Suggestion for a GQ rule

About This Message Board
1

Lately there have been some disputes come up in GQ around trade secrets (in particular, how magicians perform their tricks and illusions). I think it would be beneficial to have a policy in a sticky thread, something to this effect:

  1. What you consider a “trade secret” may already be fairly well known, and you may not expect the general public to help you keep these secrets. However, posters are expected to honor whatever intellectual property laws and agreements that they are subject to.
  2. If you have a contribution to a GQ, do not expect us to accept vague statements about your unrevealed trade secrets as valid evidence in support of any conclusion. Do not expect your word to be taken at face value as fact unless you are prepared to go into detail.
  3. Do not take offense or get on your soapbox if someone asks you about a trade secret. We understand that some trades and practitioners observe a code of secrecy, and that there are always a few who don’t. You must understand that people will always be curious and ask.

Take it or don’t, I just thought it might be helpful.

2

I’m sure you mean well but you want to make a RULE about what people should expect from other posters and what to take offense at?

It’s pretty much common sense that not everyone will take you at your word. No need for another sticky, IMHO, unless the TPTB want to specifically mention that they won’t protect trade secrets the way they protect intellectual property.

3

Look, I’m just bringing up a concern, how it’s worded or implemented is open for discussion. Maybe it would be nothing but a mod guideline. It just seems that whenever magic-related threads come up we’re always going to hear these:

  1. You’re wrong, but I can’t prove it without revealing a trade secret.
  2. Shame on you for revealing magician trade secrets or asking about them.
  3. As a magician, we have a very strong tradition of not revealing secrets, blah blah blah OK WE GET IT.
4

My personal solution would be to ban anyone who claims to be a magician. :stuck_out_tongue:

5

IIRC we went through a magician-driven kerfluffle a while back, and the net result was that magician’s tricks are not protected under IP law.

6

I remembered that too, turns out it was 2 years ago. Time sure flies. Here’s the three act play:

Crazy man’s handcuffs 07-12-2004 Hampshire - the kick off magic trick request
Magic Tricks and Intellectual Property 07-12-2004 Balthisar requests clarification for the thread closure
I wish to take issue with TubaDiva’s recent magic tricks decision. 07-13-2004 friedo is more direct

7

Now there’s a word you don’t see in print very often. :smiley:

8

Technically, we wouldn’t have a rule about what people should expect, only about what people should do (or not do.) We do have some “helpful hints” to newcomers, mostly explanations, like the thread explaining SDMB jargon.

This one would be up to the GQ moderators, whether they’d like to make it “helpful hint.”

9

Magicians are the lowest rung of show business “secrecy” benefactors.
I think the top rung is multimillion dollar movies.
A spoiler for Da Vinci Code, however is not protected anything.
Sure, if you heard the plot you might decide not to see it, but also you might be tempted to see it.
Same with magic tricks.
Does somebody stop seeing magic shows because they picked up one of the hundreds of published books, most of which are at libraries?
No. People who want spoilers are often more curious to see the real thing.

10

I’d hate to generalize. Some people, as you suggest, enjoy knowing the plot outcomes or tricks in advance. Others, however, genuinely like being surprised, letting the film or book or magician or whatever perform for them.

The Message Boards need to accomodate both types. Those who want to see how tricks are done should be able to do so, assuming such information is publicly available. Those who do not, should be able to read selectively and not have elements “spoiled” for them.

And, frankly, the moderators of this board do not have the time or energy to go around checking whether you’ve posted something that is “generally known” or “publicly available” vs being a closely-held secret that somehow leaked.

11

When it comes to magic tricks published on internet forums :

Those who know don’t tell, those who tell don’t know.

(Unless Penn & Teller are dopers.)

I used to be an amateur conjuror, but I gave it up because I wasn’t very good at it. I know A a few secrets, but I’ll only tell other magicians.

12

Meh. I’ve paid for the secret behind a few close up tricks that work without any special equipment. If anyone ever started a thread on how to do those specific tricks I’d answer them in my own words.

The same way I would give someone SAP help if asked from knowledge I got from courses that I paid to go on.

13

I know magicians always say they shouldn’t give away their secrets, but from the reading I’ve done on the subject I think there really aren’t any secrets. There are a variety of palmings, forced cuts, crimps, indirection techniques, and other techniques the magician uses in order to create the desired illusions. By themselves many if not all of these things may seem extremely simple, yet take years of practice to master.

As someone who has been playing music for my own amusement, for many years, I imagine that the smooth performance of a trick is something that must be learned and practiced much like a musician has to practice a song.

14

Those who know tell, as long as you’re willing to buy their books and videos. There are no secrets. It’s all an act.

15

Nonsense. Read the threads above for explanations of how a magic trick is done. Read any number of books in a library for explanations of how a whole lot more tricks are done.

Bald statments like this sound a whole lot like someone sticking his fingers in his ears and shouting “I CAN’T HEAR YOU I CAN’T HEAR YOU!”

16

Actually, I AM an amateur magician. Not the world’s most talented one, I freely admit.

I do know this much: the real experts will not give away tricks in public forums. Sure you can find magic manuals in any public library. You actually have to do some work learning the trick. Once you know a few basic tricks you can join a magic club and learn from people with more experience. It is not the most closely guarded secret in the world. Anyone can learn it, if they take some effort. But professionals will not discuss the methods on public forums.

Anyone that does is an amateur with little actual knowledge.

17

Unsubstantiated claim.

“No True Scotsman” fallacy.

18

The question of magic secrets here on the SDMB seems plagued with a type of ‘Sorceror’s Apprentice’ problem (rather appropriately). The more one attempts to clear up misunderstandings, the more they multiply - leaving us all back at square one and none the wiser.

The point that Peter Morris has tried to make above, and that I’ve tried to offer in past threads, is that asking questions about how magic tricks are done is to a certain extent futile, for a simple reason: the people who are in a position to provide accurate information are generally disinclined to do so. In other words, magicians tend not to discuss how magic tricks are done on free (or free-ish) pubic forums such as this one.

Within the magic trade, the general ethical view on revealing or discussing secrets is this: serious interest is welcome and encouraged, casual curiosity is unwelcome and discouraged.

Expanding on this: if a person has a genuine interest in magic as a performing art, and if they are prepared to go to some time and trouble to discover how a trick is done and how to perform it… well, that’s okay. There’s nothing wrong with them buying the relevant book or DVD; or paying for some personal tuition; or joining their local magic club where they can discuss method and technique with others who share the interest. All of these are good ways in which magic is passed from one generation to the next. What we (in the trade) tend to frown on is simply giving away the secrets via public media (such as this) so that anyone with even the most casual passing curiosity can learn the basics of how such-and-such a trick is done. Rightly or wrongly, and whether Dopers like it or not, we tend to think that this is detrimental to magic as a whole, and especially to those who entertain people with magic for a living.

Now, Derleth is of course perfectly entitled to say ‘Unsubstantiated claim’, or to suggest that the ‘No true Scotsman’ fallacy may be present. There is nothing I can do to substantiate what I’m saying here, and I’m sure it’s as obvious to Derleth as it is to me that there is no mechanism by which it could be substantiated. I’m simply reporting from 25-30 years of experience. All I can say is that if Derleth were to spend a long, long time getting to know the magic trade and the people in it, as I have done, I believe he would eventually conclude that the description I’ve given above - of how the majority of magicians view the subject of public discussion of magic secrets - to be an accurate one.

So what should the SDMB policy be on magic secrets?

In the past, when people have started threads about how such-and-such a trick is done, I have felt it was relevant and helpful to point out that ‘those who know are unlikely to tell’, and perhaps to point out that some of the responses are not well-informed ones. However, I’ve been flamed a little for doing so. I’ve been accused of deliberately leading false trails and giving out disinformation (something I have never knowingly done), and I’ve also seen my intentions mis-characterised as a rather smug and insufferable form of ‘I know but I’m not telling, na na nana na’. I have apologised to Dopers who felt that this was what I was doing - it wasn’t my intention.

The point here is not one of censorship, but of pragmatism. I am not advocating a policy that says ‘You can’t discuss how magic tricks are done on the Dope’. I’m saying that it’s largely futile to do so, for the reasons given above: the people with the facts generally don’t tell.

My own opinion is that if someone posts a question here about how a trick is done, the appropriate response is for someone like myself (or others in a position to know) to refer the OP to a source where they can pursue their interest - albeit they will have to go to some time and trouble to do so. This is what happened with a recent thread about card manipulations and flourishes, where the question was asked and answered without any fuss, heat, invective, argument, flames or policy discussions.

But that’s just my opinion.

19

This is true when talking about people like you who are pro’s and also to a lesser extent amateurs but there are people here who know a few answers and are willing to give them. If someone for example asks how Blaine did his levitation stunt on his show, many members here would be able to answer him. If someone how he does the resealing can of coke trick I can tell them as I bought that trick. If a member wants to ask a question and it can be answered without breaking any rule or law then it should be allowed. Many non professionals answer questions on this site. I can totally see why you wouldn’t answer the questions but if someone is willing to answer the question then it is perfectly appropriate for them to answer.

20

Isn’t this entirely about magic tricks and in particular Ianzin?

What other ‘trade secrets’ did you have in mind?

(I’ve seen glowing references for Ianzin and agree with his stance on not revealing magic tricks.)