Help! Want to be the Godmomma, but I'm not Catholic...

[Yamirskoonir]

...and the Momma wants me to lie about it.

Backstory: My best friend of 16 years gave birth to a beautiful baby boy 6 months ago. The clock is ticking on baptism and various in-laws and well-meaning (nosy) acquaintances are tapping their watches and shaking their heads. I can only presume this is because in Catholic theology, should the little one die before he is baptized, he will sit forever in purgatory.

Anyhow, my best friend asked me to be his godparent months before he was born, and I happily agreed! We always knew growing up that we would love each other's future children as our own, and should something actually happen to his parents, I really don't want him going to his abusive grandparents (both paternal and maternal, I'm afraid).

There's just one problem: I'm not catholic, and apparently, I need to be.

It makes sense on some level -- the church wants to ensure that were something to happen to the parents, the child would still be given a good catholic upbringing. The fact that I'm a christian (but not catholic) is not enough according to the deacon she spoke with. So my best friend has asked me to lie and tell the church that I am catholic, so I will be the "official" godparent, and my name will go on the certificate (which I assume will be important for legal purposes).

But lie? To the church? Stand there in front of the priest and straight out lie to his face? Never mind that the baptism won't be "official" in the eyes of God if I lie, never mind that my best friend doesn't seem to be a very "good" catholic. I feel really uncomfortable about doing this. But my best friend said she wants only me as the godparent, and she really wants me to do it "for her."

Dopers, help: I know it's unethical to lie to any organization to gain something, and this strikes an especially wrong chord with me because it's messing with religion and people's beliefs, which I try to respect. But my best friend trusts me and me alone to take care of her child when she can't, and has specifically requested that I do this for her. I'm inclined to go through with it because it is my best friend's wish.

So at this point, I would really appreciate any kind of Doper feedback on the situation. Is there the potential to really offend someone, or does this situation happen all the time? Are there any legal options to make me the godparent that have precedent over the religious ceremony? WWADD (what would a Doper do)? I truly welcome all commments and insights that you're willing to share!

(...unless you want to turn this into a debate about catholic doctrine or criticize their practices. Then I would recommend a separate thread in the pit with a link back to this thread -- but I might beat you to it!)

[Yamirskoonir]

Forgot to mention one shining nugget from our discussion about this:

Me: "But won't they know I'm not catholic? I mean, I don't know when to kneel or the hail mary or anything like that..."

Her: "Girl, I don't know the hail mary!"

Me:

[Captain Amazing]

I could be wrong here, but I don't think, in the US, at least, being a "godparent" gives you any legal rights, and if, God forbid, his parents did die, that wouldn't neccesarily keep his grandparents from getting custody. All being a godparent means, I think, is that you agree to help raise the child as a Catholic. Of course, if you're not in the US, your country has its own laws, and it might be different there.

[Sierra Indigo]

Hijack, but I just read the 'hail mary' as the 'hairy mail'. Carry on ;D

[Graycat]

"Godparent" is a religious office; whether or not the parents are present, you are signing up to oversee the child's religious education.* Lying about your religion off the bat does not strike me as a good start.

Guardianship is a legal matter; if they want you as the guardian of their minor child they have to put in writing; my kid's guardianship is addressed in mine and my husband's wills. I'm sure a lawyer in your state could tie it all up.


*Doctrinally, anyway. My own experience was that it was largely ceremonial. I never even met my godfather; he was engaged to my aunt when I was born, but they broke up before the wedding.

[Dunderman]

I would have no problem with this. The only ones who know you're not Catholic are the parents, and obviously they don't care. The priest will never find out. But that's me. You appear to be religious and have a problem with lying to the church, which I can totally dig. In your case, I'd recommend politely declining.

[Campion]

Originally Posted by Yamirskoonir

I can only presume this is because in Catholic theology, should the little one die before he is baptized, he will sit forever in purgatory.

Well, don't mention this gem to the priest, or he'll launch into a long discussion. The short version is that the Church doesn't know where unbaptized babies go at death, but it presumes that God loves them and will take care of them.

Originally Posted by Yamirskoonir

Anyhow, my best friend asked me to be his godparent months before he was born, and I happily agreed! We always knew growing up that we would love each other's future children as our own, and should something actually happen to his parents, I really don't want him going to his abusive grandparents (both paternal and maternal, I'm afraid).

There is no relationship (other than one of coincidence) between who the legal guardian of a child would be after the parents' death, and who the child's godparent is. So you can rest assured that if you decide not to take on the responsibility of being the godparent, that will have no bearing on whether you could be the child's guardian.

Originally Posted by Yamirskoonir

So my best friend has asked me to lie and tell the church that I am catholic, so I will be the "official" godparent, and my name will go on the certificate (which I assume will be important for legal purposes).

Nope. Here's an alternative:

Q: Can a non-Catholic be a godparent at a Catholic baptism? My uncle is the best example of a Christian that I know, and I would like to have him by godfather to my child, but he is a Protestant.

A: Canon 874 of the Code of Canon Law states that the office of sponsor—or godparent as it is traditionally known—must be filled by a Catholic who has been confirmed and has received the Eucharist. He must be at least sixteen years old and live a life of faith that befits the role of godparent.

Your uncle may serve as what is known as a "Christian witness" at the baptism in order to be involved in the ceremony, but he may not be the godfather.

Here is Canon 874. So you can still be a witness to the ceremony, have your name on the certificate, but not have to lie about being Catholic.

Originally Posted by Yamirskoonir

Are there any legal options to make me the godparent that have precedent over the religious ceremony?

Yes. It's called a "will." Your friend should consult an attorney who specializes in estate matters (drafting wills) and have a will drafted that names you as her child's legal guardian, whether or not you are the godparent.

I can't tell you whether to lie or not. All I can tell you is that, if you believe that you must be the child's godparent to protect your ability to be the child's legal guardian in the event of your friend's death, you are mistaken. You should make your decision on the other factors, including whether you are willing to take on the responsibilities toward the child's spiritual life that being the godparent requires.

As I am not Catholic, I'll now sit back and wait for those of the faith to correct the above.

[WhyNot]

Becoming a godparent does not make you the child's legal guardian in the case of the death of her parent.

If that's the goal, then her mother needs to consult with a lawyer and have it put in her Will.

As for the rest of it, I could not bring myself to do it. You say you're not Catholic, but you are a Christian. Are you prepared to literally lie to God and everybody? I wouldn't be, and I'm not even Christian.

A child is not limited to two Godparents, even in the Catholic church. If it were me, I would you suggest to my friend that, if she MUST do a Catholic Christening to keep the family happy, she choose Catholic godparents for that ceremony. Another ceremony can be held anytime. Either she as the mother or someone else serving as the officiant can announce you Godmother, or Spirit Mother or whatever term you two like. You can discuss the details of what it means, and announce it to everyone then. You can then give the baby a token of your relationship if you choose.

I have several Spirit Daughters, and my responsibilities are as follows: To love and nurture them as my own daughters. To be available to answer any questions they have about life, the universe and everything. To be a voice of advice and a non-judgemental ear for their transition into womanhood. To share with them my wonder in the world, and enjoy sharing their unique perspectives on life. To teach them of the religious path I follow and that of their family (the two are not identical). To guide them in their development as spiritual beings and bring them closer to the Divine.

I am not the legal guardian upon parental death of any of them. They would go to other people, and my relationship with them would continue unchanged. However, if their parents asked me to assume guardianship, I would.

[Yamirskoonir]

Originally Posted by Captain Amazing

I could be wrong here, but I don't think, in the US, at least, being a "godparent" gives you any legal rights, and if, God forbid, his parents did die, that wouldn't neccesarily keep his grandparents from getting custody. All being a godparent means, I think, is that you agree to help raise the child as a Catholic. Of course, if you're not in the US, your country has its own laws, and it might be different there.

In that case, strike me as an idiot regarding the true meaning of "godparent." I suppose I had a more secular notion of the office -- that I would care for the child in the event his parents couldn't, that it had legal sway, that I would be like a surrogate mom and shower him with love and affection and basically be really involved in his life. I would make a very poor godparent indeed if I couldn't instruct him in the ways of the catholic faith!

Perhaps I should discuss with my friend the alternative option of finding him a different spiritual guide to be his "godparent," and finding a way to give me legal custody in case of an unfortunate event. And I'll still spoil the hell out of him.

Thanks for the replies, keep 'em coming!

[Yamirskoonir]

Originally Posted by WhyNot

I have several Spirit Daughters, and my responsibilities are as follows: To love and nurture them as my own daughters. To be available to answer any questions they have about life, the universe and everything. To be a voice of advice and a non-judgemental ear for their transition into womanhood. To share with them my wonder in the world, and enjoy sharing their unique perspectives on life. To teach them of the religious path I follow and that of their family (the two are not identical). To guide them in their development as spiritual beings and bring them closer to the Divine.

I am not the legal guardian upon parental death of any of them. They would go to other people, and my relationship with them would continue unchanged. However, if their parents asked me to assume guardianship, I would.

WhyNot, this is exactly what I thought I would be undertaking in agreeing to become the godmother of this child. Thank you for stating it so eloquently. And of course, I would do this for him whether I were the official godparent or not!

Originally Posted by Whynot

A child is not limited to two Godparents, even in the Catholic church. If it were me, I would you suggest to my friend that, if she MUST do a Catholic Christening to keep the family happy, she choose Catholic godparents for that ceremony. Another ceremony can be held anytime. Either she as the mother or someone else serving as the officiant can announce you Godmother, or Spirit Mother or whatever term you two like. You can discuss the details of what it means, and announce it to everyone then. You can then give the baby a token of your relationship if you choose.

This seems like a very reasonable, viable alternative, that still holds that "special" meaning and doesn't disrespect anyone's beliefs. I'll discuss with my friend.

Campion, thank a bunch for the section on Christian Witnessing, I had no idea it existed.

[Captain Amazing]

In terms of a legal relationship, keeping in mind that I'm not a lawyer, and not your lawyer, I believe that she can state in her will that you're to be the child's guardian if he's still a minor when she dies, but both you and she will want to check with an estate lawyer about that.

[John Carter of Mars]

I was baptized a Catholic, and my godmother, like the OP, was my mother's life-long best friend. She was Jewish.
How they accomplished this, I do not know. Soon after I reached the age of reason I lost interest in religion so it's not something I've thought much about. Still, in all my long life I never realized that a god-person had to be a confirmed Catholic! Live and learn.

WAG as to the scene when I was baptized: Back in their day, both Mom and Godmom were spectacular beauties. I know priests aren't supposed to be influenced by such, but knowing the personalities involved I can kinda' imagine what happened. First Mom and Godmom stopped for a few drinks on their way to the church, then it probably went something like this:
Mom: "Aw, c'mon, Pops!" *Pretends to mess with me, being carried on her chest, a blouse button comes open, by accident of course.* "She's a great gal and will raise him right, just like she says she will."

Godmom: "Oh, be a real sweet man and let me do this, please?" *smiles and bends over to ogle at the baby, revealing much cleavage*

Priest(breaking into a sweat): "Well, why the hell not? Just don't tell anybody...."

The years have intervened, and Mom and Godmom are now both gone, so there's nobody to ask.

Hopefully, you'll be able to work something out....

[Guinastasia]

If it's anything like being a confirmation sponsor, I believe godparents must VERIFY that they are indeed Catholic. I had to get a reccomendation from my aunt's pastor so she could be my sponsor.

I don't know if it's the same with godparents, but it wouldn't surprise me. And honestly, I don't think it's a very ethical thing to do-lying, that is.

[LifeOnWry]

I wonder if this varies from church to church? I mean, the rules are probably the same for all Catholic churches, but perhaps different churches choose not to follow certain bits? I'm godmother to a Catholic child who was baptised in a Catholic church and I was never even asked if I was Catholic, and the only paper I had to sign was an agreement to oversee the child's religious education in the event that his parents were unable to.

[sunfish]

LifeOnWry, when did you stand as godmother? If it was in recent years, the only thing I can think is that your friend must have been close to the priest who cleared you, because the Catholic Church is definitely much stricter now about who is allowed to serve as a godparent at baptism or a sponsor at confirmation than when I was in grade school (in the 70s).

When my older nephew was baptized almost 8 years ago, I was his godmother. I had to go back to my parish church to get some paperwork verifying my own baptism and confirmation dates. However, I was not a registered member of any parish, which would have presented problems I'm sure - what saved me (heh) was that the priest on duty in the rectory that day happened to be the retired monsignor who had known me since first grade, so he vouched for me anyway. When the time comes for my nephew to be confirmed, I'm fairly certain that I won't meet the requirements for being a sponsor since I'm not currently active in the Church.

[JRDelirious]

If it's in the Canon Code, it's Church Law for the whole of the RCC, no matter where. Local clergy may be more lax about who they let sign on in their particular parish/diocese out of practical considerations, just as long as they get a promise that the godparent will make sure the child is raised as a good Catholic. But that depends on the priests.

AND IIRC missing a godparent/having a godparent that doesn't really qualify, does NOT make the Batism "not official in the eyes of God" . Priest pours the water, invokes the Trinity, applies the salt-and-oil -- presto, Original Sin taken care of. It's between the noncompliant "godparent" and the Church that there will be an issue, NOT between the kid and God.

[LifeOnWry]

My godson was baptised in 1993, so not THAT long ago. But you may have a point - the priest who officiated is a friend of both the mother's family and of me. (Long story short - the mother is my step-cousin, the priest has known my stepcousin and me since childhood. He DOES know I'm not Catholic, though, which may be why he didn't ask.)

[Dewey Finn]

I was made godfather to my nephew in 1996 or 1997 and I'm not Catholic. At the time, I was told that only one of the godparents needed to be Catholic, and that the priest had no problem with my religion (or lack thereof).

[Uvula Donor]

Well, I'm as confused as everyone else here.

See, I'm non-religious, Mrs. Donor is Roman Catholic. UvulaDaughter was baptized Catholic, and her godparents are my best friend (athiest) and his wife (RC).

The priest had no problem with it at all.

I have a feeling it depends on how cool the local parish priest is with your circumstances.

And although I consider myself not to have "a religion" per se, I would not be comfortable lying about it to the Padre. (YMMV, I am not judging you or any decision you make, I'm just expressing my opinion.)

[Cunctator]

The following paragraphs from the current Code of Canon Law deal with the role of a sponsor (the technical term for what is colloquially known as a godfather or godmother). Canon 874 makes it clear that you need to be a baptised Catholic who has received the sacrament of confirmation in order to be a godparent. As a non-Catholic, you may act as a "witness" to the child's baptism.

Can. 872 In so far as possible, a person being baptised is to be assigned a sponsor. In the case of an adult baptism, the sponsor's role is to assist the person in Christian initiation. In the case of an infant baptism, the role is together with the parents to present the child for baptism, and to help it to live a Christian life befitting the baptised and faithfully to fulfil the duties inherent in baptism.

Can. 873 One sponsor, male or female, is sufficient; but there may be two, one of each sex.

Can. 874 ß1 To be admitted to undertake the office of sponsor, a person must:

1ƒ be appointed by the candidate for baptism, or by the parents or whoever stands in their place, or failing these, by the parish priest or the minister; to be appointed the person must be suitable for this role and have the intention of fulfilling it;

2ƒ be not less than sixteen years of age, unless a different age has been stipulated by the diocesan Bishop, or unless the parish priest or the minister considers that there is a just reason for an exception to be made;

3ƒ be a catholic who has been confirmed and has received the blessed Eucharist, and who lives a life of faith which befits the role to be undertaken;

4ƒ not labour under a canonical penalty, whether imposed or declared;

5ƒ not be either the father or the mother of the person to be baptised.

ß2 A baptised person who belongs to a non-Catholic ecclesial community may be admitted only in company with a catholic sponsor, and then simply as a witness to the baptism.

[JRDelirious]

Right. So if all that's needed according to Church Law is that one of the GPs be a Catholic, then if the "godfather" person has it covered, the OP need not lie, just say she's signing up as a Witness (if she is a non-Catholic nominal Christian).

For colloquial family-relationship usage, nothing prevents the family from going on calling the person "godmother" if that's what they feel best describes her role in the child's life. It's not like the Church will put a Cease and Desist on you.

And it means nothing WRT Legal Guardianship, it's exclusively for religious purposes.

[Atheist Princess]

I'm going to apologise right here and now for what I'm about to say as its going to offend someone, somehow, at some time. Sorry.

Anyway, I have never been baptised. I have no interest in religion. My parents don't particularly care for it either. But my older sister had my nephew 6 months ago and considering her husbands parents are Catholic, (they're not overly fussed) they decided that to avoid future conflict and criticism that they would baptise him and if he should want to persue religion at a later stage, he would have no poblems. So considering my sister and I are quite close, her husband has no sisters, and I'm over 16....guess who got asked to be GodMummy?

When the time drew nearer....we had a few bumps in the road. We found out that I indeed had to be Catholic. Not to mention that the grandparents didnt know that i'm not Catholic. So my sister, her husband and I had a quiet chat.

The result? I read the commandments, a couple of stories about David, Moses, Jesus and his death. I wore almost the exact same geddup as the Grandmother and for the day I was a Catholic. I never see the grandparents, my sister and brother in-law dont care, and neither do I.

My adivce....who cares? Obviously the mum doesnt, why should you? Its just a silly certificate. If the kid is baptised its going to heaven in the eyes of the church anyway. Just fake it. Its easy.





Once again, my apologies.

[JRDelirious]

Well, to some people, this is the kind of stuff you do not treat as "just a silly certificate". As the OP mentions, she IS Christian, just not Catholic. "Faking it" has problems in all branches of Christianity, and people have to live with themselves. Then again she loves her friend and wants to make her happy.

Still (and now it's my turn to apologize in advance) the initial posts kinda make the Mother sound like something of a "Holiday Catholic". They should really have a heart-to-heart as to whether the formality of baptismal godparenthood is what's needed for the role that they have in mind. (That Mom should tell the family to stop breathing down her neck about it, is another story)

[Tastes of Chocolate]

2 years ago, some very close friends had a baby. The mother is Catholic, the father is non-religious. They asked me to be a godmother to their son. I made sure that we both knew what they meant by godparent, and that they knew I'm not Catholic. We agreed on both. The priest didn't ask about my faith at all. I didn't lie.

The mother's brother also stood as godparent, and I've assumed he is Catholic, but I never asked, so the Church's requirements were met. I got to promise to help raise a wonderful little boy to be a wonderful adult, so the parents' requirements were met.

[cher3]

Being a godparent/sponsor in the Catholic church is related pretty much entirely to the spiritual upbringing of the child. In our case, the legal guardians of our kids are not the same people as their godparents.

It is quite possible that the priest at her church will ask for some verification that you are a Catholic in good standing. In our case the church preferred that the people not only be Catholic, but members of that parish.

However, there should be no obstacle to having you participate in the ceremony and she can call you a godparent if she wants to. You are also free to do all the things a godparent would. This has no legal standing, though. In order for you to get custody, she needs an ironclad statement in a trust or will.

[gardentraveler]

1) Sounds like the most important thing in this situation is to get the legal stuff worked out. Your friend really wants to make sure that you (and not the grandparents) take care of the child if that's ever required. Get yourselves to an attorney!

2) As you can see from this thread, canon law is observed more and less stringently depending on the parish/situation/country. I'd agree that the current trend is toward the more stringent side of the spectrum, but I'm sure that there are still lots of exceptions. If part of what you want to do is set an example for your godchild, you should go ahead and be a witness. I'm sure you'll be called the godmother regardless.

My goddaughter was baptized in Germany. Her godfather isn't Catholic. I don't know if he's officially listed as a witness or godfather, but I suspect the latter because the other godparents in the family are both Lutheran. Even though the role is officially a religious one, our role in the kids' lives is broader than that. We've been there when they started school, at birthdays, concerts, and other major events as well as at First Communion and (coming soon!) Confirmation.

GT

[Yamirskoonir]

You guys rock. Thanks so much for all of the replies!

JRDelirious, "Holiday Catholic" as you used the term is probably a very good way to describe my friend's attitude towards her religion. I even remember when she was baptized; we were in 5th grade, and she came to me and said: "My mom is becoming a catholic which means I am too. Want to come to my first communion?" It was more like an excuse to wear a pretty dress.
As for the whole "family breathing down her neck" thing...daddy comes from a Hispanic family, and mommy is a first American generation Filipino. It was a struggle for them to even get married, because of their parents' domineering religious and cultural views regarding courtship, role in the family (the youngest daughter's place in a Filipino family is at home taking care of the parents), intermixing races, etc. Much of what they do now is merely to please the parents and keep harmony. Of course, much of this would be relieved if they moved out of her parent's house, but that's another story!

Atheist Princess, thank you for your frank opinion (and no I'm not offended!). I'm also inclined to say "it's just a silly certificate" -- EXCEPT for the fact that this is something that millions of other people truly believe in. I'm not prepared to disrespect their beliefs and circumvent their practices based on my opinion of what they happen to believe in, or my desire to be there for my best friend's baby boy. That's why I posted the OP, searching for Doper knowledge about alternatives and to hear from Catholics on the gravity of the matter.

LifeOnWry, when my best friend's first child was baptized, the priest didn't even ask the religion of the godparent (our other best friend, who happens to be catholic). However, my friend is having the baptism done at a different parish this time, and they are strictly observing the canon, as is their right. I guess it really does vary from place to place, and depends on who you know.

Campion and Cunctator, thanks again for the cites on Canon law. I think I will ask my best friend to allow me to be a christian witness to the ceremony, and follow WhyNot's suggestion about still calling me "godmomma" anyhow in every sense but the catholic one. I'll also speak with her about securing legal guardianship in the event something unfortunate should happen.

John Carter of Mars, great story! Reminds me of me and my best friend in our more hellacious days. Got any more anecdotes to share?