The state of Marriage and fathers in urban poor Black America

Let me make my position very clear from the get-go. I believe that there are systems in our country that have significant racist effects, even if no individual participant had a racist intent. And some do. These issue must be addressed. That battle is far from won. We all also are guilty of prejudging based on superficial appearances and are obligated to make ourselves conscious of those unavoidable thought patterns, thereby placing them under conscious control. But I also cannot help but be aware that there are factors within the urban poor Black American subculture that perpetuate their underclass position within American society. This is not intended as “blaming” but it is nevertheless a factor. As a member of society at large it is my job to address issues such as equitable access to resources. I need to work for educational opportunities in the inner city, for universal healthcare and any other means that allows for access to quality healthcare for all. And so on. But it is not my job to prescribe to the Black American community what needs to fixed within it. I merely note the fact that, statistically, Black American families, in particular urban poor Black American families, are less likely to start off married than families in other American subcultures. A family that begins without marriage is less likely to continue to have a strong and present father figure. It is “fragile” and the lack of a strong and present father figure is a risk factor for all sorts of underachievement.

  • PEDIATRICS Vol. 117 No. 1 January 2006, pp. 168-183 “Annual Summary of Vital Statistics: 2004”

I respectfully ask members of the Black American community present here: Why is this the case? What can or should be done to address this?

The solution to this situation, if there is to be one, cannot come from pale-complected people like me; it must come from within the Black American community itself. I can, bluntly, honestly, and respectfully ask the questions, but other than that I believe that I can serve best by bugging out. Thoughts?

If I could expand on and ask to clarify your question…

So the question is, why do black women (and presumably Native American women too, with similar rates) have babies outside of wedlock at higher rates than Hispanic or white women? And, why are black women more likely to be in lower-income urban areas? Again, as far as Native American women are concerned, are they more likely to be on reservations, which tend to be lower-income areas as well? Are there areas of the United States where white women’s rates of births out of wedlock are similar to urban black or reservation Native American ones?

What the statistics don’t show is actual pregnancies. Assuming that these are the same across ethnic/racial groups, which I think is a fair assumption, why do black and Native American unmarried women choose to bring more babies to term? Why are white women so much less likely to do so? What does the level of other (educational, employment) opportunities do to the decision to bring a baby to term? What about the level of intergenerational/extended family support?

Read this

The Black Family: 40 Years of Lies

Astro, thank you for the link. It provides a wonderful history of the issues that I was ignorant of. It is of some comfort that my own take on it has been preceded by the likes of Moynihan, even if his concerns fell on unheeding ears. The author unfairly lambasts N.O.W. methinks, but that quibble aside a well written piece. That said, I will attempt to clarify the question, as gigi requests. I do not believe that this a question of differential cultural use of abortion, although I would be open to any evidence that is presented to make that case. I think that it is a question of what is considered a cultural norm within different American population groups. I am not all that interested in the “why” it is (the “blame game”). I instead am operating on the knwledge that the lack of a strong and present father figure increases the risk for underachievement and for contnuing in poverty across generations, be the mother SuperMom or not, be there multiple generations involved helping out or not. And to me the responsibility for fixing this, if it is to be fixed (not the “blame”) lies within th Black American community; it would be arrogant of me to prescribe change, for example. I am wondering if our various Black dopers agree or disagree with that assessment, and what they think are possible action plans if they do agree.

I’m not quite understanding your question. Are you asking if it’s a more acceptable scenario to be unmarried & knocked up in black families regardless of income distribution or what…? I think it’s currently less a race/cultural issue & more (though not completely) an economic class issue. Poor, underclass black & white girls are less likely to internalize the cautions against early pregnancy for a variety of reasons. For girls in those situations they make a lifestyle calculus that getting pregnant is not the worst of all possible alternatives.

Re the correlation that fathers being absent from a family correlates with girls tending get knocked up earlier and unwed, I think (IIRC) this has been shown to have a strong correlation.

DSeid, does your source control for income level anywhere in its study of unmarried birthrates and race?

After all, if black people are disproportionately poor, then I would kind of expect to find that they also have disproportionately high rates of social disadvantages such as poor education, crime, substance abuse, and single-parent families. If that’s so, then it would seem that the root of the problem is ultimately poverty rather than race per se.

In which case, you and I would not need to “bug out” of the problem just because we’re members of an ethnic group nowadays considered white.

Well look at the difference, for example, between the Hispanic and the Black numbers. They each have roughly the same percentage of poverty (24% for Black and 22% for Hispanic according to the U.S. Census) but the percentage of married vs unmarried and of teen pregnancies are very different. The point is that while poverty may contribute to a high incidence of unmarried parenthood, moreso does a high rate of unmarried parenthood perpetuate poverty. And that the cultural norm is different in urban poor Black culture than in most other poor groups. According to that linked article Moynihan noted this over 40 years ago:

Now a White liberal like Moynihan advocating this went over like the proverbial lead balloon. As it would today. But the high rate of Black unmarried mothers does not seem to be a function of economic staus alone.

Thanks DSeid, that’s important information. If two groups have similar poverty rates but significantly different birthrates in the various categories, then there must be something besides strictly economic factors involved.

Judging from the quote in your OP, there are non-economic factors involved in two apparently opposite effects. Namely, the overall unmarried birthrate is significantly higher for black women than for Hispanic women. However, the recent decline in teen pregnancy has been significantly greater for black teens than for Hispanic teens.

I don’t really have a clue how to convincingly explain this contradiction or any of the rest of your data, and I suspect that the causes are quite complex and interlinked, so any attempt to identify “the” cause or even the chief cause would be mere speculation. There are so many social, cultural, economic, etc. factors involved. For example, how do we compare Hispanics, with a much higher proportion of recent immigrants and the consequent stronger influences of foreign culture(s), with blacks or whites whose American ancestry tends to go back much farther? How do we measure the levels of racism that affect the different groups?

It’s tough enough for sociologists to explain a relatively isolated and recent social phenomenon. But what you’re asking for is an explanation of the immense social phenomenon of low-income black family structure in the US over at least the last 40 years, and that’s even leaving out all its history in the American institutions of segregation and slavery. Good luck with the search, but I really don’t see how you’re going to get valid answers.

If it’s a cultural problem, how can anything be done about it? How can legislation or public policy affect culture?

Looking deeper (warning PDF) at the numbers, you’ll notice that not all poverty is created equal. While similar numbers of both groups are below the poverty line, the numbers below half of the poverty line, as well as the numbers just above the poverty line are telling. Many more blacks are poor when you don’t use a single line as an indicator, and also that when measuring the poorest of the poor, blacks are greatly overrepresented there, far more so than hispanics. With that, I’m not willing to attribute this to culture instead of economic factors at this point.

I do think there is a cultural aspect. The fact that in the days of slavery we specifically worked to break the social bonds of family probably plays a part in it. As do the faint echos of traditional West African family structures. Our idea of the family comes from circumstances specific to Europe and to European Americans. Why would we expect African Americans to have the same one?

It’s not all bad, either. For example, grandparents and especially grandmothers play a very strong role in many African-American families, which can be very rich and rewarding. There are benefits and drawbacks to anything, and I think in this case most of the drawbacks can be attributed to the fact that most of society is set up for the European-American family…by this I mean stuff like the way we work, school schedules, urban planning, etc. There are a lot of things we can do to make this kind of thing much less devestating- for a small example, inviting grandparents in to the PTA and parent-teacher conferences.

Another factor that can’t be overlooked is the role of prison and the war on drugs in young Black men’s lives. Until we sort out the war on drugs, often the men simply won’t be available.

IMHO, Black women have spoken pretty clearly about how they feel about the subject, and rather than tell them they ought to feel differently, I think we ought to look at why an absent father is such a risk factor and work on those things. A society exists to serve it’s people, not people to serve our society. If people want single parent families, let’s make that a viable thing.

I’m sure there is a cultural aspect, but I’m not so sure that the Black women in question have spoken about their feelings in the matter. I have known many poor black women professionally over the past twenty years, in every sort of family situation. Some married, some living with the father of their children, some who are no longer involved with the father(s) of their children. Some of those fathers in the last group were still involved with their children. The only emotions I heard the women express about the absent, univolved fathers were negative- they believed the father should help support the children, visit them ,be involved in their lives and were upset that he didn’t. I’m don’t think they wanted single parenthood with an uninvolved father so much as that was where they ended up.

Kimstu, I am not asking why it is. Oh, I can make up lots of amatuer sociologist explanations, but I am sure that they’d all oversimplify some very complex dynamics. And again, I am not interested oin blame, I am interested in effect and future actions.

Brian I tend to agree that legislation and public policy are likely ineffective. I wonder if action within the Black community, if they felt it was a problem, would be more effective.

I do not know how those voices should be effectively raised and it is not my voice, but I hear them being raised some, in different ways, and applaud them. They range from Cosby’s grumpiness, to MacGruder’s humor, to Louis Farrakahn’s eloquence*:

DMC That’s not just a pdf, that’s a several minute long high bandwidth download! I cancelled it after a few. I’ll take your word on the figures. I still do not buy that marital status is primarily economically mediated. Teen pregnancies I can see. Total fecundity is worldwide associated with lower education and lower SES. But marriage status?

even, beyond Doreen’s point, I am not telling Black women how they ought to feel. I am pointing out what appears to be a clear association that was noted over forty years ago by Moynihan and has become only a larger problem after four decades of soft pedelling it: families without ongoing strong present male influences are at increased risk for a wide variety of underachievement and urban poor Black families seem to be particularly prone to this occurence. This certainly contributes to the perpetuation of poverty. It is in no way the only reason or even the largest reason; many other factors are also at play. I am asking how they feel about it. If they feel that the staus quo is okay. And if they do not then what they think should be done about it. I am admittedly ignorant about how to implement change in this subculture. I am trying to become incrementally less so.

*Yes, I know that on that same page are links to some of that man’s antisemitic vitriol. So be it. He can still say things that I agree with as well.

To clarify, I don’t mean that Black women have expressed a preference for single-parenthood. But it is pretty clear that it’s not a dealbreaker- people know the odds, and I refuse to believe that every single mother out there was operating under a delusion. The desire for children is one of our oldest and strongest ones, and thats not going to change even if the men arn’t there.

As for why the men arn’t there- I think you have to look at America’s absurdly high prison rates, the war on drugs, broken schools, modern-day segregation and general lack of economic oppertunity. Old fashioned sexual morality is way, way, way at the bottom of the list of causes here. It’s a ludicris and insulting joke to try to focus on that.

But why? It doesn’t have to be that way. Humans are immensly creative creatures- I’m sure we could find a way to make single motherhood not automatically improvishing and harmful. And frankly, it seems like single motherhood is gaining ground across the board. Why should we try to mold people into a lifestyle they don’t want instead of looking for solutions that fit our changing world? A few simples changes to workplaces, schools, etc. could really go a longer ways than trying to recapture some imagined past.

Well, legislation can have an effect. Whether it can provide a corrective is a separate question.

It is fun, (almost trite) to ridicule Johnson’s Great Society, these days, but there was one aspect of the legislation (over which Johnson had no control) that directly contributed to family breakups. The moralists among the Congresscritters, (and not “the Republicans” or “the Dixiecrats”–there is enoughg blame to spread around), included in most of the legislation aimed at poor women and poor children, restrictions on what a family could receive if the father was present. The “reasoning” was that if the father was present, it was up to him to find some sort of work and provide for the family. Reasonable enough on its face, but the result was that a man who could not find work could better provide for his family by abandoning them so that the state would deign to help them. (This practice did not begin with the Great Society legislation, but that legislation was a good opportunity to correct such laws–missed.)

We absolutely could find a way to make single motherhood not automatically impoverishing- in fact, it already isn’t . It’s going to be a lot more difficult to make the lack of a father’s presence ( in life, not in the home) not harmful, because that harm very possibly comes from the kid’s emotions. I remember once reading about a study that found kids whose fathers were dead had fewer emotional/behavior problems than those whose fathers were alive but uninvolved. The theory was that the problems came not from the father’s absence itself, but the feelings the kids had about the father’s choice not to be involved.

Previous SDMB topic.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7010950#post7010950

Add my thanks to others’ to astro for the link.

And an important fact from that link: this indeed is a state of single parent households, in particular single mother households, being particularly common in American Black society. Black America is indeed disproprtionately poor, yet even while despite this poverty Black teen pregnacy and total fecudity rates have decreased over time, Black single parenthood has not. It is hard to grow up male without strong, present, and positive role models. It is hard to grow up female without them as well. Despite even’s comments there and here te sol;ution cannot be to change society such that Dad’s are irrelevant.

I have been googling to try to find something informed about what the barriers might be, and found an excerpt from this book: “Black Fathers in Contemporary America Strengths Weaknesses and Strategies for Change” I may need to buy it.

This is also interesting

So interestingly, while marriage is a vehicle that helps produce enough wealth to get out of poverty, many of the disadvantged want to reserve marriage for when they are are no longer poor. They believe in marriage, they want marriage, but childbearing and marriage are disconnected: marriage is the dream for when they’ve “made it”. A bit of a Catch 22, eh?

One speculation that I can find no evidence for or against:

Hispanic-American culture is still strongly Catholic and tied to values of family of origin cultures. It seems likely to me that Grandmothers-to-be in these families are likely to be exerting strong pressure on unmarried females and their partners to get hitched. It also seems likely to me that Grandmothers-to-be in Black American culture are less likely to be concerned about unmarried motherhood status and more concerned about the bad influence of an unworthy partner/son-in-law. I guess this question is, what role does the Grandmaother (or Grandmother-to-be) play in facilitating or inhibiting the transition from well intended but unmarried and non-cohabitating father (or father-to-be) to married man/present father? Any? None?

But I don’t see how we can possibly come up with effective ways to change the status quo unless we understand why it exists. No, we don’t have to put it in terms of finding somebody to blame, but we need to understand the causes.

Heck, according to one of your own cites, the problem seems to be in the process of being solved, or at least reduced, already:

So maybe your concern is actually years out of date, and the major social changes you’re hoping for have already started to take place. Or maybe not. Without a deeper understanding of what’s actually happening and why it’s happening, quests for solutions are apt to sound like nothing much more than smug moralizing—“oh, somebody needs to fix what’s wrong with these people”. What use is that, really?