This current GD thread – http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=277531 – about whether ID cards should be required for voting reminded me that, in the aftermath of 9/11 and the formation of the new Department of Homeland Security, there was some talk of issuing a new national ID card – presumably, a photo ID, unlike the Social Security card. But we don’t hear much about that any more. Some people oppose the idea on principle, but I’m not clear on why. Do other countries have national ID cards? If so, is it a practice which lends itself to abuse? (I mean, in democratic countries, not dictatorships.)
What would the benefits be?
Well, it would be an inconvenience. Some would say, what’s the big deal? I say, it probably isn’t a big deal at first, but after awhile, these little inconveniences start to add up to a big pain in the ass. And whenever an ass is involved, you know there’s gonna be some shit.
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First, you gotta wait in line to get one of these little “treasures”. DMV style baby. Currently, you wait for a drivers license. Now you’ll have to do it twice. So after you the the DL, you then go to a federal building and do it over? No thanks.
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You’re gonna pay for it. You know you’re gonna pay for it!
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Every, single, god damn, federal and state facility will require you to use it for services.
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5 years later, if stopped by law enforcement, you’ll be required to have the ID on you. $75.00 dollar fine if you don’t. You know it’ll happen.
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5 years later again, every, single, god damn, store, ball park and parking lot will require you to get it scanned for services.
But you could make the same complaints about driver’s licenses. You don’t need to have one on you while walking, but you do while driving. And they’re used as ID for all kinds of purposes.
I’m thinking that a national ID card could replace driver’s licenses. That is, the card itself, or info in a database accessible through a magnetic stripe on the back, could encode up-do-date info on everything about you relevant to government, or resulting from transactions with government – your Social Security account; your status as a licensed or unlicensed driver; your voting registration status and place of residence for voting purposes (this could solve the problem, mentioned in the thread linked in the OP, of people registering and voting in more than one state); your status as a citizen or resident alien (also would eliminate the problem – some see it as a problem, anyway – of noncitizens voting); etc. And your draft registration status, assuming we ever revive the draft. And your criminal record, if any, and status as a probationer or parolee. We have government-issued cards for all these things anyway; I’m just talking about consolidating them into a single card.
So why not? Erosion of personal privacy? This is the information age. With the right software I could dig out practically all information about you that exists in any public database, without a court order or subpoena or anything, in fifteen minutes. I’ve seen it done, just a few months ago, in the research department of a newspaper. Some cyberguru – I forget his name – famously said, not long ago: “You have zero privacy anyway. Get over it.”
We have one, mandatory for everybody who is 16 or older. It looks like this. The backside lists your current address.
Here the ID itself has no real potential for abuse since you have to register your residence anyway. For practical purposes this rules out living as an stealth hermit. It’s also important to note that there is no nationwide registry of the data, only local databases.
Since everybody has it, it is used in all situations were ID is required. You use it for official purpuses like dealing with officials and voting, or, if aren’t obviously at least 16/18 for thinks like buying alcohol or entering clubs. In situations were some ID is legally mandatory, nobody will care for your driver’s license, in less formal situations people might perhaps accept it.
Btw. we don’t pay for it. We have to provide it on request (but not necessarily on the spot.) However police is free to count you as “not identified” and hold you till they checked your identity, although I have never seen this happen in real life. Of course things change if you are suspect of a crime or in an accident…
Privacy is not my issue. I don’t get people who get worked up about their SSN privacy when a 12 year old can easily figure it out. Nothing is private these days, nothing!
For one thing, I would think the states would balk at this in a second. You would be merging state and federal resources. In some areas, I think this would be an issue. I think there would be the problem of ‘control’ and who’s going to control what. A lot of control freaks out there. But that at the administration level.
For me, I can see it being made a requirement, while at the same time, the other systems will be kept in place for 20 years along side this requirement. And nothing will be compatible. For example, at work we use a job scheduler that we’ve used for over 10 years. 3 Years ago, the idea was to not support the old scheduler and use a new one. So we’re now using the new one. It’s great and everyone loves it! But we’re still using the old scheduler, and it doesn’t look likes it’s going away anytime soon. So now it’s twice the work. In many ways, corporations work like government. So while the new ID system might work well and be efficient, many places will still require you to have three pieces of ID, for another 20 years.
I think that’s one objection Americans might raise. Some Americans want to live as “stealth hermits,” not visible on any official database. Some appear to do this for religious reasons, believe it or not. I once litigated a case for a licensed midwifery clinic. The midwife told me that some of their clients are extreme religious conservatives – and they typically duck out the door right after the baby is delivered and right before it’s time to fill out the birth-certificate paperwork. They don’t want “Caesar” to know they or their children even exist.
I see absolutely no reason why any modern society should tolerate this, but I know Libertarians and many others would disagree vehemently.
Unless the legislation creating the national ID card system also expressly provided for immediately discontinuing all forms of ID made redundant by it. States might balk at this, as you say, but when the federal government really wants something done, always has leverage (mainly the giving or withholding of federal aid) to get the states to fall in line – e.g., as with the old 55-mph national speed limit.
National ID card? Every country I know of has that as an option. It’s called a passport. I’ve only travelled to one foreign country from the US: Canada. I (and the passengers with me) never had a passport. When the customs man (or woman) at the other side of the border asked us and we announced that we were US citizens, they just waved us to pass. This was pre-9/11, and maybe things have changed. On the US side, as the car had US plates, all they ever asked about was what we were importing. As at that point we were on US soil, they couldn’t toss us back to Canada. I’d guess it would be all kinds of expensive to detain me and take me before a judge where I would say “I’m a citizen here, your honor. What shall we do about this?”
It might have a lot to do I live in Michigan. It’s gonna be a whole lotta problems around here if travelling to Canada becomes an issue. The folks in the Detroit just don’t think going over to Canada is odd. Changing this would cause significant problems.
Yes, but you can’t carry your passport in your wallet. (It needs lots of pages for visa stamps.) This whole idea was brought up in the context of fighting terrorism – meaning, to be effective, it has to be something people can reasonably be expected to carry on their persons in case a cop or FBI or DHS agent should demand to see it.
Ick.
Lots of icky things are necessary.
Cannot a US passport fit in the pocket of my pants? This wouldn’t be a major problem. The Canadian customs officials just never asked for such. When I and my passengers told them we were US citizens, they just told us to go by. I did state we were tourists. They just said go along. Why should I argue if the Canadian officials told me to go along? Maybe things have changed a whole lot since I last went to Canada. Do the Candians today tell folks like me to fuck off, and return to the US?
Yes, but it depends on what is necessary. Taking a dump is necessary, but how is demanding ID necessary?
You may say to “keep track” of people, or for convenience of services…
Why? Who are you, the government, or I, to enforce this on another human being? If someone doesn’t want to be a part of it, that should be their choice. And in that choice, they may miss out on things, but that is their choice to make. Well, it should be anyways.
Part of the privacy concerns stem from how such a meta-database would be secured. It’s all fine and dandy to say any 12-year old whiz kid could look up my welfare cheques but the reality hits harder when you are handing over a card with the key to your entire life as ID to rent “Finding Nemo”.
I hate slippery slope/thin edge type arguments but national registration systems have a lot of potential for abuse. I’d be a lot more concerned about the details of implementation than the bogey man of the photo ID itself.
From memory case history:
In Canada, Social Insurance Numbers were brought in with express rules about only being used by the government for social assistance type info. Rules are still on the books saying that SIN cards/numbers cannot be demanded as ID but don’t bother applying for anything financially related without it.
“but don’t bother applying for anything financially related without it nowadays”
Israeli. We have one - lists your National ID + Address + a few other data. Non-computerized.
As for ParentalAdvisory’s comments:
Check 
Nope. Never has been payed for (unless you lose it and need to have it replaced within an “unacceptably short” time [open to haggling with the clerk at the Ministry Office]).
Almost everyone, including Govt. agencies, accepts a picture Driver’s License as ID. There are some cases where the “Official” ID is required, but I don’t bother lugging it around in my wallet on the off-chance I’ll need it on a day-to-day basis.
Maybe. Technically, Israeli’s are supposed to have their National ID on their person at all times. In practice? Meh…
Nope. It isn’t computerized anyway… anytime I need to produce ID (say to pay by check at a store) my DL is fine.
Now we’ve had a National ID from day one here - 56 years and counting - so I don’t think things are going to change much. The only idea currently in the works is adding demographic data to the DL’s magstrip, effectively making it a combination DL and National ID. Been about 10 years now since it has been coming Real Soon Now…
Dani
The fundamental objection is that new forms of ID are not necessary, or useful.
Most of the 9/11 terrorists had perfectly acceptable ID, and would still have had perfectly acceptable ID even if this proposal had been in place. (Don’t bother arguing that one of the few exceptions would have been caught – if the system had been in place, the terrorists, who for all their faults had multidigit IQs, would have simply replaced anybody who couldn’t get a clean card pointing to a clean record.)
The fact that a national ID card system would obviously not fill its advertised function raises obvious questions as to its real intended function.
Do go on. What do you think is its real intended function?
Not to speak for Steve MB but: I would guess it’s main function would be statistacal info tool for the government (and whoever they sold/shared the info with). What other function would it serve? Money savings from card/data bank conglomeration? I believe that when I see it.
Nope – having advanced a Swiss-cheese argument as to why they want a National ID card and having it shot down, the burden is on the advocates’ side to come up with another (hopefully more plausible) argument in favor of it.
Demanding ID? As I posted before, even other countries didn’t do so. The Canadians just took my word and let me pass. As I obeyed all the laws there, nobody hasseled me. I did this with a Michigan driver’s license, which nobody asked to see. I’d think it odd if someone in the US demanded a national ID that a foreign nation just never thought was important. I got the idea that the Canadians were more than happy to let me spend my money there. Seems like a sensible border policy to me.