The Massacgusetts Transist Authority (MBTA) has just cancelled its order with Beretta SPA of iIaly. It seems that all of the 35 streetcars purchased from that firm are defective-the air conditioners don’t work, the automatic braking systems don’t work, the signals don’t work, and the cars derail at 10 times the frequency of the old Boeing-Vertol cars now in use.
I was intrigued by this because there are only a handful of companies who build streetcars today…and the beretta bid was accpeted as the best of the lot!
Now, last year in San Francisco i saw 70 year old “president Car” streetcars in use-these were purchased from Boston and rebuilt! Why can a 70 year old design work so much better than the latest and greatest? Are streetcars all that difficult to design and build?
Oh, Boston is refusing payment on the rest of the order-so this thing willbe litigated in court, and a caost of MORE millions of taxpayer money!
Why don’t they just COPY the old streetcar design?
How’s the beers?*
- snide comment, meant to be humorous, refers to spelling only, and should not be applied to the content or subject matter of the OP.
Well, it sounds like Boston got a duff batch.
You’re surprised that only ‘a handful’ of companies build them nowadays - but that’s the same as with trains, commericial aircraft, etc. However, new trams are constantly being turned out all across Europe, very successfully.
Perhaps there were greater difficulties adapting to what was probably a quite different system in Boston than the company had built for before - I can imagine that electrics, signalling etc will all have needed designing from scratch rather than using an ‘off the shelf’ design.
Why not copy the old design? Well, apart from there being no reason to have expected new ones to cause the problems that have occurred, old designs may have poorer safety features (internal structure for safety of passengers, strength of the body as a whole, stopping distances, etc etc). Plus, new designs can accomodate wheelchairs and other mobility problems more easily.
I rode these cars frequently in a large mid west city when they were first introduced.
They could accelerate and decelerate FAST enough to throw strap hangers and those holding on to seat handles to the floor if the motorman was the least bit careless.
Only problem I can recall was when a gasoline truck hit a pair running tandem and caused a fire and IIRC some passenger lives.
The builders can include design charges too if they do a redesign.
Here in Tampa we recently got a new streetcar line (only about a mile long, for now – it runs between the convention center, downtown, and Ybor City, the main bars-and-entertainment district; future expansion is planned). The streetcars are deliberate copies of those used in the old city system that was dismantled in the 1950s. The cars were made by the Gomaco Trolley Company – http://www.gomacotrolley.com/Resources/workinprogress.html. You can see them here: http://www.davidpinero.com/rail/tecoline.cfm And here: http://www.tecolinestreetcar.org/ They’re nice-looking and they run just fine – but they’re a little cramped and narrow; I once rode a streetcar in New Orleans (http://www.atneworleans.com/body/streetcars.htm) that was much roomier, more like a modern city bus.
Yup, Dublin just got the fabulous Luas tram in the past few months, and it’s incredibly high tech. And any problems so far have been driver error (occasionally tram driver, but mostly idiot car drivers).
That looks like light rail – not the same thing as streetcars; light rail systems are faster and generally don’t run on the same streets as automobiles use. Here in Tampa we have a plan (indefinitely delayed, because of opposition by anti-taxers) in the works to build a light rail system in addition to the streetcars. It would run mostly along an abandoned heavy-rail track. See http://www.blueheronmedia.com/tampa_rail_web/index.htm
In Dublin??? GASP 
The boundaries between trams and light rail have been blurred in Europe. Many lines, particularly those in Britain, are being built on old rail route where available, and as tram/streetcar systems in city centres (often sharing lanes with buses but not regular traffic for any great length, purely to avoid congestion). And I believe somewhere in Germany (possible Munich) has a completely integrated train/light rail/tram concept, which can run on regular railways and on street tracks. But much of the mechanics is the same, whether it’s a tram or light rail.
No, the Luas is 100% a streetcar/tram, not a light rail system.
A big chunk of the Sandyford line is on old an old railway routes, and so really fits the ‘light rail’ category along with the Manchester Metrolink or the DLR.
That’s not necessarily true. I guess it all depends on what your definition of the distinction of “light rail” and streetcars. In Europe, most of the time these light rail cars usually drive on the streets in a city center with signals integrated into the current traffic system. They can stop on a dime for pedestrians, cars, etc. The only difference, I can see would be that they can also go quite fast and are a little longer. Amsterdam has an extensive network of these trams and it makes me think that it wouldn’t be any different in any American city. The difference could be, however, that these new trams might require new lines. I know the ones in Europe usually have poles with wires suspended between them. The wires have smaller wires hanging down to suspend the electrified wire in the same way a suspension bridge does. I know from seeing the New Orleans streetcars that they dont’ have that. I would guess that it would only affect the speed of the tram on the old lines though.
My hometown of Dayton Ohio upgraded their electric buses through a joint venture between a Czech Republic bus company and a US defense contractor. They had some bugs to work out but it wasn’t rocket science.
There is no reason for any company to deliver a bus that doesn’t work. We’re talking about a frame, some wheels a motor and some seats. The same air conditioner that’s in every other bus on the planet will work with an electric motor. Again, not rocket science.
A little trivia, when the electric buses first entered service they were faster than any cars of their day (1933). It wasn’t until the Oldsmobile “rocket V8” that a car could outrun one. A sign of the times I guess. Oldsmobile is mobile no more.
Gorillaman is right, especially about the need to accommodate persons with disabilities. I rode the old Presidential Conference Committee (PCC) cars in Boston for several years, to/from college and work, often standing a.h.-to-bellybutton with complete strangers (strangers at least until the ride was over). Mostly between Haymarket Sq. to Huntingon Ave, with change at Park St. and/or Copley.
I wonder how SF could upgrade them and still make them disability-accessible. They had 3 steps to a “high” floor. I’ve written specs for a small fleet of buses since then and most such vehicles now have to go to “low-floor” design or have lifts to handle wheelchairs, etc. Your OP said the Berettas were “the best of the lot”. Are you sure, or were they the lowest bidder that (supposedly) met the specs? High-tech? One make of buses, several years ago, had something like 6,000 IIRC moving parts for the door mechanism.
Ah, the good old reliable Boeing cars … You must be a young whippersnapper, Ralph. When the Boeings were brought in, they went through exactly the same kinds of problems, exactly the same bad press, exactly the same removals of service and cancellations of deliveries as Beretta did. In fact, they were even worse, now that I think of it. The problems all got worked out, and the Berettas are getting theirs worked out too.
Tram = Light Rail as far as the vehicles are concerned. It’s the route that dictates what is what, and even then the distinction is blurred. Here in Sydney and also in Melbourne you can get on a tram and trundle through the car traffic on busy city streets, squeal around ninety degree corners at intersections, etc, and then you suddenly find yourself on dedicated right of way (looking for all the world like a railway line - and in fact it once was), and you’re hooning along at 50mph just as though you were in a train.
I have a bit of a “thing” for early twentieth century electric rail traction, and those babies will go forever with proper maintenance. One of my favourite tram stories was related by a tram driver on a rail forum I visit. He was driving a sixty year-old W class tram in Melbourne very, very late at night. He was stopped at a red light, and noticed that the only other vehicle on the entire road was a hotted up Commodore (large, powerful Australian GM sedan) sitting nexrt to the tram at the stop lights. The trammie looked in his mirror, saw he had no passengers, told the conductor to hold on, notched the throttle right up, and held the brakes on. The light flipped green, and he pulled the brakes off, fair launching his tram forwards like a rocket. When the hot (fifty years newer) car caught up at the next lights, its young driver had a look of “disbelief tinged with respect”.
Unfortunately, they don’t provide modern levels of safety, comfort, and access. They are also noisy. I find the noise beautiful, but the usual killjoys complain.
Moderator’s Note: Ding, ding! Next stop…IMHO!
Same in Toronto. Many of the Toronto tram routes are the original ones on the original streets with the original weird track guage dating back to god-knows-when. There has been a slow move towards building separate right-of-ways for trams (“streetcars” in Toronto) in streets wide enough to contain them, but then again they just rebuilt the College Street tracks for on-street running.
Thanks for the replies…anyway, I am struck by how screwed up these hi-tech Beretta streetcars are! It should be possible (in AD 2004) to build something this simple, minus all of those bugs. Especially when SF is running 70 year old streetcars (purchased from Boston!), with such success!
Regarding Beretta-I’ve heard that this company has a recent hoistory of shoddy work-they (Beretta) were selected to supply the NATO standard issue military 9 MM Pistol (replacing the old American design). The pistols made by beretta have all kinds of problems.
Anyway, Boston is still running the old President -design streetcars, the old Boeing-Vertol artculated ones, and sme japanese-made ones. The Beretta disaster will have national repercussions, because most of the funding is coming from the US Govt…why they awarded such a major contract to a foreign manufacturer (with a dubious quality record) is beyond me.
I’m pretty sure the “Japanese-made” cars were manufactured by Bombardier in Montreal, to a Kawasaki design already proven out in Asia (it was cheaper to do it that way). I don’t recall seeing a PCC car on the tracks in Boston in recent years, though - are you sure?
I think some of the Boeing(?) cars were refitted by ‘Kinki’ (he he). At least most of the Green line trolleys have a ‘Kinki’ manufacturer’s plaque in them.
They aren’t pulling the Italian trolleys they already have out of service, but they won’t take any more. They’ve had to fix everything on them, and still they break down and delay service on the whole branch while they move them out of the way.
Things with the T are looking worse and worse lately. I doubt we’ll ever see the various subway extensions that supposedly were part of the Big Dig, but of course they did all the commuter rail projects for the suburbanites. Those of us who actually live in Boston and the closest suburbs can get by with more inconvenient buses and the glorified bus that is the Silver Line.