UK dopers (or anyone else) - do you find the Union Jack inoffensive?

In My Humble Opinion
1

I am rather interested in opinions here, but I suppose it’s more of a poll.

Inspired, obviously, by this thread.

I was more than a little surprised to see how many Americans found the confederate flag offensive. As a UK chap not entirely up on things American, it only ever made me think “Dukes of Hazzard” - maybe with added vague undertones of “don’t the klan come from there or something”? However it seems clear that many Americans find the flag positively repugnant.

Now, America, I have heard, is a flag sort of a place. People have flags there. They hang them out of windows and put them on their garages. I can’t tell you how fascinated and confused my anthropology lecturer was when she first went over there to teach. She simply couldn’t understand why anyone would have a flag on their garage. It may be that you’re rather prouder of your country than we are, and if you are, well, that’s probably healthy.

I wondered aloud then, and I wonder it now, whether the reason behind my lecturer’s bemusement is that you don’t see a great many Union Jacks flying over British garages. Clearly if I flew one over my house in Scotland I’d probably get a brick through the window. And yet I consider myself British, unlike many of my compatriots - but I wouldn’t fly it ANYway, it would feel COMPLETELY inappropriate. Even the Conservative Party, when it campaigns in Scotland, uses the Scottish flag instead. There is never any hint of red white and blue (they wouldn’t dare, admittedly).

I imagine things are quite similar in Ireland and Wales, for reasons you can perhaps guess. Maybe in Ireland some places fly the British flag proudly, I don’t know.

Anyhoo. Even as a Britisher, I would never dream of flying a Union Jack, even if I lived in London. My reasons are as follows:

  1. everybody knows this is Britain, it’s not like it needs pointing out
  2. the only people I have ever seen using the Union Jack extensively are far-right fascist groups like Combat 18. I might be wrong about the mainstream political parties but I’ve only ever seen the tories use it, and then moderately. New Labour have probably used it a bit since they got into power, but again, I doubt they’d try it in Easterhouse.
  3. We don’t have a “British” football squad or anything, so the racist thugs who make up a small percentage of the fanbase in this country always use the English flag. Or, y’know, the Scottish one, or whatever.
  4. I’m not proud of it but if I see an England flag hanging from a window, I think “is there a football match on?” and then I think “far-right nutter”. I do not think “proud of his country”. If I saw a union jack hanging from a window, I’d get nervous. Seriously. I’d think “something’s about to kick off here”. Unless it was Buckingham Palace I suppose.
  5. Johnny Rotten once got arrested for hanging an Italian flag in his window because he didn’t have any curtains. The police thought he might be in the IRA or something. This is nothing to do with the rest of the list, but it’s a great story.
  6. the Union Jack is an even worse design than the stars and stripes.
  7. everybody seems to identify so strongly by their particular bit of the Union (Scotland, Wales, whatever) that the Union Jack just feels spectacularly out -of-date. I’m pretty sure I get a mild undertone of “empire” whenever I see it.

And this is all coming from someone who just IS British. Perfectly happy to have an independent Scotland and all that, if that’s what everybody wants, but I just THINK British.

So what do you think? Symbol of hate? Symbol of love? Or forever tarnished by its association with Geri Halliwell?

2

Our Olyimpic champions seem to like it. I like the design of it, and I own one, but like you say I see absolutely no reason to hang it on a flagpole outside my house or my garage or anything.

3

When you compare it to the really basic flags most nations use I mean.

But it’s not as good as this flag which I’ve developed a small attachment to for some reason.

4

Personally, I think the Union Jack is much more attractive than the American flag.

I do not find it offensive. My only strong association with it other than “That’s the British flag” is that The Who often made use of a Union Jack motif in their promotional material. And Pete Townshend had a pretty awesome Union Jack jacket back in the mid-60s.

5

It’s mostly inoffensive, yes.

The only thing I dislike about it is its incorporation into so many of its former colonies’ own flags, like Australia’s. *That *is offensive. To the eye only though.

6

I wouldn’t be caught dead flying the Union Jack - I have a little Manx flag that I normally bring out on our national day but quite a lot of people do that on that day (5th July) here anyway…

I wouldn’t have it on a large flagpole outside my house everyday though - Probably get someone trying to burn it every weekend after a night out :slight_smile:

7

Oh, I think there are places you might find some people very pleased about it, but then again, they might happen to be people with dodgy views, and they might happen to be football people…

Yes, its assocations are not very good.

I like the Johnny Rotten story, though. Ye gods - how did these policemen ever manage if they went to a pizza restaurant? :dubious:

Not at all much now, but when I was younger, there was a tiresome habit of the Union Flag being used to represent “England”. It’s good that we hardly see that any more.

8

Er, hello there fella!
The IOM has quite a lot of houses (and shops) bearing the manx flag.

9

Have you or your anthro teacher ever been to Denmark, especially in the summer? Flags (not American ones) festooned everywhere, hung up in the streets, and stuck on birthday cakes at all times of the year. I’ve seen 'em strung on Christmas trees. They’re happy and celebratory.

No, I do not find the Union Jack offensive–except for that one time Morrissey wrapped himeself in one for some xenophobic reason–though it does mostly make me think of Horatio Hornblower and “Hail Brittania.” I guess I read too much.

10

American here.

My strongest mental associations with the Union Jack are:
[ul]
[li]The British Empire, as the OP mentions. I picture Michael Caine and company holding down the fort in Zulu. Stiff upper lip and all that. There’s a good chap. After the Zulus, time to go give Jerry a good thrashing.[/li][li]James Bond movies, as when he skis off a cliff and opens a parachute decorated as the Union Jack. Also, wasn’t there a Bond girl wearing Union Jack underwear or something during the opening credits?[/li][/ul]

So, maybe not the most noble associations in my mind — but hey, not too shabby either, all things considered.

In American stores, British imports often have labels and packaging styled with the Union Jack. No surprise there I suppose. To many customers this means nothing, but I think the companies know that for many others that flag adds a bit of subliminal prestige. Particularly for products that Britain is “known” for, like tea, cookies (biscuits), and rain-wear.

Oh yes. And then there’s the doofus in my former neighborhood with a large U.S. flag mounted on his SUV roof, the pole sticking straight up about four feet from the top, the huge Stars & Stripes rippling backward in the breeze as the car advances … on the Safeway, one assumes. He drives past and you think the cavalry must have arrived. The 83rd Doofus Cavalry, that is.

Also in my old neighborhood, one of the houses I passed on my walks had both an American and Canadian flag hanging over the front stoop. A mixed marriage, I always thought, though I never met the people living there to learn the exotic details. Where did they meet? Could they communicate well enough?

11

I’m confused. American and confused. (Ok, i’ll wait till you finish making the obvious jokes :D). What would be offensive about the Union Jack? It’s a combination of the three flags of the countries in the union (though not Wales? Is that part of what would make it offensive?) Seems pretty egalitarian to me. I guess those who are opposed to the whole union thing…like the Irish Catholics…would be opposed to it. But who else?

Empire? It’s just the Commonwealth innit? Is the Commonwealth in that bad shape?

12

[Obligatory SDMB nitpick] It’s not the Union Jack unless it’s a ship’s ensign. It’s the Union Flag in any other context. [/OSDMBN]

As a Britisher I am very antipathetic towards “my” flag.

I’m pretty antipathetic towards all flag-waving to be honest, even in my current adopted home, where the Irish tricolour is fairly ubiquitous - though not quite verging on American flag hysteria (the bizarre respect for the object - ‘don’t let it touch the ground’ and all that nonsense - is non-existent here).

I don’t find it offensive in itself, though I do realise that many who use it in the context of the UK are way more nationalistic than I’d personally like. Indeed, I would view someone flying it in their garden or from their window in the UK as odd, and even slightly worrying. However as a symbol for use overseas, I don’t really see the harm.

Also, I appreciate that in the context of Ireland, the Union Flag is seen by many as terribly offensive. I remember being slightly weirded out walking past the set of the BBC’s drama series The Ambassador in the middle of Dublin, which had a huge Union Flag hanging out the window of a Georgian terrace, because such a thing is so unusual. I have a Republican friend from Northern Ireland who calls it “the butcher’s apron”. The flying of flags in Northern Ireland is terribly important, and I dislike overt Loyalism as I do overt Republicanism, and both are represented by one flag or the other. I’d rather not get involved in such symbolism.

13

I feel no affinity for the Union Flag (c’mon folks, get the terminology right - fighting ignorance and all that). So for that reason, I find it hard to take personal offence. I have a far more passionate dislike of the unilateral appropriation of the English flag, as described in the OP.

A lot of Welsh and Scots, for beginners. And Wales isn’t represented because it had already been conquered by England before the creation of the flag, which is a further reminder of the histories which play so strongly into people’s emotions. To many, it’s not a symbol of equality, but of the power and control exerted by England over the centuries.

That’s their own choice, being former colonies n’all…

14

Inoffensive?!? Absolutely not - not to this American! It reminds me of taxation without representation, forced labor, late tea shipments and…

Nope, sorry, can’t get worked up about it no matter how hard I try. I once had a pair of socks in the Union Jack motif. They were a gift from my uncle upon his return from London. Those and a pair of briefs wich featured a picture of a squirrel and the caption “Watch your nuts!”. That’s pretty much what I think about when I see the Union Jack. I’ll leave the reader to ponder the offensiveness of that.

15

The Union Jack reminds me primarily of the lead singer of Def Leppard.

16

Indeed; I didn’t say or imply otherwise.

17

Most people/brits, unless I am mistaken, have adopted the name ‘Union Jack’ for the national flag. Isn’t it reasonable to accept that name even if historically it belonged to something more specific?

18

Lobsang or Furry Mongoose, what is the Manx flag – the triskelion? (That’s the three-kneed thingummy that’s a Manx national symbol, for those who didn’t know.)

19

Although my country is not represented on the Union Flag I like its classic lines. I’d never dream of buying and displaying it though.
I like my own countries’ flag too. It just shows how easily I’m pleased.
Welsh Flag

20

I don’t know if the triskelion is the official flag, but I haven’t seen anything else flying other than known Euro and British flags. So I can only assume it is.