How Many Philly Dopers Remember MOVE? This Pitting is for MOVE

[danceswithcats]

It's been over 30 years since MOVE was organized and started their shit in Philly.
Powelton Village was their first blot on the fabric of town, but it would not be their smallest or last. Hey-if you want to be a back to nature group, have a commune, and such, find yourself some land that isn't in a major urban area, in close proximity to universities, and spread all the garbage you want. I don't care if you have rats stacked ten deep, just don't do it in a city, assholes. That logic was too simple, as was the concept of obedience to the law. That was 1978.

Fast forward to 1985, where we had the same shit, different neighborhood. 63rd & Osage was their new place to be back to nature. Last time I checked, back to nature types didn't espouse their views with loudspeakers during the night. [Minor nitpick] Negotiations went to hell, and a bad plan was hatched. The short read is that a city block burned, and 11 members of MOVE died. The fire would have been extinguished in it's early stages if MOVE hadn't shot at members of PFD.
The full MOVE Commission Report here.

Today the paper shows MOVE supporters bitching about those of their group still incarcerated. Back to their old ways, bullhorn assaults on the neighbors of Osage Avenue marked the rally. One tidbit from protestor Orie Ross:

Our family can't be replaced.

The family of slain Officer James Ramp can say the same thing, fucker.

[DocCathode]

MOVE is a group of annoying morons. If you live in Philly this is just a basic fact of life. You can't make a real Philly cheesesteak without an Amoroso roll. Nobody knows all the words to Golden Slippers. MOVE is a group of annoying morons. That's just the way it is.

[Mr. Miskatonic]

Thankfully, since that time MOVE has been relatively quiet.

With the exception of Ramona Africa and here slander of the late Officer Faulkner at Free Mumia rallies. But at least those are legal assemblies.

And if nothing else, the 1985 incident should tell folks why it is bad to mix explosives.

[Stonebow]

Got to meet Ramona Africa in person a few years ago during one of my Afam Studies classes at UPenn. She was a guest lecturer brought in by one of my proffs- did her spiel, had a Q&A period afterword.
Suffice it to say, the questions (nothing rude, but certainly not softballs) were a bit more than she was willing to deal with, and she ended up walking out on the class.

I agree with the other assessments of both her character and MOVE. Morons.

[Esprix]

Originally Posted by DocCathode

If you live in Philly this is just a basic fact of life. You can't make a real Philly cheesesteak without an Amoroso roll. Nobody knows all the words to Golden Slippers. MOVE is a group of annoying morons. That's just the way it is.

Brilliant!

Oh, and you also realize that nobody bakes a cake as tasty as a Tastykake.

Esprix

[Shodan]

Originally Posted by Esprix

Brilliant!

Oh, and you also realize that nobody bakes a cake as tasty as a Tastykake.

Esprix

Shit, Esprix, the first time thru I read it as:

Oh, and you also realize that nobody bakes a cake as tasty as a Tastybukake.

And it upset me very much.

Regards,
Shodan

[mhendo]

Originally Posted by danceswithcats

Negotiations went to hell, and a bad plan was hatched. The short read is that a city block burned, and 11 members of MOVE died. The fire would have been extinguished in it's early stages if MOVE hadn't shot at members of PFD.

Wow. Nice way to simplify the issue. Ignore completely the fact that this is probably one of the most egregiously excessive uses of force in the history of American law enforcement, culminating in the police dropping of a bomb into a block of highly flammable rowhouses.

MOVE may well be the bunch of jackasses you describe, but when you gloss over the actions of law enforcement on that grim day, you don't do your credibilty a lot of good.

[vetbridge]

Originally Posted by danceswithcats

The short read is that a city block burned

I lived in Landsdowne for four years while in veterinary school. The first trip I made to Philly to hunt for living quarters I drove by the MOVE block by 63rd. I was shocked. It looked like something you would see in Beirut.

[danceswithcats]

Originally Posted by mhendo

Wow. Nice way to simplify the issue. Ignore completely the fact that this is probably one of the most egregiously excessive uses of force in the history of American law enforcement, culminating in the police dropping of a bomb into a block of highly flammable rowhouses.

MOVE may well be the bunch of jackasses you describe, but when you gloss over the actions of law enforcement on that grim day, you don't do your credibilty a lot of good.

Did I not identify it as a bad plan? Did I not link the full report which charges the PPD and the Mayor's Office with responsibility? By linking to authoritative URLs, I'd like to you illustrate how I've "glossed over" anything, or injured my own credibility.

Had I been in charge, the MOVE compound on Osage Avenue never would have been allowed to grow. YMMV

[mhendo]

Originally Posted by danceswithcats

Did I not identify it as a bad plan? Did I not link the full report which charges the PPD and the Mayor's Office with responsibility? By linking to authoritative URLs, I'd like to you illustrate how I've "glossed over" anything, or injured my own credibility.

A "bad plan"?

That was a "bad plan" the way that last year's tsunami was "a bit of water." Talk about understatement.

And i realise that your link gave the details. I was more concerned with the fact that, apart from the lame mention of a "bad plan" (giving no details in your post about what was bad about it), your only real critique was for MOVE's role in the affair, essentially blaming them for the results of the fire. It just seemed to me that, in any apportioning of blame for this incident, you might actually have taken the trouble to mention also the police department's egregious actions. YMMV.

[danceswithcats]

Yes, I do blame MOVE. As stated in my OP, you can't set up in an urban environment, create filth, annoy your neighbors, and attempt to be obtuse to municipal health and safety regulations, and expect to receive impunity. Read the whole history.

[Frank]

Originally Posted by danceswithcats

Yes, I do blame MOVE. As stated in my OP, you can't set up in an urban environment, create filth, annoy your neighbors, and attempt to be obtuse to municipal health and safety regulations, and expect to receive impunity. Read the whole history.

Of course not. Anybody who does all that deserves to have an incendiary bomb dropped on their house. Simple, really.

You can't think of anything the city could have done to deal with the situation more appropriately?

[mhendo]

Originally Posted by danceswithcats

Yes, I do blame MOVE. As stated in my OP, you can't set up in an urban environment, create filth, annoy your neighbors, and attempt to be obtuse to municipal health and safety regulations, and expect to receive impunity. Read the whole history.

I've read the whole history, and This Years Model beat me to the response.

If you feel that MOVE is to blame for the police decision to drop a bomb into a crowded city neighborhood, may i suggest you pull your head out of your ass and get some perspective?

[danceswithcats]

Originally Posted by mhendo

I've read the whole history, and This Years Model beat me to the response.

If you feel that MOVE is to blame for the police decision to drop a bomb into a crowded city neighborhood, may i suggest you pull your head out of your ass and get some perspective?

Kindly cite where I've stated that the explosives were a good idea? As far as perspective is concerned, you're cordially invited to fuck off. Is your opinion in the matter strengthened by a cheap shot at me?

You'd like to defend MOVE? Ah yes, the little dears were perfect neighbors, never a speck of trouble with from them. Horseshit. MOVE killed a police officer. They made Powelton Village a hell-hole for their neighbors, and did the same thing to other law abiding people on Osage Avenue. Yes, Wilson Goode authorized a stupid plan, but at the same time, I've always held that he was one of the worst people ever to occupy the office of Mayor. Without question, I'd have done things differently had I been Mayor or Police Commissioner, but that point is moot, as I didn't hold those positions.

I don't know what color the clouds are in your world, but in mine, I generally avoid problems with the police by abiding by the law, and accepting their authority. If I have a disagreement with them, it gets resolved in court, not with a standoff. Awesome concept.

[askeptic]

Yea, about that cite to the commision report...there is no report there. Oh and that cop they killed that was a few decades before they were bombed. If anything here is pitworthy I would say its the bombing not some unhygenic hippies.

[mhendo]

Originally Posted by danceswithcats

You'd like to defend MOVE?

Never defended MOVE once, moron. I just took issue with the fact that you apparently blame them for the police acting like a third-world terror squad.

And i should have known that you'd come back with the old "I generally avoid problems with the police by abiding by the law" bullshit. The fact that MOVE broke the law does not excuse the outrageous abuse of power by the police force. It's like people who argue in support of the Patriot Act by saying "If you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to worry about." It's a self-serving argument to justify oppression that happens to be aimed at people you don't like.

[danceswithcats]

Originally Posted by mhendo

Never defended MOVE once, moron. I just took issue with the fact that you apparently blame them for the police acting like a third-world terror squad.

And i should have known that you'd come back with the old "I generally avoid problems with the police by abiding by the law" bullshit. The fact that MOVE broke the law does not excuse the outrageous abuse of power by the police force. It's like people who argue in support of the Patriot Act by saying "If you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to worry about." It's a self-serving argument to justify oppression that happens to be aimed at people you don't like.

I really thought you were a better man than this. Rather than rational discussion, you've digressed into throwing insults. I didn't accuse you of defending MOVE-that funny looking punctuation sign framed it as a question. I haven't blamed MOVE for all of the actions taken by the Philadelphia Police Department, but they are damned sure responsible for some of those actions.

When you break the law, you should expect to suffer consequences. The PD didn't head to Osage Avenue in 1985 with the intent of oppression-they were intent on serving some arrest warrants and addressing public health and safety issues associated with unsanitary conditions. They were acting within the scope of their authority. Had the MOVE members submitted to those officers, the situation wouldn't have escalated.

It's sad that you consider abiding by the law to be "bullshit". Perhaps you might be right about one thing-I don't like cop killers, and I don't like people who thumb their noses at authority, and then whine and bitch when they get their asses handed to them.

[ParentalAdvisory]

So... where's MOVE.org?

[mhendo]

Originally Posted by danceswithcats

I really thought you were a better man than this. Rather than rational discussion, you've digressed into throwing insults. I didn't accuse you of defending MOVE-that funny looking punctuation sign framed it as a question.

That was really a genuine question, rather than a rhetorical accusation? Well, if so, then you did a pretty poor job of disguising it as a real question.

Originally Posted by danceswithcats

I haven't blamed MOVE for all of the actions taken by the Philadelphia Police Department, but they are damned sure responsible for some of those actions.

Never suggested otherwise. I have spoken about exactly one action in this thread—the action of dropping a bomb into an occupied city block.

Originally Posted by danceswithcats

When you break the law, you should expect to suffer consequences. The PD didn't head to Osage Avenue in 1985 with the intent of oppression-they were intent on serving some arrest warrants and addressing public health and safety issues associated with unsanitary conditions. They were acting within the scope of their authority. Had the MOVE members submitted to those officers, the situation wouldn't have escalated.

Yes, MOVE was to blame for escalating the situation. But no-one except the police were responsible for dropping that bomb. With their actions, the police endangered more people than MOVE ever did. And, as the subsequent investigations tend to show, they weren't really "acting within the scope of their authority" when they decided to turn a Philadelphia block into an inferno.

Originally Posted by danceswithcats

It's sad that you consider abiding by the law to be "bullshit". Perhaps you might be right about one thing-I don't like cop killers, and I don't like people who thumb their noses at authority, and then whine and bitch when they get their asses handed to them.

Nice misdirection. What i said was bullshit was your statement that you avoid trouble with the police by oberying the law, which also implied that MOVE's actions somehow vindicated the police overreaction.

I don't consider abiding by the law to be bullshit. I also have a lot of respect of law enforcement officers who act as genuine peace officers. My own stepfather is a retired cop. But in no situation that i can think of is dropping a bomb into an urban neighborhood an appropriate use of police authority, and while MOVE might have deserved to "get their asses handed to them," i'm sure the people who lived in the other 60-odd houses that were destroyed aren't especially thrilled that they had to pay such a price for the police force's incompetence and gung-ho idiocy.

[mhendo]

Originally Posted by danceswithcats

It's sad that you consider abiding by the law to be "bullshit". Perhaps you might be right about one thing-I don't like cop killers, and I don't like people who thumb their noses at authority, and then whine and bitch when they get their asses handed to them.

Your implication that the people involved in this incident were cop killers is just more misdirection. This murder of the police officer, as askeptic has pointed out, occurred well before this incident, and there were 9 people serving prison terms for the crime. But i guess that because they're all part of the same organisation, they all must be responsible, right?

[Esprix]

Originally Posted by Shodan

... nobody bakes a cake as tasty as a Tastybukake.

Yeah, you scare me.

Esprix

[Mr. Miskatonic]

Sadly, the bomb could have 'worked' without setting any fires. It was initially a low speed explosive designed for mining or other engineering uses. On its own it makes a big bang and knocks things away. No problem.

Then some FUCKING IDIOT MACHO MORON MIXED IN A BUNCH C4 INTO THE BOMB'S EXPLOSIVE. You can just hear the dipshit "Hey! Let's give this a little extra kick by packing in some of this killer stuff I got!"

C4 is a high-speed military explosive. This is why you do NOT mix explosives. The fast explosive burns, and spreads the slow explosive, which is of course burning. On its own the slow explosive would not start any fires. But when it gets spread out it is like any other explosive: just a combustable, and in this case one that is already burning thanks to the C4.

OK, so there is a fire. Fine. Put it out. These houses were built deacdes ago and are mostly timber and tar roofs.

Nope. Fuckheads let the damn things burn. MORONS MORONS MORONS!

I have no sympathy for MOVE, however. None, nada, zip, zilch. I am sick of their rhetoric and they've milked this incident (and Mumia) for all it is worth. They still cry for their cop-killing bretheren to be freed (which they were doing via loudspeakers before the seige).

I had a jury duty a few years ago, and in the pool I was in my walking partner (you line up in pairs) was former mayor Wilson Goode. He had been called in for jury duty (not a chance of serving, but gotta show you are a good citizen) and here i was walking with the man whose, decisions, along with those of his staff, burned a large portion of West Philly. I managed not to say anything, and I know why:

Nobody likes re-opening old wounds.

That, and no matter what idiocy Goode may have perpetuated: MOVE started the whole goddamn thing.

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

Don't think you had to be in Philadelphia to have heard of these people. The story was widely reported on the national news.

[Derleth]

Originally Posted by Mr. Miskatonic

That, and no matter what idiocy Goode may have perpetuated: MOVE started the whole goddamn thing.

I was with you 100% until this line. One hundred percent. Even when you declined to 'converse' with Goode when you had a chance.

Disproportionate force is never justified, doubly so when perpetrated by the police, triply so when mixed with fucknuttery. MOVE could have been starved out if it came to that (that is, if they couldn't be enticed to move any other way). Tear gas could have sped the process along. Hell, they could have gone Noriega on them and blasted Norwegian death metal until they came out begging for a truce. Anything would have been better than lobbing a bomb into the compound, and the police should have known that.

The police force doesn't exist to fight enemies. It exists to protect and serve, which includes protecting and serving criminals. As a society, we've decided that criminals are best served in our judicial system, so it is the job of the police force to get them to court as safely as possible. The only time a police officer is justified in using deadly force is when someone is credibly trying to kill him. That is complex and messy and open to long, acrimonious debate, but nothing I've heard from either side suggests that MOVE presented that kind of a threat to anyone.

Therefore, your statement is a non sequitur: It doesn't matter who started it, because the police force acted incompetently.

[danceswithcats]

A few points. Attempts were made by PPD to breach walls from adjacent units such that tear gas could be introduced. Those efforts failed owing to the fortifications of the MOVE compound. That said, I'd have favored shaped charges to breach those walls in lieu of the rooftop IED delivered.

Regarding "fuckheads let the damn things burn": PFD made attempts to extinguish the early fire, but were repelled by gunfire from the MOVE compound. Firefighters don't have body armor, we're not equipped to deal with that shit-we're not law enforcement. If you fire at me and my engine or truck company, I'll withdraw the assignment, and if you burn, that's your problem.

[Mr. Miskatonic]

Originally Posted by Derleth

I was with you 100% until this line. One hundred percent. Even when you declined to 'converse' with Goode when you had a chance.

Disproportionate force is never justified, doubly so when perpetrated by the police, triply so when mixed with fucknuttery. MOVE could have been starved out if it came to that (that is, if they couldn't be enticed to move any other way). Tear gas could have sped the process along. Hell, they could have gone Noriega on them and blasted Norwegian death metal until they came out begging for a truce. Anything would have been better than lobbing a bomb into the compound, and the police should have known that.

Are you kidding me? That's the tactic that Rizzo tried and managed to get the whole world looking at Philly as some kind of despot nation that was starving children. Why don't you look into the first MOVE seige and what a fiasco that turned into.

The police force doesn't exist to fight enemies. It exists to protect and serve, which includes protecting and serving criminals. As a society, we've decided that criminals are best served in our judicial system, so it is the job of the police force to get them to court as safely as possible. The only time a police officer is justified in using deadly force is when someone is credibly trying to kill him. That is complex and messy and open to long, acrimonious debate, but nothing I've heard from either side suggests that MOVE presented that kind of a threat to anyone.

Therefore, your statement is a non sequitur: It doesn't matter who started it, because the police force acted incompetently.

Yes they did. But MOVE built a fort. In a populated neighborhood. Are you telling me that wasn't asking for trouble?

[Mr. Miskatonic]

Originally Posted by danceswithcats

A few points. Attempts were made by PPD to breach walls from adjacent units such that tear gas could be introduced. Those efforts failed owing to the fortifications of the MOVE compound. That said, I'd have favored shaped charges to breach those walls in lieu of the rooftop IED delivered.

This much is true. However, the bomb on the roof was to get the bunker off.

Regarding "fuckheads let the damn things burn": PFD made attempts to extinguish the early fire, but were repelled by gunfire from the MOVE compound. Firefighters don't have body armor, we're not equipped to deal with that shit-we're not law enforcement. If you fire at me and my engine or truck company, I'll withdraw the assignment, and if you burn, that's your problem.

[/quote]

No. I can't buy this. That entire morning they had a freaking water cannon blasting the bunker for hours. There seemed to be no danger to the operaters of said cannon. At the very least they could have kept the fire from spreading.

[danceswithcats]

It's one thing to set up an unmanned aerial master stream devices and let it go. We do that with regularity in large scale fires. When the dynamics of fire changes, that device may need realignment. Unless I can have personnel perform that service safely, I refuse to deploy them. Having people shot at qualifies for an unsafe condition.