and, even if I know the technique going on, sometimes it’s virtually undetectable.

I’m not saying there aren’t tightly guarded trade secrets. I’m just saying that your contention of “those who tell don’t really know” is b.s. Every magician I’ve seen employs some of the basic sleights in his or her act.

14

The trick in question is sleight of hand in the truest sense. There’s absolutely no trickery to it.

A professional could probably explain it much better than I could, as could a manual or video - but I can give you a basic description.

**INSTRUCTIONS REMOVED BY TUBADIVA – **

15

I believe the trick in question (known as “Crazy Man’s Handcuffs”) is explained **LINK REMOVED BY TUBADIVA ** here. And guess what: the same site explains how to do a bunch of other magic tricks! Call the FBI! Notify the Department of Homeland Security!

There are ** LINK REMOVED BY TUBADIVA** several other sites that offer to sell you a pdf or video that explain how to do it, but the first link is a simple, free text description.

So there, ianzin.

On preview, I see that trigonal planar has beaten me to it. But my post provides a little added value, and a little humor.

16

Thanks for coming to my rescue folks.

I didn’t really think that a popular bar trick that i’ve seen in multiple books was intellectual property owned by anyone.
It’s not as if I asked how Sigfried & Roy made their tiger disappear.
If I didn’t get the answer here I would have just returned to the bookstore where I saw it and read it over more carefully.

My interest in learning tricks is so I can show them off a couple times, see if the observer can figure out how it’s done, then show them how it is done.

Showing someone a trick, having them say “That’s cool! How’d you do that?”,
and for me to say “I’m not telling you” seems a little selfish and self serving.

I make more friends teaching tricks than showing them.

17

My information in this situation comes not only from ianzin (thank you very much), but also from Abb Dickson, past president of the International Brotherhood of Magicians, the professional organization for the sawing-ladies-in-half crowd.

As stated in the original thread that started this argument, while magic tricks/illusions are not in and of themselves copyrightable (ideas cannot be copyrighted), the instructions/directions/plans can be copyrighted material and as such cannot be reproduced freely without infringing on those rights.

In the rough concept, it would not be illegal for us to tell you how a trick is done. However, it would be unethical, especially when you consider that magic tricks and illusions are the product of someone’s work and often their livelihood.

People have the right to be compensated for their work and we prefer that you not abridge such rights on this site. As we wish our copyright to be honored, we ask that you also respect the rights of others as well.

your humble TubaDiva
Administrator

18

I want to say thanks to Tubadiva for not closing this thread and only taking out the affected text. My purpose in the post wasn’t to fish out the answer in a roundabout way (I’m not the OP of the referenced post).

And of course, thanks to everyone for their answers. I hope, then, that we can convince the mods to unlock the original, referenced post. Especially because now that my curiosity is piqued, I’d like to learn the trick myself.

19

No harm, no foul, Balthisar. This is a difficult subject and a somewhat slippery slope both legally and ethically. I hope that we have managed to explain the situation and the reasoning for this ruling.

Please see Learn Magic from Michael Ammar; “Crazy Man’s Handcuffs” is in one of his books, available at the site and probably from other bookstores. You can probably also find the trick at your local magic shop.

However, the original thread is not going to be reopened, for the reasons cited earlier, the ethical considerations.

your humble TubaDiva
Administrator

20

While I do not want to cut in on anyone’s livelihood, I don’t particularly find it unethical. The actual mechanics of a trick is only a small fraction of what makes a magician successful. Anyone with the curiosity can visit the library and find out the basics of illusionism. Anyone. I find it questionable that acquiring this sort of knowledge can somehow be “unethical,” especially on a message board dedicated to finding answers. Maybe I’m alone in this, but knowing how a trick is done does not ruin the trick or entertainment value of a quality magician for me.