Would you shoot child and kill your child in this situation?

[Kel Varnsen - Latex Division]

You are driving out in middle of the country. There is nobody else around. Your back left tire blows and you lose control of the car and it hits a tree. There is a lot of damage to the car. Your seven year-old child is trapped by the dashboard crushing your child. You can't get your child out. The accident also caused a fire. There is no way to stop the fire. Your child is going to burn to death. Your child is also aware of the situation was not knocked out by the accident. You have a hand gun with you. Would you shoot your child as soon as to realized your child would burn to death? Would you shoot your child when your child starts to burn? Or would you watch your child burn to death? Would you hold someone who killed their child in this situation to be morally responsible for murder?

[Kalhoun]

Hey, merry fucking christmas, dude!

[kezami]

I'd shoot myself so I wouldn't have to witness his suffering.

[astro]

Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen - Latex Division

You are driving out in middle of the country. There is nobody else around. Your back left tire blows and you lose control of the car and it hits a tree. There is a lot of damage to the car. Your seven year-old child is trapped by the dashboard crushing your child. You can't get your child out. The accident also caused a fire. There is no way to stop the fire. Your child is going to burn to death. Your child is also aware of the situation was not knocked out by the accident. You have a hand gun with you. Would you shoot your child as soon as to realized your child would burn to death? Would you shoot your child when your child starts to burn? Or would you watch your child burn to death? Would you hold someone who killed their child in this situation to be morally responsible for murder?

I really can't see what place this question has in great debates. It's a grotesque dilemma that borders on emotional pornography. If you're trying to make a metaphor for assisted suicide I would suggest you try again.

[Bryan Ekers]

Why do you have an unsecured gun near your child? Hmph, talk about irresponsible parenting!

[Kel Varnsen - Latex Division]

I'd shoot myself so I wouldn't have to witness his suffering.

The child still suffers.

[Kel Varnsen - Latex Division]

I really can't see what place this question has in great debates. It's a grotesque dilemma that borders on emotional pornography. If you're trying to make a metaphor for assisted suicide I would suggest you try again.

I didn't think it would fit in IMHO so I put it in here. There is a debate as to whether you would kill your child.

Why do you have an unsecured gun near your child? Hmph, talk about irresponsible parenting!

How do you know it not secure? You have it in a shoulder holster.

[xtisme]

Not sure what you are getting at with this...i.e. if its a loaded question and you have an agenda.

To put it simply, I'd do whatever it took to get my child out of the car...or die trying. I wouldn't shoot my child to end his/her suffering except in some fairly fantastic and unrealistic circumstances...and I'd probably then turn the gun on myself because it would destroy me.

That answer your question?

-XT

[rfgdxm]

My answer to the original question is yes. Then again, I actually have shaken the hand of Jack Kevorkian, so you can figure out from that my ethical bias.

[ExTank]

Jeez. I think Kalhoun said it best at post #2.

[ShibbOleth]

I'd shoot the asshole who put a child in the front see of the car.

[rfgdxm]

Originally Posted by xtisme

To put it simply, I'd do whatever it took to get my child out of the car...or die trying. I wouldn't shoot my child to end his/her suffering except in some fairly fantastic and unrealistic circumstances...and I'd probably then turn the gun on myself because it would destroy me.
-XT

Why would you turn the gun on yourself because it would destroy you? I would consider it morally more disturbing not to kill someone I cared about who was hopelessly suffering and could not be saved (unless they were capable of saying they just preferred to suffer hopelessly and die without intervention.)

[Kel Varnsen - Latex Division]

I'd shoot the asshole who put a child in the front see of the car.

Don't fight the hypothetical.

[jsgoddess]

Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen - Latex Division

You are driving out in middle of the country. There is nobody else around. Your back left tire blows and you lose control of the car and it hits a tree. There is a lot of damage to the car. Your seven year-old child is trapped by the dashboard crushing your child. You can't get your child out. The accident also caused a fire. There is no way to stop the fire. Your child is going to burn to death.

I would continue to struggle to put out the fire and to get the child loose until the child died or I died. There is no way in the world that the outcome could be clear, beyond the tiniest shred of a doubt, so I would fight what might be the inevitable until there was nothing left to fight for. I can't know what's inevitable until it happens.

[Malodorous]

Wow, second child killing themed OP for you in as many days. Must be the SAD setting in. Also I don't understand what this means, but I think I'm going to make it my new motto 'cause it sounds really cool:

Originally Posted by Kel

Don't fight the hypothetical

As for the OP, I think that if I were in some sort of vulcan like super rational state and it was increadably obvious that there was no way to get the kid out of the car, I'd shoot him. But the reality is that I would almost certainly not be rational enough to do anything but futily try to pull him out, even if to an outside observer it would be obvious that it was hopeless.

[ExTank]

Originally Posted by rfgdxm

Why would you turn the gun on yourself because it would destroy you? I would consider it morally more disturbing not to kill someone I cared about who was hopelessly suffering and could not be saved (unless they were capable of saying they just preferred to suffer hopelessly and die without intervention.)

Because it doesn't make it any easier emotionally on the person pulling the plug, morality be damned.

[Zebra]

No I would not shoot the child, I would just watch him burn.


Now if the front right tire had blown, then I'd plug him right between the eyes, but with the back left tire you have to watch him die.

[rfgdxm]

Originally Posted by Malodorous

As for the OP, I think that if I were in some sort of vulcan like super rational state and it was increadably obvious that there was no way to get the kid out of the car, I'd shoot him. But the reality is that I would almost certainly not be rational enough to do anything but futily try to pull him out, even if to an outside observer it would be obvious that it was hopeless.

You have a good point here. The hypothetical chosen in the OP wasn't the best in that it presumes some mere human in such a crisis situation could logically conclude that it was totally hopeless in seconds. Pretty hard in mere seconds to deduce: "There is no way to stop the fire. Your child is going to burn to death." is unquestionably the case.

[PaulFitzroy]

Would you shoot child and kill your child in this situation?

Only if I wanted to go to jail for murder. If I was a cop and I came upon the scene you've described, I'd think it was the work of a stupid killer who shot his son and then tried to burn his body beyond recognition, making it look like he died in the car accident.

[wnorthr]

Originally Posted by Kalhoun

Hey, merry fucking christmas, dude!

That was great. Now I have to clean the coke out of my keyboard.

[kezami]

Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen - Latex Division

The child still suffers.

What you describe is a hopeless situation and the child will die regardless of any intervention. I would not shoot and kill my child under any circumstance. If I kill myself before I would otherwise witness his final suffering what does morality have to do with it?

[Greenback]

Originally Posted by Zebra

No I would not shoot the child, I would just watch him burn.


Now if the front right tire had blown, then I'd plug him right between the eyes, but with the back left tire you have to watch him die.

Where do I find this chart you are obviously referencing?


I think I die trying. My children will never fear my hand.

[Odesio]

Originally Posted by Kalhoun

Hey, merry fucking christmas, dude!

Thank you for making my day, Kal. This was my exact thought.

Marc

[ShibbOleth]

Originally Posted by PaulFitzroy

Only if I wanted to go to jail for murder. If I was a cop and I came upon the scene you've described, I'd think it was the work of a stupid killer who shot his son and then tried to burn his body beyond recognition, making it look like he died in the car accident.

Coroner could tell that the child was burned before shot, since the inside of the lungs would show damage attributable to the fire. You'd probably still get arrested, and would likely face other charges.

[chorpler]

I wonder if it would be possible to shoot your kid free in this kind of situation. Either by blowing away chunks of the dashboard, or (much more horrifically) using the bullets to sever the portion of the body that is trapped by the dashboard. I'd rather have my daughters alive no matter what. But that probably counts as fighting the hypothetical.

Man, this is a tricky one. Honestly there's probably no way to know what I would do unless it were actually happening. I've always thought it would be better to die instantly than to burn to death in agony, but I don't know if I'd be able to do something like that to somebody I love. I'd like to think I would do anything, including shielding my child from the flames with my own body, until there was obvious we were all going to die, but ... I really don't think it can be answered unless it was actually happening.

[Malodorous]

Originally Posted by kezami

I'd shoot myself so I wouldn't have to witness his suffering.

Wow, so your kid is trapped in a burning car, he turns to you for help/comfort/something, only to see his father blow his own brains out. Talk about making a really bad day worse.

[kezami]

Originally Posted by wnorthr

That was great. Now I have to clean the coke out of my keyboard.

Why? Were you in mid snort?


(use the little spoon)

[xtisme]

Originally Posted by rfgdxm

Why would you turn the gun on yourself because it would destroy you? I would consider it morally more disturbing not to kill someone I cared about who was hopelessly suffering and could not be saved (unless they were capable of saying they just preferred to suffer hopelessly and die without intervention.)

Basically, and not to be snide here, if you have to ask this question then you've either never been a parent or never lost a child. To SEE a child of your own die is hard enough (and I have first hand knowledge of this)...to KILL my child, reguardless of whether it would be more 'human' to do so would destroy me. If you figure you could blithely shoot your kid and walk away....well, we are different people.

-XT

[Tapioca Dextrin]

This is a classic situation of basing morality on absurd situauations.

I refuse to answer the question as my morals are based on what happens in real life, not on high school philosophy .

[kezami]

Originally Posted by Malodorous

Wow, so your kid is trapped in a burning car, he turns to you for help/comfort/something, only to see his father blow his own brains out. Talk about making a really bad day worse.

Who's he going to share the indescribably unpleasant experience with?

[Bryan Ekers]

Here's an alternate hypothetical for you: A crashed bus teeters precariously on an overpass, partly blocking the commuter rail line. You can push the bus to the east, and it will fall off the overpass to crush an minority orphanage, or you can push the bus to the west, where it will fall and destroy a home for the cheerful mentally disabled, or you can leave it, in which case a train full of concerned environmentalists and civil rights activists will be derailed and careen into a series of refinery storage tanks, creating a huge fire. Above it all, an anal-retentive angel with a penchant for symmetry waits, eager to rebalance the equation any time you come up with a justification for a choice. Don't like orphans? The orphanage is now an animal shelter. Don't care about the disabled? It's now a veteran's home for Medal of Honor winners. Don't like environmentalists and activists? The train is now full of AIDS researchers and Nobel Peace-prize winners.

So what do you do, hotshot? What do you do?! And this time shooting the hostage is not an option!

[ExTank]

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers

Here's an alternate hypothetical for you: A crashed bus teeters precariously on an overpass, partly blocking the commuter rail line. You can push the bus to the east, and it will fall off the overpass to crush an minority orphanage, or you can push the bus to the west, where it will fall and destroy a home for the cheerful mentally disabled, or you can leave it, in which case a train full of concerned environmentalists and civil rights activists will be derailed and careen into a series of refinery storage tanks, creating a huge fire. Above it all, an anal-retentive angel with a penchant for symmetry waits, eager to rebalance the equation any time you come up with a justification for a choice. Don't like orphans? The orphanage is now an animal shelter. Don't care about the disabled? It's now a veteran's home for Medal of Honor winners. Don't like environmentalists and activists? The train is now full of AIDS researchers and Nobel Peace-prize winners.

So what do you do, hotshot? What do you do?! And this time shooting the hostage is not an option!

Finger the angel, set the bus on fire, light my first cigarette in 4 months, and watch the screaming and flailing of multiple burn/crush/blunt trauma victims with nicotine-induced emotional detachment, while waiting for Satan to arrive and offer me a long-term employment contract

[xtisme]

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers

Here's an alternate hypothetical for you: A crashed bus teeters precariously on an overpass, partly blocking the commuter rail line. You can push the bus to the east, and it will fall off the overpass to crush an minority orphanage, or you can push the bus to the west, where it will fall and destroy a home for the cheerful mentally disabled, or you can leave it, in which case a train full of concerned environmentalists and civil rights activists will be derailed and careen into a series of refinery storage tanks, creating a huge fire. Above it all, an anal-retentive angel with a penchant for symmetry waits, eager to rebalance the equation any time you come up with a justification for a choice.

Well, leaving aside the angel, who I'd just ignore anyway ('what, don't like my choice? Well get your skinny winged ass down here and YOU make the call you prat!'), I would mournfully have to sacrifice that train full of concerned environmentalists. Hell, its what they would want, and I could, with regrets, let them plumet to their deaths to save...well, just about any other group I can think of.

-XT

[Paladud]

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers

Here's an alternate hypothetical for you: A crashed bus teeters precariously on an overpass, partly blocking the commuter rail line. You can push the bus to the east, and it will fall off the overpass to crush an minority orphanage, or you can push the bus to the west, where it will fall and destroy a home for the cheerful mentally disabled, or you can leave it, in which case a train full of concerned environmentalists and civil rights activists will be derailed and careen into a series of refinery storage tanks, creating a huge fire. Above it all, an anal-retentive angel with a penchant for symmetry waits, eager to rebalance the equation any time you come up with a justification for a choice. Don't like orphans? The orphanage is now an animal shelter. Don't care about the disabled? It's now a veteran's home for Medal of Honor winners. Don't like environmentalists and activists? The train is now full of AIDS researchers and Nobel Peace-prize winners.

So what do you do, hotshot? What do you do?! And this time shooting the hostage is not an option!

I'd leave the bus alone because, in no particular order:
a) I'm not directly involved with making a choice, and do not objectify any of the parties involved, thus not violating Kant's categorical imperative.
b) More time to read the SDMB.
c) Huge fires are fun.
d) I'd feel much worse about the deaths of veterans or animals than treehuggers or Nobel Peace Prize winners

[Bryan Ekers]

Okay, wiseguys, the angel magically transports your entire family onto the train.

Then again, judging from some of the pit threads, I expect a number of dopers would be cheering the outcome.

[xtisme]

Am I allowed to rip the angels lungs out as an option?

-XT

[clairobscur]

Originally Posted by Tapioca Dextrin

This is a classic situation of basing morality on absurd situauations.

I refuse to answer the question as my morals are based on what happens in real life, not on high school philosophy .

The OP might be unrealistic, but people have been known to kill their children in desperate situation (and also in situation they perceive as desperate when they really aren't). So, the concept isn't utterly off base.

However, how would anybody know what they would do in a truly awful situation? IMO, answering the OP is pointless. Or at least, I don't see the point. Except if it's related with the "euthanasia in the Netherlands thread", but honestly, this hypothetical isn't well thought (to say the least).

[pravnik]

Would I shoot my child if he was trapped in a burning car?

Well, I wouldn't shoot him right away. I'd fire a warning shot first, just to let him know I was serious. Then, if it absolutely couldn't be helped, I'd try to shoot him in the leg or something, just to disable him long enough for me to get away.

[Bryan Ekers]

Originally Posted by pravnik

Would I shoot my child if he was trapped in a burning car?

Well, I wouldn't shoot him right away. I'd fire a warning shot first, just to let him know I was serious. Then, if it absolutely couldn't be helped, I'd try to shoot him in the leg or something, just to disable him long enough for me to get away.

Obviously an extract from Jack Handy's Guide to Parenting.

[manhattan]

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers

So what do you do, hotshot? What do you do?! And this time shooting the hostage is not an option!

Kick myself for cheaping out on the Karl Malden-approved Green Card instead of the Black Card? Betcha those fuckers could fix things for me while still finding time to procure a rug made from Saddam Hussein's new beard.

[Mangetout]

Using mainly spoons, I would send smoke signals to sumnmon the giant squid lords of the great deep, then I would threaten them with the gun until they put out the fire with their laser-guided jet propulsion machines.

Or maybe I would just use the fire extinguisher.

[Reeder]

Your car stalls on the railroad tracks. In the car is just you and your young child strapped in the car seat in the back seat.

You try and try to start your car not noticing the train bearing down on you.

Suddenly you do see it. But it's to late to get your child out the car seat and save both of you.

But you can get out and save yourself.

What do you do?

[Netbrian]

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers

Here's an alternate hypothetical for you: A crashed bus teeters precariously on an overpass, partly blocking the commuter rail line. You can push the bus to the east, and it will fall off the overpass to crush an minority orphanage, or you can push the bus to the west, where it will fall and destroy a home for the cheerful mentally disabled, or you can leave it, in which case a train full of concerned environmentalists and civil rights activists will be derailed and careen into a series of refinery storage tanks, creating a huge fire. Above it all, an anal-retentive angel with a penchant for symmetry waits, eager to rebalance the equation any time you come up with a justification for a choice. Don't like orphans? The orphanage is now an animal shelter. Don't care about the disabled? It's now a veteran's home for Medal of Honor winners. Don't like environmentalists and activists? The train is now full of AIDS researchers and Nobel Peace-prize winners.

So what do you do, hotshot? What do you do?! And this time shooting the hostage is not an option!

Depends -- Is the angel female? Is she hot? If so, I might ask her out.

[JohnBckWLD]

Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen - Latex Division

You can't get your child out. The accident also caused a fire...Would you shoot your child when your child starts to burn? Or would you watch your child burn to death?

[Woody Allen]
I wouldn't be able to get over the trauma brought on by the fact I was packing heat, but forgot to pack marshmallows.
[/Woody Allen]

[Bryan Ekers]

Originally Posted by Reeder

Your car stalls on the railroad tracks. In the car is just you and your young child strapped in the car seat in the back seat.

You try and try to start your car not noticing the train bearing down on you.

Suddenly you do see it. But it's to late to get your child out the car seat and save both of you.

But you can get out and save yourself.

What do you do?

Are there environmentalists on the train?

[capacitor]

I shoot you first, then get the child out.

[manhattan]

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers

Are there environmentalists on the train?

Better. At this point in the thread, Gaudere is on the train. As the engineer. And if you squint, you can see her shoveling a little more coal into the boiler. She's gonna knock this thread to MPSIMS. The only question is whether Dr. Kimble can get out of the train first.

[ExTank]

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers

Okay, wiseguys, the angel magically transports your entire family onto the train.

Then again, judging from some of the pit threads, I expect a number of dopers would be cheering the outcome.

Considering that my sister gave away her checking account and credit card information to a complete stranger over a cell phone, and I'm now Santa Claus as far as her kids are concerned, I'm not really seeing a downside to this.

[Kel Varnsen - Latex Division]

Can we stop the hijacking and get back to the OP?

[ExTank]

Sorry, no, we're in the middle of hijacking a derailed train, with an Moderator as hostage to boot.