The European Union and Turkey have reached an agreement that will allow negotiations on Turkey’s EU membership to start October 3, 2005. Until that time, Turkey will not be required to recognize the government of Cyprus. Negotiations will be for full EU membership, not the lesser associate membership some had suggested. http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/12/17/eu.turkey/index.html
Many prominent European leaders, such as Chancellor Schroeder of Germany, support Turkey’s membership bid. Of course, full EU membership for Turkey would mean that the EU is no longer a federation of Christian nations only. In principle, that precedent would open the door to admitting other Muslim nations, such as Morocco and Algeria, if and when they reach a satisfactory level of stable democratic government. In August, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the Vatican’s most senior theologian and head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, declared that Turkey should not join the EU but seek its future in an association of Muslim countries. From http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/ECEE591F-A4ED-46BE-8784-1459F23710E2.htm:
What do you think, Euro Dopers? Turkish Dopers? (If we have any – I can’t recall any Doper ever identifying himself/herself as Turkish.) Should Turkey look west or east? Join the EU, or try to form a separate Muslim federation?
What about the Kurds of eastern Turkey? If Turkey joins the EU, their independence movement becomes the Union’s problem. Not that the Union has any authority to redraw national borders – but there will be some Kurds in the European Parliament, pushing their agenda any way they can.
The prospect of EU membership has been a major force in Turkey tackling many of those issues. That alone seems to me a good reason to keep the door open - after all, we’re not talking about membership until 2015, more time than it took for Spain to go from military dictatorship to EU membership.
Turkish EU membership is a very big issue here in Germany, largely due to the fact that the Turkish are by far the most important community of immigrants. Schroder supports Turkey joining the EU, while the conservatives are against; it will surely be a very important campaign issue for the 2006 elections.
Personally, I’m in favor of Turkey joining (and frankly, I think that Ratzinger would better remain silent here - if he’s acting as a Vatican official, then one would argue that this state is not an EU member; and if he’s acting as an official of the Catholic Church, then I would like to mention that there’s something called the separation of church and state).
First of all, Turkey has been promised that one day it would be allowed to join. This promise didn’t include a specified date, but I would think Turkey would justly feel deceived if it was now told that full membership - and full membership was what it had been promised - would be beyond its reach.
Secondly, I think that the humanitarian rights situation in Turkey, which actually is poor, is rather an argument in favor of Turkey’s admission: With the country being a member, the Union can effectively influence Turkish politics towards a free society. Remember that many now fully democratic members - Spain, Portugal, Greece, even France in the 1960s - had some lacks in democracy shortly before or even after joining the Union.
Finally, I think the cultural argument, claiming that Turkey is essentially an Asian country, not a European, is rather a pretense used by the conservatives to conceal an attitude which seems fairly xenophobic to me. The EU an association of the Christian occident? Come on, how many Europeans actually live the Christian faith nowadays. This notion of a homogenously Christian Union simply isn’t reality.
One of the big issues I’ve seen in Turkey joining the EU is that Turkey has the death penalty. I’m assuming Turkey still has it, if not please correct me. If they do still have it, how big a stumbling block is it in actual membership? Would it be overlooked or is it a make or break policy change required?
In 2002, Turkey abolished the peacetime death penalty, and in 2004 the death penalty during war. This was due to Turkey’s efforts to join not only the EU but also the Council of Europe.
I did think of one more thing. With the havy influx of Muslims into France, England, and I’m guessing Germany, why would Turkey being a Muslim country be a hinderence? I can make a guess it may have to do with terrorism, or a protectionist idea of being Christian nations, though those are just WAGs. But if Turkey were in the EU, wouldn’t there be a better chance of current, less established Muslims emigrating there?
If these questions are getting off-topic, let me know. Maybe I’ll start a new thread. I learned a lot in the IRA/England thread I started and wouldn’t getting a better handle on what is happening with this situation.
Morocco and Algeria are not European nations. Though one could claim they have been part of European civilization under the Roman empire, really that is very far fetched. Turkey at least has a little, tiny bit inside geographical Europe. Moreover they have no natural allies inside the EU pressing for their admittance – and neither will Turkey be that (Last year, or two years back. Gadaffi put in a full page ad in many major large European newspapers, arguing for keeping Turkey out.). And they have no historical promise (Turkey was first promised membership 43 years ago) to lean up at. But I don’t think anyone have ever talked seriously against Bosnia or Albania being admitted when the time is right.
Personally I would rather see work being done to include Ukraine, Belarusian and Russia. Those are all nations with a long and clear European history and identity. I would also see Israel included. For some reason many people who think Turkey is the best idea since sliced bread, balk at Russian & Israel.
I’m warily in favour of Turkey. As it can push Turkey and the region towards greater secularism and modernization. Also they are going through a strong economic as well as educational growth, both of which a stagnant Europe could use in a few years. But they have many many changes to make yet, and realistically we’re talking 20 years or more down the road.
Ratzinger is allowed his opinion, and the opportunity to voice it like everybody else.
Fat chance of Belarus wanting in any time soon. How Ukraine develops internally will be interesting. Russia would have a long way to go than any other country seriously being discussed to get its economy in order. And the human rights issues would have to be treated the same with Israel as they are being with Turkey.
Don’t forget that Romania and Bulgaria will be joining in 2007, and Croatia and Macedonia are knocking on the door. The other Balkan states are next in the queue to begin talks. Excluding Turkey from all of this simply cannot make sense.
Well Israel gets to compete in the Eurovision Song Contest, so there’s hope for you yet!
A minor aside about the fears of those expecting a widescale influx of Turks seeking employment: we’ve so far seen a disproportionately small amount of immigration from the new EU countries into Ireland (except for Lithuania, for some reason), even though Ireland is a hot destination for immigrants at the moment. Moreover, on a longer timescale, Ireland, as a member of the EU, has lately seen a reversal of the diaspora for the first time in generations - former Irish immigrants are coming home.
How can we know what the Belarussian (sp?) people really want? It’s been a de facto dictatorship (even more so than Russia) ever since the USSR broke up.
Of course he is, speaking as a private individual; I just had the impression that there’s the functionary of a religious organization trying to influence secular politics, which doesn’t appeal to me too much.
Yes it does. You gotta stop somewhere. And large part of Turkey is simply not European by and definition or stretch of the imagination.
I don’t know. There’s this: Article 49 TEU
“Any European nation which uphold the principles of article 6, point 1 can apply for membership of the union.”
However, any enlargement, European or otherwise, requires a new treaty that has to be unanimously agreed upon by all existing member states. Such a new treaty could just change the above article as well. It’s a political not juridical matter. It would be silly to call it The European Union if it hasn’t anything to do with Europe. I guess the name could be changed to WU, but then it would be the EU anymore.
Incidentally Morocco has once before during the eighties when Denmark had the seat enquired how they could get a membership of the EU. The answer was then that they couldn’t because they weren’t European.
I do accept the western parts of Turkey to be European, mostly due to their Greek history (& even though they pretty much ethnic cleansed the Greeks). Istanbul (Byzantine/Constantinople/Mikkelgård), and the Mediterranean coast. However the eastern parts of Turkey really have nothing to do with Europe.
According to the polls, a large majority of EU citizens are opposed to admitting Turkey. Especially Austria seems pretty much dead set against it – perhaps understandable given their history – they’re now pressing hard for a general referendum. France is also set for a referendum I think. A referendum is a great idea. Let the people decide.
Are you trying to sneak in a world government through the back door? Your leftist European comrades aren’t in agreement though. Traditionally (here), the further to the left the more fervent anti-EU they were (capitalist trash! – and even as the impoverished eastern European countries were on their knees to get in, go figure). However, in recent years those left leaning parties have pretty much turned on a plate. They now envision an EU that can forcefully oppose the US; politically, morally, even by military. Anyway you can’t get in. Bush is in violation of several EU charters.
I always did wonder why Israel got to participate in the Eurovision. They even won once when I was a kid. A song about Peace or something, a women in a long white dress and a lot of candlelights. A few years ago the official Norwegian commentator expressed his hopes the Israelis didn’t win on account of their troublesome conduct. Pretty snarky, pissed the Israelis off to no end. Of course the Norwegians themselves have some real problems with the Eurovision. One year they got zero points. They’re still struggling to get over that blow to their battered self-confidence.
Fewer eastern Europeans have sought employment in the “old” EU, than “old” Europeans have gone the other way. Of course there are those idiotic transition limitations. Still. On the other hand, a recent survey revealed a staggering percentage (40%?) of Turks would want to immigrate to the EU if they could.
I don’t think separation of church and state means church officials are not supposed to voice their opinion or lobby their case, same as every other organization.
It’s painting with a really broad brush of stereotypes, but Turkey is essentially two countries: The area around Istanbul and the Med, about a third of the population live in this area. Though muslim in name, they are fairly secularised, well educated and fairly occidental in their outlook. Integrating these people in the EU would not be a bigger problem than hadnling Romania or Bulgaria.
But the rest… The situation with the Kurds (roughly a quarter of the total population), a stronger religeous way of life, more illiteracy. This is not an ethnic slur on my part, but rather a criticism of the politics of Turkey - simple, the eastern part is more than backwards. It’s like the mountains of Iraq, whichg BTW is a bordering country.
And that’s another thing: Does the EU want to have external borders with: Azerbaijan, Iran, Iraq and Syria? Not the way things are looking right now. I can understand why GWB wants Tukey to be a memeber - it would be a very big stabilizing factor in the region, but would bring many, many problems to our doorsteps.
It’s about the same distance to Istanbul as it is to Madrid from my hometown, but in many ways, it feels twice as long. I don’t have a problem with Turkey joining, but I don’t think it’ll depend on Turkey, rather how the region in itself developes. Should the American efforts in Iraq really bring democracy to that country (I doubt it, but time will tell), while Iran slowly is getting more and more open by its own accord, and if the situation in Israel defuses (better chances now with Arqafat dead), then, by 2015, I think it could work and actually be beneficial to the rest of Europe
There are many caveats down the line though, so I’m either holding my breath in anticipation, nor fear.
This statistic is completely pointless. The ‘if they could’ caveat means that you’re dealing with people’s dreams, not their practical ambitions.
A year ago, weren’t we supposed to be fearing an invasion of jobseekers from the 10 new members? The right-wing press said so. Surprise surprise, it didn’t materialise.
Your imagination, maybe. I have no problem seeing Turkey as European. (Far less so than trying to argue it has particularly Asian qualities.)
Given that the security of such borders is of huge concern for our own security, it seems to me far better to have a thoroughly legitimate and democratic control of them, than the opaque way that some of Afghanistan’s borders have been dealt with (I’m thinking Uzbekistan in particular).
That’s meaningless as an argument. Where I’m sat is closer to Holland than it is to Birmingham. I know where I’d feel more ‘at home’.
