What went wrong with Black Americans?

[Splanky]

In 2002, between 23.9 percent to 24.1 percent of blacks were in poverty, up from 22.7% in 2001. This is compared to the national average of 12.1 percent, up from 11.7%. Link

Blacks have a considerably higher incarceration rate than Hispanics and Whites. In 2003 748 of 100,000 blacks were incarcerated. This is almost more than the amount of Whites and Hispanics combined. The trend seems to hold through 1990, but the rate for Blacks seems to be increasing while the other two races/ethnicities are remaining relatively constant. Link Graph

A survey of 29 major U.S. cities in 1996 showed that 57% of the urban homeless are Black. Link

38% of Americans diagnosed with AIDS are black. Link



These statistics certainly must mean something. Considering that only 13% of the population is Black, why is it that Blacks are disproportionately "lagging behind?"

(Note that I largely agree with the "race is a myth" idea. There isn't much distinguishing me, a Jewish white guy from Maryland, from a black guy from Alabama. I think a social phenomenom is the culprit, not scientific.)

[Kimstu]

Splanky: (Note that I largely agree with the "race is a myth" idea. There isn't much distinguishing me, a Jewish white guy from Maryland, from a black guy from Alabama. I think a social phenomenom is the culprit, not scientific.)

I agree, and we have to remember that the "social phenomenon" or "social construct" of race in this (US) society has for centuries included the systematic oppression and disfranchisement of people identified as belonging to the "black race". It's been less than 50 years since many forms of legal discrimination against black Americans were outlawed, and illegal discrimination and racism still persist.

Under those circumstances, should it really surprise you that black Americans are disproportionately poor, diseased, and incarcerated? Now, the legacy of racial discrimination against blacks is certainly not the only factor involved here, but I think it would be hard to deny that it's had a powerful impact.

[Demorian]

A circular pattern of lower income, ghettoization, and worse education.

[XT]

IMO the black community as a whole bought into the various myths propagated about them. The biggest is that they CAN'T do the same work as whites, that they somehow aren't as good, or that they just never get the chance. The blacks I know personally and professionally basically said (or their folks said) in essence...FUCK THAT! They went out and did it on their own and told both the white world and their own communities to kiss their ass. Most of them have nothing but scorn to throw at their own 'black leaders' like Jesse Jackson and company...and the same scorn to throw at most of the liberals as well with the same mantra. A lot of my black friends are WAY conservative because of this in fact...they make me look like a flower toting liberal.

The other big thing I think (again, this is second hand just from discussions over beers with friends who are black) is there there really is no Black Community. There is no sense of blacks bonding to other blacks outside their own families. If you look at other minorities that are successful in the US you will see that many of them have a huge 'network' behind them...they are close nit and they help each other out, not based on family but on their 'race'. Even hispanics have this, though to a lesser degree than some others. The blacks for various reasons don't seem to have this identity with their community in a positive way unfortunately. At least, again, not acording to my own friends who are black.

-XT

[Ravenman]

I'm not trying to trap you in your answers, but these parts BEG for more explaination. I'm really not sure I get what you're saying.

Originally Posted by xtisme

IMO the black community as a whole bought into the various myths propagated about them....They went out and did it on their own and told both the white world and their own communities to kiss their ass.

So, the poverty, crime, and homeless rates among black people are the fault of individual black people because they aren't trying hard enough? Do you believe that there are certain barriers to the distressed black Americans acheiving success, or are the barriers to success the same for white, black, and Asian people?

If you look at other minorities that are successful in the US you will see that many of them have a huge 'network' behind them...they are close nit and they help each other out, not based on family but on their 'race'.

Do white people have a network behind them that helps them succeed? If not, why is having a network necessary for minorities, but not for white people?

Again, I'm not trying to corner you, but your statements could use a bit of explanation before I really get them.

[Splanky]

xtisme brought up something I forgot to add- How much of the blacks' situation is their own fault? Should they be doing more to try an better themselves? Bill Cosby has been castigated recently for criticizing blacks for not taking responsibility for his people's shortcomings. A lot of blacks-- prominent and not-- were very angry about his statements, though many people think he's right.

[Demorian]

Originally Posted by xtisme

The other big thing I think (again, this is second hand just from discussions over beers with friends who are black) is there there really is no Black Community. There is no sense of blacks bonding to other blacks outside their own families.

I'm seriously at a loss hearing that. Where do you live?

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by xtisme

A lot of my black friends are WAY conservative because of this in fact...

I don't have to pretend to be surprised by this, right?

[Kimstu]

Splanky: xtisme brought up something I forgot to add- How much of the blacks' situation is their own fault?

Lucky he reminded you, eh?

Should they be doing more to try an better themselves?

Well, I think we can all agree that everybody should be doing more to try and better themselves, can't we? There's room for improvement everywhere, and people who have been systematically disadvantaged are not exempt from the responsibility to put their own efforts into improving their own situation.

Does that mean that blacks are only or mostly responsible for their current disadvantaged situation? I doubt it. If Asians or Jews or Irish had been sold into slavery and kept as illiterate chattel laborers in this country for centuries, followed by another century of systematic discrimination and repression including formal segregation and frequent lynchings, I expect those groups would be disproportionately poor, diseased, and incarcerated too.

[Rashak Mani]

In Brazil we have a similar problem... and I think its basically educational and racism.

Education isn't only what you get in school though. If your parents are dumb and uneducated they tend to push you down. You don't see people reading books at home... you tend not to read books either. Your friends and your "environment" can push you down in the same way.

Racism... in the Brazilian Civil service you only get a job by passing some hard selections based on tests. (no interviews). The number of employed blacks in the civil service is higher than in other high level jobs with similar requirements. The only possible conclusion is that something is stopping them from getting those other job positions: Racism.

[aahala]

Originally Posted by Splanky

Link

Blacks have a considerably higher incarceration rate than Hispanics and Whites. In 2003 748 of 100,000 blacks were incarcerated. This is almost more than the amount of Whites and Hispanics combined. The trend seems to hold through 1990, but the rate for Blacks seems to be increasing while the other two races/ethnicities are remaining relatively constant. Link Graph

Over what time period are you talking about? I'm getting a much greater growth rate from 1990 to 2003 for whites than for blacks. What did I do wrong?

[XT]

Originally Posted by Ravenman

So, the poverty, crime, and homeless rates among black people are the fault of individual black people because they aren't trying hard enough? Do you believe that there are certain barriers to the distressed black Americans acheiving success, or are the barriers to success the same for white, black, and Asian people?

Not at all...I think they are symptoms of a deeper problem though as I said. Its a community problem, and its individuals who are able to throw off the myths associated with their 'race' and rise above it.

I don't believe that there are any more external barriers to black success than to any other minority in this country today, no. I believe that its a catch 22 for the blacks especially...a vicious cycle of reinforced poverty for a large percentage of their community.

Originally Posted by Ravenman

Do white people have a network behind them that helps them succeed? If not, why is having a network necessary for minorities, but not for white people?

I think 'white people' is too large a target. No, there probably isn't any 'white people' networks. But there are certainly German, Greek, Italian, British, Polish, etc etc networks out there. I'm surprised you even have to ask this. So that makes the rest moot IMO.

Originally Posted by Ravenman

Again, I'm not trying to corner you, but your statements could use a bit of explanation before I really get them.

No worries.

Originally Posted by Marley23

I don't have to pretend to be surprised by this, right?

You tell me. I suppose you consider me a conservative as well so...

-XT

[Demorian]

Originally Posted by xtisme

The other big thing I think (again, this is second hand just from discussions over beers with friends who are black) is there there really is no Black Community. There is no sense of blacks bonding to other blacks outside their own families.

OK, I'm going to reply to this without clarification from you because I have to leave for a few hours, so I apologize if I misread this...

But I've lived in Los Angeles, Oakland, San Francisco, New York, Charlottesville, for a short time at Havasu (AZ), plus some time in D.C. Based simply on my personal observations (going against your personal observations, as you noted), black communities are very strongly entrenched. LA, Oakland, and NY all have very distinct black neighborhoods with strong communities based around them. There are activist groups both within and outside of these communities trying to make life better for other blacks (on that note, I do agree with the others that there is some degree of lack of goals, I guess, within the black communities, which I attribute to low standards, poor education, and increased poverty, which, as I said, are circular. It is well worth noting that college-educated blacks often look down on the rest of the community for this lack of action, and are sometimes embarassed to be associated with them. I take it that these are the types of friends you have, xtisme). I summarized this up in my first post to this thread as "ghettoization" (though that can not be a sole attribute, as other minorities are ghettoized but are more successful), and it is directly related, at least given my experiences here in California, to poor urban school quality. It is a vicious circle that most can not escape.

Another piece of the puzzle is crime. In many of these urban areas, it is far, far easier for young people to make a living via crime than "honest work." Without being exposed to better education and not being given the chance, they start at a young age and get dragged into the system.

This is why I am against things like affirmative action. I think the change that needs to take place isn't putting more into college, but rather at bettering their childhood years, mainly through improvements to the education systems in urban areas. My hypothesis is that better exposure to this will lead to increased college enrollment. I see affirmative action as a fly in the ointment that alienates whites from the idea of investing in their education. It tries to treat the symptom, not the disease.

I base the above, as I say, on my personal experiences in the educational world. You can see similar things with other minority groups - in Los Angeles and the San Francisco area and New York, there are hispanic ghettos with similarly suffering schools. Some of it is really ghastly, compared to the average white suburban kid's exposure to learning, especially at very young ages.

The dillema of minorites is strongly reflected in the military; a disproportionate amount of blacks and hispanics enter military service at age 18, because they aren't going to college and don't have many better opportunities. I can't dig up any cites (this post is already making me late for an appointment), but a quick cite, if you'll recall F-9/11's quick glimpse of Moore's hometown, dilapidated, with a heavy percentage of the youths enrolled in the military. That is very common across the country, be it urban Los Angeles or small towns in Michigan.

[Demorian]

Originally Posted by Demorian

I can't dig up any cites (this post is already making me late for an appointment), but a quick cite, if you'll recall F-9/11's quick glimpse of Moore's hometown, dilapidated, with a heavy percentage of the youths enrolled in the military. That is very common across the country, be it urban Los Angeles or small towns in Michigan.

* As a side note to this part, also recall that white kids in the same situations end up in similar places. It isn't anything "racial" - it is social and economic. The fact is, it is damn hard to "pull yourself up by the bootstraps." You have to have a strong will, support, and opportunity in order to do it. Lacking one of those things early on, you fall back down into the black hole of poverty.

[foolsguinea]

Well, a lot of it's the embrace of crime & rejection of civil society as "white" & "oppressive."

The perception of Blacks as uncivilizable, stupid, ignorant, criminal, & generally inferior became internalized by Blacks themselves. It's probably sociologically worse in the North, where the very way a black man speaks marks him as "stupid" (whites with Southern accents get this, too). Until now many urban black youth don't even try to be educated or honorable. They've accepted their "subhuman" or at least inhuman status.

Pity.

There's probably a cool comparison to be done with Sicilian attitudes toward Italian government & society vs. the Mafia.

[brickbacon]

Originally Posted by xtisme

IMO the black community as a whole bought into the various myths propagated about them. The biggest is that they CAN'T do the same work as whites, that they somehow aren't as good, or that they just never get the chance. The blacks I know personally and professionally basically said (or their folks said) in essence...FUCK THAT! They went out and did it on their own and told both the white world and their own communities to kiss their ass. Most of them have nothing but scorn to throw at their own 'black leaders' like Jesse Jackson and company...and the same scorn to throw at most of the liberals as well with the same mantra. A lot of my black friends are WAY conservative because of this in fact...they make me look like a flower toting liberal.

The other big thing I think (again, this is second hand just from discussions over beers with friends who are black) is there there really is no Black Community. There is no sense of blacks bonding to other blacks outside their own families. If you look at other minorities that are successful in the US you will see that many of them have a huge 'network' behind them...they are close nit and they help each other out, not based on family but on their 'race'. Even hispanics have this, though to a lesser degree than some others. The blacks for various reasons don't seem to have this identity with their community in a positive way unfortunately. At least, again, not acording to my own friends who are black.

-XT

I am black, and I tend to agree with a lot of this (although it hasn't made me conservative). I think many black people have just grown tired of trying to play in a rigged game. I think it has gotten worse because many young people grew up in a world that preached equality, but often did not practice it. My parents never had the expectation that they could work as hard as the white guy down the street and get as far. I think most people, of all races, think they can. When they finally figure out that life isn't the peach that it is made out to be, they become angry, hopeless, and disillusioned.

As an aside, my parents' generation made a Faustian bargain with white America ~40 years ago. They felt that integration was a more noble and realistic goal than isolation. I think they did so with the hope that white America would, with time, accept them as equals. That, to this day, has not happened. Other cultures took a more multi-faceted approach, by enjoying the freedoms blacks fought for, and maintaining their own cultural identity/isolation.

What has happened is that many of the more capable blacks have moved to the suburbs, and have ignored all ties they had to the black communities they left. It is similar to the brain drain that many Asian countries have experienced. What has also happened is that the overt racism faced by the Black Americans of the 50's is gone. As terrible as all of that was, it was a binding force amongst blanks, and many whites. It was something undeniable that blacks could point to as a clear sign of racism. The more subtle racism becomes, the harder it is to identify and articulate it to others. The problem is that it is no less vehement than it was back then.

I had a few other things to say but I have an appointent to keep so I will finish later.

[Stuffy]

Originally Posted by Splanky

In 2002, between 23.9 percent to 24.1 percent of blacks were in poverty, up from 22.7% in 2001. This is compared to the national average of 12.1 percent, up from 11.7%. Link

A part of this stems form the way our economic cycles. During Booms periods more black people get jobs, when the boom busts Last Hired first fired kicks in and Presto more blacks unemployed. See my next point for addtional information.

Blacks have a considerably higher incarceration rate than Hispanics and Whites. In 2003 748 of 100,000 blacks were incarcerated. This is almost more than the amount of Whites and Hispanics combined. The trend seems to hold through 1990, but the rate for Blacks seems to be increasing while the other two races/ethnicities are remaining relatively constant. Link Graph

Simple, Black people are paying for America's drug problem. The hugest boost in Criminality of Black people is due to the drug trade. They aren't selling exclusively or mostly to blacks but to white people. Find any urban center and you get open air drug dealing. These people enter the Criminal Justice System and effectively become permanetlly a underclass, being mostly unemployable/underemployable due to the Felon stigma.

A survey of 29 major U.S. cities in 1996 showed that 57% of the urban homeless are Black. Link [/url]

No surprise here, more black poor = more black homeless. You also have to factor in the barriers to mental health and substance abuse treatment (the overwhelming majority of homeless) and you get statistics like this.

38% of Americans diagnosed with AIDS are black. Link

Cultural conservstism, turning around and biting us in the ass. For a long time, Church was the only place blacks could gather and it remains central in the black community (why do you think pols always go to church to see us black folk). Homophobia in the black commuinty is much more pervasive than it is in America at large. So enters the phenomenon know as the "Down Low" these are black men either Bi or in denial about there sexuality. These guys are married or settled with women but having trysts with other guys on the QT. The majority of Black women contracting AIDS got it through heterosexual intercourse. Guess with who?

In some ways even Welfare has contributed to the problems in the Black Communities. I'm probably going to catch some grief for my next comment but here goes: Welfare has made it easier for Black men to duck their responsibilites as Fathers. We have entirely too many blacks kids with no example of how a man is susposed to act, so they in fact become the predators in our communities, rather than a part of it. Now that's not meant as a knock on single mothers, my Mom was a single mother and I came out fine, but my own family (two brothers who are Felons) shows it's the exception rather than the rule.

Education is another factor, and more than I want to go into here as there's a myriad of problems on just that issue.

[Demorian]

And a quick note as I run out the door - recall the more recent race riots, notably LA and Cleveland (IIRC)... and the protests in Florida by the black communities being disenfranchised. There are strong communities.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by xtisme

I think 'white people' is too large a target. No, there probably isn't any 'white people' networks. But there are certainly German, Greek, Italian, British, Polish, etc etc networks out there. I'm surprised you even have to ask this. So that makes the rest moot IMO.

And there is certainly an upper-class Anglo-Saxon network, which is more important than all the rest put together. That's no secret, there's a whole subgenre of American novels about the experiences of young men from old-money, D.A.R.-material families attending exclusive Northeastern prep schools -- the kind who grow up to more or less inherit seats on the boards of major corporations, foundations, Congress, etc. It's what people mean when they speak of the "Old Boy Network" without further qualification.

[Lissa]

Originally Posted by Demorian

* As a side note to this part, also recall that white kids in the same situations end up in similar places. It isn't anything "racial" - it is social and economic. The fact is, it is damn hard to "pull yourself up by the bootstraps." You have to have a strong will, support, and opportunity in order to do it. Lacking one of those things early on, you fall back down into the black hole of poverty.

I think this hit the nail on the head. Poor people in America, regardless of skin color, face the same issues. Blacks have it somewhat tougher, but all impoverished people face similar obstacles.

Education has been mentioned. I'd like to add that in a lot of poor communities, there is peer pressure to reject schooling, along with parents who either don't have the time or inclination to encourage and help their children with homework. (Some parents resent their children's efforts to "better" themselves as the child saying they're too good for the life that the parents have provided.) Perhaps there's also a loud/distracting environment which would make doing homework difficult at best-- sometimes the children are expected to care for younger siblings or work odd jobs.

Higher education is even more of a struggle. A kid who's not all that bright, and who can't play sports really doesn't have much of a chance at a scholarship. Even if he gets one, a scholarship often doesn't cover all expenses, and if he's not adequeately prepared (as most kids from bad schools are) holding down a job and catching up to his classmates can be nigh on to impossible.

Health and dental care are also factors. No one wants to hire a receptionist who's missing all of their front teeth, or has a seeping eye infection. Many lower-wage employers offer no sick leave, so employees who have health problems are fired when they can't come to work.

Lack of transportation also effects how far one can go in life. Not all areas are serviced by public transportation. Friends can be unreliable, and cheap cars break down frequently. In the area in which I live, the average wage is $7.00/hour. It's a sixty five mile drive to an area where jobs pay better.

Then, there's child care, which can eat up most of a low-wage paycheck. People on public assistance can live better than those who try to work and pay child care costs.

Lastly, the poor often don't know how to budget wisely. Studies have shown that the poor often buy convenience-size packages of products, rather than the bulk economy-sized ones because it means less immediate cash outlay. They also may use check-cashing services rather than banks, and they tend to pay higher interest rates by buying appliances and the like from rent-to-own style places, etc. Frugality is not an innate human trait. It is something that's usually taught by our parents, but if the parents were unable to budget, a child never learns it.

Some of these issues could be adressed with government programs, but Americans have a disgust for the poor. We see them as lazy, immoral people who get exactly what they deserve, and resent having to lay out a cent for assistance. We don't want to deal with them, and we ceratainly don't want to live near them. Hell, we don't even want to have to look at them, except through the lens of our television sets which comfortably assure us that our predjudices and stereotypes are apt.

[ralph124c]

..for Black Americans, and Hispanic Americans, and White Americans: the wholesale REJECTION of learning! I have been part-time teaching as a temp, and my classroom experiences are that many kids now reject education. They would much rather play games, chat on the phone, etc., than buckle down and READ! In the inner-city schools I've taught in, I've actually stopped trying..I offer the material, and they can take it or leave it.
Which is weird, because the asian immigrant kids are eager to learn..they will become doctors, lawyers, and engineers..while the american kids will be out dealing drugs!

[Ryan_Liam]

Originally Posted by ralph124c

..for Black Americans, and Hispanic Americans, and White Americans: the wholesale REJECTION of learning! I have been part-time teaching as a temp, and my classroom experiences are that many kids now reject education. They would much rather play games, chat on the phone, etc., than buckle down and READ! In the inner-city schools I've taught in, I've actually stopped trying..I offer the material, and they can take it or leave it.
Which is weird, because the asian immigrant kids are eager to learn..they will become doctors, lawyers, and engineers..while the american kids will be out dealing drugs!

Weird, does that apply to Asian Americans then?

[Eve]

[Thank goodness we're finally off transsexuals and onto blacks for a week or two . . .]

[Demorian]

Good points, Lissa, especially regarding health care and transportation (more notable in cities with poor public transit like Los Angeles, but notable elsewhere as well, especially the large amount of suburban areas like Moore's Michigan neighborhood).

Stuffy mentioned the social element of urban black culture (allegedly helped by welfare programs - but that is another debate) that allows men to leave their families behind. I think that is another vital factor in this equation.

Originally Posted by brickbacon

What has happened is that many of the more capable blacks have moved to the suburbs, and have ignored all ties they had to the black communities they left.

I also agree strongly with this. In xtisme's post, he associates with this crowd. I have also noticed that university-educated blacks do tend to isolate themselves from the communities, even if they came from them. I will go on a limb and say that it has to do with wanting to give their children the best chance they can have, which means living with the suburban whites. I say this because my hispanic father did the same thing (though he isn't college educated) - he saved up and moved us out to the more affluent, whiter suburbs and place heavy emphasis that my sister and I would be college educated (and we are).

Combine Stuffy and brickbacon's points, and you can see another element where the social system is failing young black children and virtually condemning them to the repeat the same life.

[Demorian]

Originally Posted by Ryan_Liam

Weird, does that apply to Asian Americans then?

Well, most Asian-Americans, as I noted above, with college educations, move out to the suburbs and stress education to their kids.

Why that is the case with Asians and not anyone else, well, honestly, I don't want to think of the answer to. I suppose it has more to do with cultural traits and the fact that they are more recent, modern immigrants.

Originally Posted by Eve

[Thank goodness we're finally off transsexuals and onto blacks for a week or two . . .]

Seconded. But let's hope that the eugenics people don't catch on.

[Stuffy]

Originally Posted by Eve

[Thank goodness we're finally off transsexuals and onto blacks for a week or two . . .]

Actually we've got 6 weeks, considering Black History Month is coming.

Up Next "Why do Black People Need a Month?"

Followed by "Affirmative Action is Racist"

Oh and you don't want to miss our special news segment "Black men are Scary Motherf@#$ers" tonight at 11.

[Rashak Mani]

Just adding to the asian thingy... they have a cultural and social pressure to study more... which pushes them into valuing more study. Brazilian japanese still have a bit of this and push harder than most for example....

Kids for good or bad will follow role models...

[astro]

IMO these are all secondary symptoms of the root cause of the high rates of various black social pathologies. It beings and ends with fathers. The black man was broken and forcibly removed from the center of family life by over 100 years of slavery. The matriarchial family structure that had to reform around the mother, can work in some circumstances, but is at a huge disadvantage structurally, economically, and socially in competing with other mother + father centric family structures.

With fathers largely absent from the equation, you often get dangerous, immature, man-children driven by a desire to achieve and win, but without the social or mental tools or appropriate behavioral frameworks to go about it constructively.

I wouldn't be a black American man for all the tea in China. There's no place for most of them at the social table, either in in the overwhelmingly matriarchail centric black family structure that pervades black culture, or in the society at large. It amazes me that some people think that a family structure systematically and deliberately broken over centuries is going to pull up it's socks and get on with life in a few decades.

We are reaping (and will continue to reap for some time) what slavery and the destruction of the black family has sown.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Rashak Mani

Just adding to the asian thingy... they have a cultural and social pressure to study more...

Immigrants, especially relatively recent immigrants, usually do have that social pressure. I don't know if it's legit to say it's a cultural thing for Asians; that gets close to some stereotypes. Of course, "the asian immigrant kids are eager to learn..they will become doctors, lawyers, and engineers..while the american kids will be out dealing drugs!" just drives a truck over that line...

[pizzabrat]

Originally Posted by Eve

[Thank goodness we're finally off transsexuals and onto blacks for a week or two . . .]

Mmm...

Originally Posted by astro

With fathers largely absent from the equation, you often get dangerous, immature, man-children driven by a desire to achieve and win, but without the social or mental tools or appropriate behavioral frameworks to go about it constructively.

MAN-CHILD ANGRY!!!!!

[Rashak Mani]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

And there is certainly an upper-class Anglo-Saxon network, which is more important than all the rest put together.... young men from old-money, D.A.R.-material families attending exclusive Northeastern prep schools -- the kind who grow up to more or less inherit seats on the boards of major corporations, foundations, Congress, etc. ...

I've seen the same thing here in Brazil... an academic here stated that the contacts and the network are essential and determine the reason why white brazilians despite everything still dominate and get prominent positions in government and private industry. (hey... I've benefitted from this a few times.)

Not to hijack this thread... but Bush is a good example of how these connections can get a lackluster and a business failure white boy quite far. Blacks have to tough it out all the way.

[gobear]

Originally Posted by Stuffy

Up Next "Why do Black People Need a Month?"

[Nat X] Because TWO months would just be a little too much for The Man.
[/Nat X]

Brilliant post, BTW, Stuffy, but you forgot Slavery: Why Weren't Blacks More Grateful for Free Food and a Fulltime Job? and How Can I Be Racist When I Have a Black Friend, Who Is Black (And I Know His Name!)?

[bump]

Originally Posted by Demorian

The dillema of minorites is strongly reflected in the military; a disproportionate amount of blacks and hispanics enter military service at age 18, because they aren't going to college and don't have many better opportunities. I can't dig up any cites (this post is already making me late for an appointment), but a quick cite, if you'll recall F-9/11's quick glimpse of Moore's hometown, dilapidated, with a heavy percentage of the youths enrolled in the military. That is very common across the country, be it urban Los Angeles or small towns in Michigan.

You make this sound like it's a bad thing. Although I'm white, I've always understood the military as one of the most colorblind institutions that this country has, and always considered poor people who took that route to be fairly smart- they have a job, they have a support structure, they can learn useful skills, and they're judged more on merit than on anything else.

Sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me, especially if I'd grown up poorer.

Back to the OP...

I think one major problem with Black culture, and many other cultures of poverty is that they can have an attitude toward education and success that is very counterproductive. Kind of a glorification of ignorance and poverty, I suppose. Successful black lawyers and doctors aren't respected as much as say... 50 Cent or Chingy, who outside of rapping, can hardly string an intelligible sentence together.

A buddy of mine in high school was saying that he didn't dare say he went to the private school he went to among the Black community for fear of being harassed for "acting white" or otherwise trying to get above his station as a black man.

Needless to say, I was astonished. My friends were all happy for me when I went to school there, and even though I was kind of the overachiever in my group of friends, nobody was ever down on me for it, and their parents didn't give mine a hard time either. It was all good that I was doing so well academically and in sports- it was like they respected the results of studying and hard work. My buddy's experience was the exact opposite of mine, and he was pretty sad about it when he was talking about it


That's my take on what's messed up with the Black community. And it's not exclusive to them either- it seems to be a problem of poorer communities.

[Demorian]

Originally Posted by bump

You make this sound like it's a bad thing. Although I'm white, I've always understood the military as one of the most colorblind institutions that this country has, and always considered poor people who took that route to be fairly smart- they have a job, they have a support structure, they can learn useful skills, and they're judged more on merit than on anything else.

I meant it as a rather neutral comment, actually. The military is the last chance for some people to get an education or get maturity and discipline they lacked at younger ages. It can help people turn their lives around.

Of course, this is all more recently militarily. I wouldn't call the military truly "colorblind" up until the '80s.

[Freeman]

History played an important roll in the suffering of Blacks now in America!!!. It is the idea in the Whites minds such: You were my slave yesterday and you want to be my master today.

Blacks have 2 options:

1. Form a new Sovereign State in America, totally run by Blacks for Blacks and leave the White man alone. Blacks will never prosper under Whit rule.

2. Immigrate back to Africa where they would feel at home again. God made their bodies adoptable to live in a hot humid climate.

Regards,
Freeman

[DanBlather]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

And there is certainly an upper-class Anglo-Saxon network, which is more important than all the rest put together. That's no secret, there's a whole subgenre of American novels about the experiences of young men from old-money, D.A.R.-material families attending exclusive Northeastern prep schools -- the kind who grow up to more or less inherit seats on the boards of major corporations, foundations, Congress, etc. It's what people mean when they speak of the "Old Boy Network" without further qualification.

I agree with this. Imagine what W's life would have been like if he didn't have that network. He'd never have gotten into Yale with his grades, he might have been drafted and had to go to Vietnam, if he had been caught during his coke days he'd have a record as a felon.

Likewise Laura. Imagine that she was black and caused a fatal car accident of a white kid. She'd probably have had the crap beat out of her.

I grew up poor (white) and was always sensitve to slights and aware of the advantages that my rich friends had. They couldn't see it; they just thought that it was normal to have your father call someone up to get a job.

[DanBlather]

Originally Posted by Freeman

History played an important roll in the suffering of Blacks now in America!!!. It is the idea in the Whites minds such: You were my slave yesterday and you want to be my master today.

Blacks have 2 options:

1. Form a new Sovereign State in America, totally run by Blacks for Blacks and leave the White man alone. Blacks will never prosper under Whit rule.

2. Immigrate back to Africa where they would feel at home again. God made their bodies adoptable to live in a hot humid climate.

Regards,
Freeman

It's emmigrate and adaptable. You must be from a maroon state.

[astro]

Originally Posted by DanBlather

It's emmigrate and adaptable. You must be from a maroon state.

Now, now... there's no need for that. It's obvious by his incisive logic, and historical perspective that he's very well red.

[Zoe]

xtisme: [Most of them have nothing but scorn to throw at their own 'black leaders' like Jesse Jackson and company...and the same scorn to throw at most of the liberals as well with the same mantra.

I think you have mischaracterized what Jesse Jackson's message has been and most liberals too. The Rev. Jackson has talked about overcoming any obstacles and having pride -- doing whatever it takes.

Which Black leaders (no need to use quotations marks -- they are Black leaders -- have promoted the idea that Blacks aren't as capable? It wasn't Martin Luther King, Jr. or Andrew Young.

And the Blacks that I know have not objected to Bill Cosby's ideas; they objected to his choice of explicit language. But I welcome cites showing that there is a big backlash to the ideas themselves.

In Nashville there is a very strong Black community. That may have something to do with the two predominately Black universities here, especially Fisk University which has an excellent reputation.

[astro]

Originally Posted by Zoe

And the Blacks that I know have not objected to Bill Cosby's ideas; they objected to his choice of explicit language. But I welcome cites showing that there is a big backlash to the ideas themselves.

I'm not quite understanding your distinction here re his "explicit language". Has he been cursing or something?

[baronsabato]

Originally Posted by Demorian

Well, most Asian-Americans, as I noted above, with college educations, move out to the suburbs and stress education to their kids.

Why that is the case with Asians and not anyone else, well, honestly, I don't want to think of the answer to. I suppose it has more to do with cultural traits and the fact that they are more recent, modern immigrants.

Besides cultural traditions respecting education, there are a number of factors as to why Asians as a whole succeed more than other minority groups. For one, Asian immigrants to the US are usually already from well-educated, middle-class or upper-class backgrounds, mainly because they would be the ones who could afford a trans-oceanic trip. Asian immigration was also restricted for a long time to only the cream of the crop. Thus, Asian immigrants bring their educational success to the US and impart it to their kids. It's interesting to note that immigrants from Vietnam and Cambodia have high poverty rates, probably because they arrived as poor refugees, unlike most of their Chinese and Japanese counterparts.

Returning back to the OP, it seems that a lot of people here believe that the poverty suffered by black Americans is indeed due to, at least partially, centuries of slavery and horrific discrimination. I tend to agree with this, but I was wondering what the trends are like for blacks who immigrated here of their own free will, perhaps recently enough to make discrimination a relative non-issue. I would expect that they and their children should have higher levels of economic success, but does anyone have a cite or any concrete information on this?

[SentientMeat]

The problem as a whole is that of social mobility. If a group of people have historically been at the bottom through unsubstantiated prejudice then, like an unstirred drink, they will largely remain there until longer after any "stirring" begins.

The US is now more economically stratified than it has been for decades - it is extremely difficult to move up from the bottom even if you're white. Add some residual prejudice, however mild, to that situation and those statistics are not so mysterious.

[Hampshire]

Any changes in societal thinking don't happen overnight. I don't even think they can be measured in years. They have to be measured in generations.
The mindset of biggots in America along with the mindset of the black man who blames his situation on society are deeply rooted and have little chance of changing.
You have to look toward the next generation to change the mindset. I'd argue that generation X, or generation Y, has better attitudes and ideas about minorities than say the baby boomers. Yet, the baby boomer are generation X's parents, and some beliefs are handed down.
It's how generation X takes these beliefs, takes out the negativity and biggotry, and hands them down to their offspring where you will see a change.

I fear the same thing will happen in Iraq. The animosity they have toward the U.S. for destroying entire cities, causing civilian casualties, and disrupting their entire society can not be repaired overnight. They're too deeply scared to feel the benefits of a future of democracy. Only their future generations will benefit.

[you with the face]

Originally Posted by Stuffy

Actually we've got 6 weeks, considering Black History Month is coming.

Up Next "Why do Black People Need a Month?"

Followed by "Affirmative Action is Racist"

Oh and you don't want to miss our special news segment "Black men are Scary Motherf@#$ers" tonight at 11.

How could you forget "Yet Another Rant Against 'African-American'" and "You'll Get Reparations Only From My Cold, White Hands"?

To answer the OP, what went wrong was slavery and decades of government-sanctioned oppression that created a well-entrenched underclass. It doesn't help at all that the underclass was--and continues to be--marked by race. Take each of those things in isolation and things today may have turned out drastically different. If the slaves had been of European descent, the horrors of the institution would have been harder to justify (as long as it was) and assimilation would have been a lot easier after the Civil War. If there had never been slavery of these European undesirables and all that had been formally enacted against them was some kind of Jim Crow, that kind of oppression would have been a lot more difficult to enforce and less steeped in the baggage that characterized post-Reconstruction South. And if slavery and Jim Crow had never been in effect, black people may have had to endure racism and discrimination, but not of the severity and scope of what we had.

Taken all together, slavery, institutional discrimination, and race put a triple whammy on black people. Of course, knowing what happened during slavery gives insight into the problems of today. But I think the greatest effects came as an unintended consequence of the integration movement. Siphon off the middle-class from the rest of the community and what you get is a loss of assets: diverse role models, entrepreneurship, two-parent households, leaders that put a high priority on education and mentoring, etc. What is left behind is the people who never got a chance to "catch up"; these are the people still feeling the aftershocks of oppression and who carry most of the burden that comes with stigmatization. Speech, dress, and attitude: all of that is written in these traits. With that you get is crime, lack of achievement, and other behaviors associated with poverty.

[Bricker]

I accept that "race" is a social construct, and meaningless scientifically.

Can someone explain to me, in simple language that I can understand, why the NFL and NBA are dominated by black players? I assume that both those organizations are choosing players solely on the basis of athletic merit.

[archmichael]

There are a whole bunch of problems, but I believe most of them are economic.

Moving from LA to Mississippi, I have had a opportunity to see that poor Blacks and poor Whites have more in common than they have differences. But no one wonders what went wrong with Poor White Americans.

If you are middle class or above, you are taught a lot more things that are taken for granted. Don't go and get a payday advance. Don't go and pawn things. Get a checking account, dont go to check cashing places. 1/4 of your income should not be spent on a car note, let alone a lease payment. Common Sense?? Apparently not. Dave Ramsey is making a killing handing out advice like this.

America, the Land of Second Chances, is quickly becoming a Land of One Chance. Did something stupid when you were younger and got a felony? No good jobs for you. Got bad credit? Well we wont hire you for a well paying job that can fix that credit.

Here in MS, there seems to be an inordinate amount of pride among both Blacks and White, in hard work and having a blue-collar background. Blue collar work is nothing to be ashamed of, but the pride is so high that I believe it affects the attitudes of self improvement. I have been told half jokingly, that office work does not equal "an honest day's work" or "Real work". The problem is more and more blue-collar jobs are being sent overseas. You can't be proud of your blue-collar roots, if you can't find a job.

All of us will stumble in life and get stuck in a rut. A couple of years ago I quite my job, and during the recession I was shocked at how difficult it was to find another job. This was quite a blow to my psyche, but I pulled out of it. I can only imagine how hard it is when you look around, and your entire community seems to be in the same boat.

No one like to be told they're fucking up. Most of the time, they are well aware of their situation and are trying to better it. No one likes to be told they're fucking up AND letting down their race. I think this is how some viewed Cosby's statements.

I believe that racism exists and plays a part, but how much has been the source of countless debates.

[holmes]

Originally Posted by Bricker

I accept that "race" is a social construct, and meaningless scientifically.

Can someone explain to me, in simple language that I can understand, why the NFL and NBA are dominated by black players? I assume that both those organizations are choosing players solely on the basis of athletic merit.

Basketball and Football are a cheap sports to play as a kid and kids with talent are noticed quickly...follow the money.

Historically the underclass use sports as a method to gain respect and money. Had this been I don't know, 60 - 70 years ago, you would have noticed that Jews were the majority in Basketball, as the Irish and Italians were in boxing.

As those groups climbed the ladder, the next underclass filled those niches. What happened to the African-American, is that the ladder was kicked out from under them and they never had the opportunity to rise for many centuries. So while other groups were able to shift from sports to other avenues, the African-American stayed focused on sports and pointed generation after generation in that direction.

Nothing to do with genetics, but opportunity.

If you have majority of African-Americans focused into playing 2 sports, then the numbers will simply overwhelm any other group. It's really just that simple.

[XT]

Originally Posted by Demorian

I'm seriously at a loss hearing that. Where do you live?

Currently in New Mexico. For 11 years I lived in Maryland and worked in DC and Northern Virginia. I also lived for 2 years in New York, 3 years in Boston and 2 years in Philly. That help any?

------start rant

Perhaps I'm reading some of the replies wrong but there seems to be an undercurrent of sneering semi-accusations that I'm some kind of racist...and that MY friends are obviously of the wrong sort (several references to paraphrase 'are THESE your kind of friends?'). They aren't REAL black men and women because they are professionals (not all of them are college educated btw...in the IT field its more the certs you have than a college degree, least it used to be), even though many of them came from exactly the environment described in the OP...the only differences is they actually know what the hell they are talking about with reference to getting out of the ghetto and making their lives better. So do I for that matter.

To me, THIS is racist...as if you say to the part of the population thats successful that they've sold out, or aren't REALLY <insert poor down trodden minority here>. I.e. REAL minorities are the ones who remain downtrodden (least this is how I read between the lines of whats being said). And they are downtrodden because they simply CAN'T do anything about it...the system is against them, their history is against them, the white man is out to get them, its just so HARD...white people have it easier (this is of course mainly true...still isn't an excuse IMO).

Even with all the things put in place to help minorities (and there are a lot...I know because I used em myself), the bottom line excuse is...its just too hard. This has always annoyed me to no end when folks talk about hispanics (my own background)...I'm surprised that more blacks don't get annoyed with this attitude actually. Actually, my un-black friends (appearently) DO get pretty annoyed with it...as do my un-hispanic friends and family. But you know, they (and I) aren't REAL minorities...

-----end rant

Just to shift things a bit to my own perspective, as perhaps it relates to the OP, even if I'm not black. I'm from Mexico. My family immigrated (emmigrate?) to the US in the early 60's. I grew up in South Tucson, basically (at the time) a hispanic ghetto in Arizona. My folks came legally to the US (my mother was born in Texas, though her folks were illegals she was still a citizen), but my dad had very little english and few real skills...my grandfather was a dirt farmer in a small village most of you probably never heard of and couldn't find on a map if you tried...about as poor as you can be in Mexico. In Mexico we lived in a shack with no running water (there was a community well), no indoor plumbing (we DID have our own outhouse), and certainly no electricity...in fact there was no electricity in the entire village before we left. In Tuscon we lived in a one room 'house' with no indoor plumbing or electricity, though of course there was electricity in Tuscon which was a comfort. We did get mandatory indoor plumbing though within the first year or so we lived there.

When we came to the US my dad worked odd jobs (mainly as a mechanic/pump operator at a gas station)...anything he could do. My mother cleaned rich white peoples houses (well, as rich as whites are in Tuscon at least)...she was a maid basically. My dad studied english, he read, he took corrospondence courses for high school equivelency, even though most in our community spoke mainly spanish and didn't bother with such things. As soon as he could he joined the Navy and got into the electronics schools...and was shipped to Vietnam, originally on the small river patrol boats, but eventually he was assigned to a destroyer in the electronics section.

To make a long story short, my dad was able to take what he had learned in the Navy and get a decent technician job with an electronics company fixing TV's and such...and to go to college in the evenings studying electrical engineering. We moved up from a one room shack in Tuscon to a two room house in a better hispanic section of town (with running water!!), to a better house in California...etc etc. Today my dad owns his own company and I own my own IT company as well (associated with my fathers company).

Am I not a hispanic anymore because my father and my family (my EXTENDED family that is) moved out of the ghetto and made our lives better? My father had very little help from the government to do what he did...basically the breaks he got were that they let us into this country when they didn't have too, and breaks he made in the Navy. I grew up with very little...it wasn't until I was in college myself (I DID have government help admittedly, as well as assistance from many hispanic organizations for loans and grants....something available to ALL hispanics if they only take advantage of it) that our standard of living was what is considered 'middle class'...when we finally had extra money for things like TV's, vacations, etc.

Many of my other minority friends have similar stories...either they came up from various ghettos themselves or their parents did. Some of my friends came from solidly middle class families or even upper class families. Whats funny (to me) is its the ones who came from middle or upper class families that talk like the folks in this thread....most of the folks who have similar stories to my own also have similar attitudes. Interesting that, no?

-XT

[Demorian]

Originally Posted by Bricker

I accept that "race" is a social construct, and meaningless scientifically.

Can someone explain to me, in simple language that I can understand, why the NFL and NBA are dominated by black players? I assume that both those organizations are choosing players solely on the basis of athletic merit.

Because however much we would like to believe it, race is not entirely a social construct. Rather, people from a given area tend to have traits differeng from people from another area. Hair color, disease immunity, height, athletic performance...... We prefer not to think that there are mental/intellectual differences, but it is really too hard to tell given the tremendous effects of social influences. But you'd need pretty strong evidence to make a case for blacks being genetically less intelligent than anyone else.

[lee]

Why assume that?

Why not assume that those selecting athletes don't want whites out there in a high-risk position?

Maybe those funding sports see it as a way to soothe the masses, like the lottery. It helps propagate the status quo to give those with less, the have nots, opportunities that won't help most and won't even permanently elevate a family, but does let them think that this is a way that they can have more and so work harder and take more risks to be better athletes than those who already are part of the haves. It also gives them incentives to favor laws that help the haves because one day they will be one of the haves. It gives visible opportunity to some and keeps a whole lot more busy, but not busy with things that would provide actual competition to most whites economically. With performance enhancement drugs as such a big part of the equation we can't assume that who we see on the field reflects all that much on who is a naturally better athlete.

I don't know that it is the case, but I do know that purported meritocracies ofthen are not. There are certainly other explanations than either the one you or I have provided.