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  #1  
Old 07-19-2005, 02:01 PM
DMark DMark is offline
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Tell Me About ZIJA: Scam?

A woman at work casually mentioned she has started to take Zija...and mentioned it is quite expensive.

Her comments sounded a whole lot like a high powered sales pitch, and when I Googled "ZIJA" I was amazed to find page after page after page of Zija sales sites, in almost every language on earth.

Not only that, but there was a slight whiff of pyramid scheme going on with this product as well.

So - what is the real story behind Zija?

Snake oil for the idiot masses?
Harmless over-priced vitamin?
Dangerous un-regulated drug?
Get rich scheme for bored housewives?
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  #2  
Old 07-19-2005, 02:20 PM
Ike Witt Ike Witt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMark
So - what is the real story behind Zija?

Snake oil for the idiot masses?
Harmless over-priced vitamin?
Dangerous un-regulated drug?
Get rich scheme for bored housewives?
I've never heard of the stuff until just now. I am going to guess that it is potentally a bit of all 4 things. One strange thing, many of the sites about Zija and the Moringa tree use the exact same diagram to show the nutritional benefits.

And, I'll bet it tastes like ass without some serious flavour being added.
  #3  
Old 07-19-2005, 02:33 PM
Jurph Jurph is offline
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Regardless of whether it is healthy or not, the Zija pitch is the same tired multi-level marketing pitch you've seen hundreds of times before.
  #4  
Old 07-19-2005, 02:56 PM
DMark DMark is offline
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Originally Posted by adam yax

And, I'll bet it tastes like ass without some serious flavour being added.
Ha! She did mention it tasted like crap!

But if anybody can find a serious, scientific report on this stuff, I would appreciate it. Or if anyone has any first hand experience taking it, or selling it, that would be helpful as well.
  #5  
Old 07-19-2005, 06:16 PM
paperbackwriter paperbackwriter is offline
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Originally Posted by DMark
But if anybody can find a serious, scientific report on this stuff, I would appreciate it.
Short answer: there isn't much. Searching medline has 0 hits on Zija and 33 hits on Moringa tree extracts.

Documented effects include:

Unidentified compounds in the Moringa tree seed include a polypeptide (i.e. protein fragment) that causes sedimentation of suspended particles in water and has some anti-bacterial effects.concerns human health effects

A preliminary in-vitro indication that the tree may be a potential source of anti-cancer compounds (also as yet unidentified)

Various rodent studies studies have investigated various extracts of the Moringa tree in inhibiting penicillin-induced seizures in rats, inhibition of Herpes-induced skin lesions in rats, protection of the liver from anti-tubercular agents in rats, regulation of thyroid hormone in rats etc.

In short, the published research in peer-reviewed journals about the health effects of Moringa extracts appears to be very preliminary. It has had traditional use in Bangledeshi folk medicines, and may be a source of future compounds, but there are no peer-reviewed human trials.
  #6  
Old 07-19-2005, 06:28 PM
DMark DMark is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paperbackwriter
Short answer: there isn't much. Searching medline has 0 hits on Zija and 33 hits on Moringa tree extracts.
In short, the published research in peer-reviewed journals about the health effects of Moringa extracts appears to be very preliminary. It has had traditional use in Bangledeshi folk medicines, and may be a source of future compounds, but there are no peer-reviewed human trials.
Thank you paperbackwriter. You found more than I was able to find.

It seems kind of scary that there are hundreds of websites pushing this stuff as a miracle cure, and yet very little, if any, science to back up those claims.
  #7  
Old 07-19-2005, 08:25 PM
critter42 critter42 is offline
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What's even scarier is that this is just a piddlin' little player in the "alternative medicine" industry/scam.
  #8  
Old 07-19-2005, 10:14 PM
paperbackwriter paperbackwriter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMark
Thank you paperbackwriter. You found more than I was able to find.

It seems kind of scary that there are hundreds of websites pushing this stuff as a miracle cure, and yet very little, if any, science to back up those claims.
That's the norm, I'm afraid, for "miracle" cures. The number of disparate conditions that it claims to treat are also a red flag. Claims that a single herb, drug, oil, nostrum, or device can cure multiple disparate conditions almost never have any basis.

That is not to say, however, that all alternative medicine is a scam. There are some "cure-alls" that have been found to have specific or even multiple beneficial effects. For example, the original "wonder drug" was an extract from willow bark that has given us aspirin. Also, there are published studies that substantiate some alternative treatment modalities. To take another example, here are well-done studies on acupuncture that, while not proving the existance of chi, do prove it has a therapeutic effect that can match or even exceed anti-inflamatory drugs. Another example, one perhaps closer to the subject of the OP, is the studies that have been done on the beneficial effect of echinacea in depression.

What I'm saying is: blind trust or blind dismissal are both incorrect attitudes.

All the information I retrieved came from a free(*) public interface to the largest database of medical journal articles: PubMed. You have to know the jargon, and should talk to a profesisonal about the things you see there, but it is a great tool for research.

[size=small](*) Well maybe not free. You've already paid for it. Next time some-one cynically says "your tax dollars a work," point them here and show them some work that their tax dollars are doing.[/soapbox][/size]
  #9  
Old 07-19-2005, 10:42 PM
Measure for Measure Measure for Measure is offline
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References to the Moringa Tree seem to crop up in a developmental context as well, as the plant is reportedly drought-resistant. The quality of these cites is middling: eg Andrew Young accepts 20 Moringa trees.
  #10  
Old 05-16-2010, 05:32 PM
tnjaguar tnjaguar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMark View Post
A woman at work casually mentioned she has started to take Zija...and mentioned it is quite expensive.

Her comments sounded a whole lot like a high powered sales pitch, and when I Googled "ZIJA" I was amazed to find page after page after page of Zija sales sites, in almost every language on earth.

Not only that, but there was a slight whiff of pyramid scheme going on with this product as well.

So - what is the real story behind Zija?

Snake oil for the idiot masses?
Harmless over-priced vitamin?
Dangerous un-regulated drug?
Get rich scheme for bored housewives?
I just had my first run-in with Zija today at an alternative health event, and I suspect I'll be stumbling across more salespeople in the near future.

I won't go near the stuff again.

The stuff itself tastes like nothing. Weak tea, at best. There's a lot of powdery plant matter at the bottom of the cup, like fine tea leaf pieces. I've tried several of these "miracle" drinks, and it was quite clearly the worst AFA taste and appearance go.

It's the sales tactics and the ignorance of the salespeople about what they claim to sell, what health benefits it's supposed to have, and what side effects some people could have that turned me completely off.

The guy asked me about my allergies. I said which ones I had, and then I was handed a sample. After I had swallowed part of the drink, he praised the anti-inflammatory properties. One of the allergies I clearly stated is in the largest and best-known class of natural anti-inflammatory chemicals. I immediately became very concerned that this stuff might cause a real problem and really wished he had listened to what I clearly said. This guy completely blew it. He said nobody was ever allergic to the product, he could not tell me what the anti-inflammatory chemical was in the drink (if there really is one), he started saying that there were "no ingredients" in the drink (WHAT?), and then his assistant tried to say I was going to give myself an allergy if I didn't calm down (WHAT!?). He also started to raise some insulting questions about people at the event selling herbal teas, and even kept saying I had taken a bad batch of an herb I've never taken. I got away from them as fast as I could, got home and got some antihistamines in me. Fortunately, I'm fine (although slightly twitchy)... but there's no way in (pick your place of eternal torment of choice) I'll ever go near the stuff again.

By contrast, a lady at the same event selling herbal tea and other herbal mixtures had some of her batches clearly marked for people with my allergy, steered me away from ones that could also be a problem, and had a lot more class.

I'm not against natural/alternative health care by any stretch. I'm a firm believer in using modern and traditional health care together whenever it's safe and useful to do so. I am against people screwing around with this stuff without proper knowledge, making medical claims when they are not medical professonals, not understanding things like allergies and medicine reactions, and acting like jerks.
  #11  
Old 07-29-2010, 07:48 PM
sherriyvonne sherriyvonne is offline
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Zija

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMark View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by paperbackwriter
Short answer: there isn't much. Searching medline has 0 hits on Zija and 33 hits on Moringa tree extracts.
In short, the published research in peer-reviewed journals about the health effects of Moringa extracts appears to be very preliminary. It has had traditional use in Bangledeshi folk medicines, and may be a source of future compounds, but there are no peer-reviewed human trials.
Thank you paperbackwriter. You found more than I was able to find.

It seems kind of scary that there are hundreds of websites pushing this stuff as a miracle cure, and yet very little, if any, science to back up those claims.
I don't have any scientific evidence that this works but I can tell you it works for me. I have RA (rheumatoid arthritis), fibromyalgia, osteoarthritis and a really bad back. A friend gave me some samples of the powder and I tried them. After three days the swelling in my joints subsided and I haven't had this much energy in years. It is not like a "speed" energy, I just feel good. The side effects of Zija cannot be any worse than the side effects of RA medication, therefore I will continue to take it because it has improved my quality of life trememdously!
  #12  
Old 07-29-2010, 07:55 PM
Smeghead Smeghead is offline
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Originally Posted by sherriyvonne View Post
I don't have any scientific evidence that this works but I can tell you it works for me. I have RA (rheumatoid arthritis), fibromyalgia, osteoarthritis and a really bad back. A friend gave me some samples of the powder and I tried them. After three days the swelling in my joints subsided and I haven't had this much energy in years. It is not like a "speed" energy, I just feel good. The side effects of Zija cannot be any worse than the side effects of RA medication, therefore I will continue to take it because it has improved my quality of life trememdously!
Oh, good. A subjective anecdote. That finally clears that question up.
  #13  
Old 07-29-2010, 07:57 PM
Crown Prince of Irony Crown Prince of Irony is offline
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Oy vey - herbal medicines are the new Amway. My in-laws are in deep with an essential oils company that runs basically the same racket - wild, yet clinically unfounded claims of efficacy, that just barely skirt legality. And a boatload of profits on the back end, for the dude at the top of the pyramid - or more aptly, at the bottom of the funnel.

If it were truly and consistently effective and not due to a placebo effect, big pharma would be all over it, and have the price through the roof in no time.
  #14  
Old 07-29-2010, 10:24 PM
Fubaya Fubaya is offline
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Originally Posted by Smeghead View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sherriyvonne View Post
I don't have any scientific evidence that this works but I can tell you it works for me. I have RA (rheumatoid arthritis), fibromyalgia, osteoarthritis and a really bad back. A friend gave me some samples of the powder and I tried them. After three days the swelling in my joints subsided and I haven't had this much energy in years. It is not like a "speed" energy, I just feel good. The side effects of Zija cannot be any worse than the side effects of RA medication, therefore I will continue to take it because it has improved my quality of life trememdously!
Oh, good. A subjective anecdote. That finally clears that question up.
Also, in case no one noticed, that poster just joined and that's their only post. Hmm...
  #15  
Old 07-29-2010, 11:34 PM
paperbackwriter paperbackwriter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sherriyvonne View Post
I don't have any scientific evidence that this works but I can tell you it works for me. I have RA (rheumatoid arthritis), fibromyalgia, osteoarthritis and a really bad back. A friend gave me some samples of the powder and I tried them.
No offense, but that's literally meaningless. I have OA, my wife has FM and RA, and I can tell you that in any given three days there will be random fluctuations in all these conditions that make the pain and energy symptoms go from horrible to almost unnoticable.

How do you know that you didn't have a random fluctuation that coincided with your feeling better? The honest answer is: you don't.

And that's without even touching the placebo effect aspect.

The reason that the scientific community insists on large double-blinded trials is not to cut off promising new therapies. Hell, developing new therapies is what the researchers I've known live for. The reason that these designs are the standard of what's "real" and what is quackery is because they work. If a large number of people that don't know what they are getting get better, and anyone can reproduce those results, then they are not random or placebo.

Zija can't produce that level of proof. They can barely even demonstrate any effect in vitro or in lab animals.

Any promises that Zija representatives make based on the current state of knowledge are empty ones.
  #16  
Old 07-30-2010, 02:41 PM
md2000 md2000 is offline
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I remember once looking at some supposedly good intestinal yeast crap that, like the fancy yogurts, was supposed to be good for your intestinal tract. The symptoms it supposedly treated sounded good. I found all sorts of sites on the internet saying how good it was... then the alarm bells went off.

First was the hundreds of dollars a month you needed to spend, for months or years, to take this stuff. Then the sites were all very similar in the stories they told. Astroturfing? The symptoms - tiredness, bloating, weight gain, headaches, no energy, etc. - all seemed general enough to cover anything.

So I doubt there are any magical herbs or treatments or cures you can find on the internet that are not known and promoted by local real doctors... I it was that good, everyone would do it.
  #17  
Old 07-30-2010, 03:16 PM
TerpBE TerpBE is offline
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I'd be willing to guess it's a lot like Zrii, which was recently featured on "Penn & Teller's Bulls---":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PVKv...eature=related (NSFW language)

Products like these are generally just created so that they aren't technically a "pyramid scheme" (which would be illegal).
  #18  
Old 08-31-2010, 10:50 PM
RunTellThat RunTellThat is offline
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They should change the name from Zija to "Joke" because that's exactly what it is. I was one of the foolish ones who was talked in to being a Distributor...paid my money for the overpriced products not because I wanted to recruit others into the business but because I actually believed all the health claims they made to me and I was going to purchase a recurring supply of the product for myself and my family every month. How ridiculous and foolish of me. After the 4th month of seeing $90.00/month come out of my checking account and being constantly harassed by the "borderline insane" so called leaders through the constant text messages, phone calls, emails and conference/training calls I said enough is enough. I wanted out....well trust me it wasn't easy...they're nice to you when you sign up but when you want out it's like you're trying to leave a cult. The products didn't help any of my health issues and I couldn't pay my kids to drink it because it looks like fungus water and tastes awful!
  #19  
Old 08-31-2010, 11:04 PM
RunTellThat RunTellThat is offline
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Sorry...I forgot to add that my first red flags should have been when I learned that a lot of the well known so called Networking Marketing Gurus from other companies like Tahitian Noni, Monavie etc. had jumped ship at those companies after those ponds dried up and they're now at Zija draining that well of new unsuspecting sillies like me. I won't be too hard on myself I had sense enough to get out quick and I did so before being brainwashed into bringing all of my friends/family on board.

Zija is green...green means go.....run when you see them coming.
  #20  
Old 09-01-2010, 08:15 AM
Smeghead Smeghead is offline
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This is merely the latest in a long, long line of magical fruit juice slash herb pyramid schemes. They show no sign of slowing down.
  #21  
Old 09-01-2010, 08:56 AM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Unwanted side effects may include zombification.
  #22  
Old 10-19-2010, 03:12 AM
running coach running coach is online now
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Spam reported.
  #23  
Old 10-19-2010, 04:46 PM
Derleth Derleth is offline
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Originally Posted by paperbackwriter View Post
That is not to say, however, that all alternative medicine is a scam.
You know what they call 'alternative medicine' that works? Medicine.
  #24  
Old 10-26-2010, 08:43 PM
DaBabysDaddy DaBabysDaddy is offline
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WoW! This is killing me! I am ready to jump into this as a business and as a personal help... NOT CURE... to some of my medical issues! If it helps me and I choose to become a distributor... And the people that purchase it through me believe it helps them and we all start to make a little money and we all fell good... What's the problem!?? None of the people that have approached me have stated anything other than what is on the Websites! They are not doctors and none claim to be! CONFUSED NOW!!
  #25  
Old 10-26-2010, 08:45 PM
Ferret Herder Ferret Herder is offline
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Originally Posted by DaBabysDaddy View Post
WoW! This is killing me! I am ready to jump into this as a business and as a personal help... NOT CURE... to some of my medical issues! If it helps me and I choose to become a distributor... And the people that purchase it through me believe it helps them and we all start to make a little money and we all fell good... What's the problem!?? None of the people that have approached me have stated anything other than what is on the Websites! They are not doctors and none claim to be! CONFUSED NOW!!
What's the problem? Spending tons of money to buy stuff that's not demonstrated scientifically to have any real effect and tastes like crap? What more of a downside do you need?
  #26  
Old 10-26-2010, 08:51 PM
DaBabysDaddy DaBabysDaddy is offline
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What's the problem? Spending tons of money to buy stuff that's not demonstrated scientifically to have any real effect and tastes like crap? What more of a downside do you need?
Tons of Money???? $90 Bucks a month... thats my investment! Where I come from and on my income... I piss way $90 bucks in a night out! I have tasted alot of medicines that my mom said were good for me and every one of them tasted like crap!
  #27  
Old 10-26-2010, 09:05 PM
DaBabysDaddy DaBabysDaddy is offline
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Plus... thr things that are offered as proven on the websites are proven! Things like, the absorbtion of the drink versus ordinary multi vitamins! The amount of nutrients contained in the drink! Now as stated in other people's posts... results will vary! Maybe it wont help some folks! Then they dont buy anymore and they are done with the product! But let's just suppose for a moment... it does help!? It's a reletively new company (in the big scheme of life)! I have spoken to indipendent doctors about Zija... They look into the product and cannot dispute the facts! If the nutrients are there... then it cannot be wrong! This many nutrients will HELP the body! What is wrong with that!?
  #28  
Old 10-26-2010, 09:23 PM
EmAnJ EmAnJ is offline
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Wow!!! Overuse! Of! Exclamation Marks!!!!!?
  #29  
Old 10-26-2010, 09:26 PM
DaBabysDaddy DaBabysDaddy is offline
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LOL! Sorry! I am addicted to"..." and "!" Everything I say... I say with feeling and conviction! Thus, the "!" is justified and the "..." is just my brand of sentence separation! LOL!
  #30  
Old 10-26-2010, 10:11 PM
Smeghead Smeghead is offline
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Originally Posted by DaBabysDaddy View Post
Plus... thr things that are offered as proven on the websites are proven!
Proven how? By whom? Where are the results published? What studies have been done? Were they peer-reviewed? Who funded them? What was the methodology?

Saying "it's proven" is just words unless there's data to back it up.
  #31  
Old 10-26-2010, 10:25 PM
paperbackwriter paperbackwriter is offline
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The "proof" offered for Zija is, as mentioned above, scientifically worthless. If it's nutrients you're after, eat a balanced diet. Everything else claimed for Zija is either untestable, vague, or flat-out wrong. For example, what exactly do they measure to regarding: "The absorbtion of the drink versus ordinary multi vitamins!"(sic)?

If you make your acquaintance with your local farmer's markets or at least spend more time in your grocer's produce aisle, you'll get everything you seek from Zija, in a form that is provably highly bioavailable, and save yourself the 90 bucks. Actually, you might see you food budget go down even more than that.
  #32  
Old 10-27-2010, 05:56 AM
Ferret Herder Ferret Herder is offline
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Yup. Plain old food is absorbed a lot better than multivitamin pills, not to mention almost certainly better than some nasty-tasting tree seed supplement.
  #33  
Old 10-27-2010, 08:27 AM
DaBabysDaddy DaBabysDaddy is offline
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Man, You guys are killin me! The only thing that I find is that Zija Representitives are telling people, is that food these days compared to, like back in ther 60, is that that through all of the packageing and processing, food has lost some of thier nutrients (which is proven) and that in todays husltle abd bustle people dont have time to eat right and this stuff helps fill that void! Your right a balanced diet does help but does not give you everything you need! And as for saving money... I eat a fair amount of fruit... ie: Apples, Oranges, Pears, Bananas, Grapes... Have you bought them lately? The prices are NUTZ! I am not saying anything about any MIRACLE CURES... but, I believe that for the ON THE GO type lives that we lead... the nutrients and vitamins that this product provide... you cant go wrong! Just my Opinion! Sorry guys! Just where is the proof we landed on the moon in the 60's!? Do you guys believe that Elvis is on an Island somewhere too!? (lol)
  #34  
Old 10-27-2010, 09:14 AM
Dewey Finn Dewey Finn is offline
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I don't understand. Fruit "prices are NUTZ" but you "piss way $90 bucks in a night out", so you have no problem spending the ninety dollars on this crap each month?
  #35  
Old 10-27-2010, 09:32 AM
DaBabysDaddy DaBabysDaddy is offline
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It wasn't my point to be made! Some one else said something about the cost of Zija... I stated that I piss Away 90 bucks in a night... But then they talk about eating fruit... I was mearly making a statement about someone complaing about the cost and then someone else suggesting I eat FRUIT! I probably spend $30 a week or more just in Fruit! That shizz is expensive! So let's get my budget straight... that's $90 on Zija... $120 on Fruit... and if I go out, say... 3 nights a month thast $270... for a total of... {cash register sounds} {Cha Ching} $480!
  #36  
Old 10-27-2010, 09:35 AM
Ferret Herder Ferret Herder is offline
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No kidding. You can get a bag full of apples for $3, versus some crappy-tasting supplement that hasn't even been formally tested in a rigorous, scientific fashion.

Edit: I'll give you a budget tip - cut the Zija. That's way more expensive than anything actually proven to be good for you like nutritious fruits and vegetables. You could buy all-organic and still save money.

Last edited by Ferret Herder; 10-27-2010 at 09:37 AM..
  #37  
Old 10-27-2010, 09:41 AM
crowmanyclouds crowmanyclouds is offline
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The obvious unasked question!!! How much!? Should I spend!!!!! On SPAM!!!??!!!!!?

CMC fnord!
  #38  
Old 10-27-2010, 09:43 AM
DaBabysDaddy DaBabysDaddy is offline
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No kiddin... a bag of apple has squat in it nutrient wise.... compared to Zija! You get what you pay for! and a bag of apples has what... 5 apples?? You guys are all hung up on this rigorous scientific testing aren't ya! Have you seen the test on McDonal's Food and all the other Shizzz out there! And America eats that like crazy! I don't see your names on any website bashing them or the people that spend $100's of dollars a month on that garbage... but, you will come on here and kill a product that is trying to do something healthy... whether it does it or not...(Which I am convinced it is) it gets people thinking healthy and out of McDonalds!
  #39  
Old 10-27-2010, 09:57 AM
DrFidelius DrFidelius is online now
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Actually. five years ago someone came here and asked our opinions. We gave them. Our opinions have not changed as to the effectiveness or cost/benefit ratio of the product, and they are staying here on the Straight Dope board. it is not as if we are bothering to counter-evangelize the product anywhere else on the interwebs.

Our opinions are not going to change because one of the company's sales force found the thread through Googling.
  #40  
Old 10-27-2010, 10:24 AM
Ferret Herder Ferret Herder is offline
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Originally Posted by DaBabysDaddy View Post
I don't see your names on any website bashing them or the people that spend $100's of dollars a month on that garbage...
You obviously haven't searched here on that topic, then.
  #41  
Old 10-27-2010, 10:56 AM
fluiddruid fluiddruid is offline
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Originally Posted by DaBabysDaddy View Post
No kiddin... a bag of apple has squat in it nutrient wise.... compared to Zija! You get what you pay for! and a bag of apples has what... 5 apples?? You guys are all hung up on this rigorous scientific testing aren't ya! Have you seen the test on McDonal's Food and all the other Shizzz out there! And America eats that like crazy! I don't see your names on any website bashing them or the people that spend $100's of dollars a month on that garbage... but, you will come on here and kill a product that is trying to do something healthy... whether it does it or not...(Which I am convinced it is) it gets people thinking healthy and out of McDonalds!
I don't see your "name" on websites promoting non-violence and ending world hunger, either. What does that prove?

The point is that "trying" doesn't mean shit, even if the makers of Zija were "trying" to do anything except make lots of money on an expensive and disgusting tree-bark potion, which I do not believe. If I'm "trying" to help people, I will not sell them an expensive elixir based on wild, unsubstantiated claims. Whether or not the product has mild health benefits compared to something completely non-comparable like a known unhealthy diet consisting of high-fat, high-carb fast food is really immaterial to the discussion. The relevant questions are:

- Does the product have the health benefits that its producers claim? (No)
- Is there any scientific evidence that this potion has any benefit over a normal diet including fruits and vegetables? (Nope)
- Given the lack of actual evidence for health benefits, is there any reason why people should be paying exorbitant amounts of money for bad-tasting juice? (Not so much)

Last edited by fluiddruid; 10-27-2010 at 10:58 AM..
  #42  
Old 10-27-2010, 10:59 AM
Smeghead Smeghead is offline
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So. You have no proof. No evidence. No information. Just endless rehashing of the same old tired bullshit that has been used to sell worthless crap to people since the dawn of time, or at least the dawn of marketing. What makes this latest incarnation any different from Ol' Doc McGillicutty's Home Remedy Snake Oil?

You ask what's the harm. The harm is that it's a SCAM. You are taking peoples' money and giving them nothing of value in return. That is dishonest and wrong. The fact that other people and companies may arguably be doing something similar is utterly irrelevant.

The day that reason and intelligence are finally enthroned as the guiding principles of society is the day that you, this company, and all other similar companies are permanently put out of business.
  #43  
Old 10-27-2010, 11:20 AM
CrimeThink CrimeThink is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBabysDaddy View Post
You guys are all hung up on this rigorous scientific testing aren't ya!
Yeah! You guys keep your high-falutin' facts and book-learnin' comments to yerselves cuz we ain't listnin'!
  #44  
Old 10-27-2010, 12:00 PM
SirRay SirRay is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeghead View Post
What makes this latest incarnation any different from Ol' Doc McGillicutty's Home Remedy Snake Oil?
Well, ZIJA is probably not 20% alcohol for one...
  #45  
Old 10-27-2010, 02:20 PM
lost4life lost4life is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2002
What exactly is schizz? Is that taken from schizznit or from fo' shizzle? I need to keep up my street cred.
  #46  
Old 10-27-2010, 03:15 PM
SCSimmons SCSimmons is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBabysDaddy View Post
Man, You guys are killin me! The only thing that I find is that Zija Representitives are telling people, is that food these days compared to, like back in ther 60, is that that through all of the packageing and processing, food has lost some of thier nutrients (which is proven) and that in todays husltle abd bustle people dont have time to eat right and this stuff helps fill that void! ... Sorry guys! Just where is the proof we landed on the moon in the 60's!? Do you guys believe that Elvis is on an Island somewhere too!? (lol)
Wait--did you just mock someone for believing that men walked on the moon, but not believing that food has somehow (in general) lost its 'nutrients' (?!) in the past fifty years?

Um, OK ... I'm moving to Elvis's island, it's getting way too weird around here.
__________________
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"You won't like me when I'm angry. Because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources." -- The Credible Hulk
  #47  
Old 10-27-2010, 04:13 PM
paperbackwriter paperbackwriter is offline
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Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,698
DaBabysDaddy, I'm normally not this blunt, but you are having some basic problems with critical thinking on this subject. It really makes no difference to me one way or the other whether you personally waste your money on this, but it does matter that your inchoate protestations are possibly representative of others that might be reading. Thus far, you've shown no readiness to actually read what's being posted on this subject, but are instead picking out a phrase here or there and arguing (badly) from ignorance.

That all said, I will make one more attempt to give you some actual, factual, information that may help you (or others) make an informed decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBabysDaddy View Post
You guys are all hung up on this rigorous scientific testing aren't ya!
Yes. It is rather indicative that you would mock another for asking for rigorous scientific testing before trusting their claims of health benefits. To repeat what I said earlier: There has been no rigorous scientific testing in humans for any health claims in Zija, other than claims that are true of many other fruit juices. That is, it is impossible to scientifically say that Zija has health benefits other than that it contains a number of nutrients. If all you want is vitamins, drink V-8.

Let's stop talking in generalities, though. Let's talk about what's actually claimed as benefits of Zija by its promoters:
Quote:
Vitamins Vitamin A (Alpha & Beta-Carotene), B1, B2, B3, B5, B6, B12, C, D, E, K, Folate (Folic Acid), Biotin, and much more
Minerals Calcium, Chloride, Chromium, Copper, Fluorine, Iron, Manganese, Magnesium, Molybdenum, Phosphorus, Potassium, Sodium, Selenium, Sulfur, Zinc
All 8 Essential Amino Acids Isoleucine, Leucine, Lysine, Methionine, Phenylalanine, Threonine, Tryptophan, Valine
10 Additional Amino Acids Alanine, Arginine, Aspartic Acid, Cystine, Glutamine, Glycine, Histidine, Proline, Serine, Tyrosine
Other Beneficial Nutrients Chlorophyll, Caretenoids, Cytokinins, Flavonoids, Omega (3,6,9) oils, Plant Serols, Polyphenols, Lutein, Xanthins, Rutin, & many more
As impressive as this list looks to the uneducated, there is a host of problems with the impression it gives:
  1. There is absolutely no information on how much Zija contains for any of these nutrients. Is there enough of the 8 essential amino acids? Many of the minerals listed are actually heavy metals; are there dangerous levels of some of them? The tolerable upper limit for Selenium is a mere 400 micrograms a day. That amount wouldn't even cover the period at the end of this sentence. By not disclosing these amounts, Zija promoters have deprived you of what you need to answer to judge its nutritional effectiveness.
  2. They are playing games with some of the listings. Some are effectively listed twice. They list Chloride and Sodium separately to increase the impression of lots 'n lots of nutrients. Together, however, they are only ordinary table salt (and no person eating a Western diet needs to have more table salt in their food). This also applies especially in the "other nutrients section," where they list a number of chemical classes that are subsets of already-listed chemicals.
  3. They must obviously be something unique about Zija if it has all this, right? In reality, everything that Zija has that your body needs you can get from a balanced diet. Actually, Zija is deficient is some respects. Going back to the amino acids, even if they include the right amounts of each essential amino acid they are missing Glutamate and Asparagine. You'd do better by eating a chicken breast.
  4. Many of the "other beneficial nutrients" are large classes of chemicals. They might as well list, "Stuff." Polyphenols, for example are any chemical that has more than one group of 6 carbon atoms arranged in a closed ring sharing chemical bonds joined to an oxygen atom. At least 5000 polyphenols have been identified. Some polyphenols have indeed been identified to have positive health benefits, but hardly all of them are health. Which ones does Zija have? You don't know, and apparently neither do Zija promoters.
  5. Lastly, they use wallpaper phrasing like "and many more" to cover up, well, what? You don't know what those many more ingredients are, whether you actually need them, or how much of them they include.
But like I said, there's nothing really unique about these claims. If you do indeed eat almost nothing but McDonald's and drink to excess (as you imply you do), then Zija might balance out a really poor diet. Eating a healthy diet would do everything this list claims and more, and probably for less money.

All this is, however, secondary to Zija's real claims:
Quote:
The Amazing Z-Atin
Z-Atin improves the effectiveness of balanced nutrients in the body-including the treasure trove of nutrients you're already getting just by drinking Zija. Z-Atin literally sets your nutritional process in motion.

Created by one of the world's foremost nutrition formulators, Z-Atin is the perfect, balanced, natural combination of zeatin, quercetin, beta-sitosterol, caffeoylquinic acid, and kaempferol, naturally found in Moringa oleifera.

ZEATIN: Enhances the effectiveness of antioxidant and anti-aging compounds.

QUERCETIN: A vital flavonoid with antioxidant properties. It is one of the best naturally occurring anti-inflammatory agents available.

BETA-SITOSTEROL: Blocks "bad" cholesterol absorption from food, normalizes blood sugar, enhances the immune system, and acts as a supreme anti-inflammatory agent.

CAFFEOYLQUINIC ACID: Exhibits significant anti-inflammatory activity.

KAEMPFEROL: Proven to encourage healthy cell growth and function.
Here we get to the meat of the matter -- is there any good science for these claims? Let's take them one by one:
  • "ZEATIN: Enhances the effectiveness of antioxidant and anti-aging compounds." No. It doesn’t have any proven synergistic effect in humans on other anti-oxidants. It does have proven effects in preventing inflammatory damage to human skin cells, but that’s not what they claim.
  • "QUERCETIN: …one of the best naturally occurring anti-inflammatory agents available." Quercetin is an anti-oxidant, but there’s little research about comparative anti-oxidant or anti-inflammatory effects. Considering the sheer number of chemical compounds that have some anti-inflammatory or anti-oxidant effect, declaring one of them “one of the best” is at the very least, horribly premature.
  • "BETA-SITOSTEROL: Blocks "bad" cholesterol absorption from food, normalizes blood sugar, enhances the immune system, and acts as a supreme anti-inflammatory agent." The first of these claims is just plain wrong: "bad" cholesterol is a popular over-simplification of high-density lipoprotein. Lipoproteins are transport mechanisms for cholesterol; the cholesterol transported is the same whether linked to HDL or LDL. In other words, you don’t absorb "bad" cholesterol from food – you synthesize it internally. The cholesterol content in your diet is only tenuously linked to your blood cholesterol level in any event. The other three claims are completely unsupported by research, meaninglessly vague, and as bad as the claim about quercetin, respectively.
  • "CAFFEOYLQUINIC ACID: Exhibits significant anti-inflammatory activity." The only meaningful and true claim made.
  • "KAEMPFEROL: Proven to encourage healthy cell growth and function." Another meaninglessly vague claim.

So, here is your choice: Look into good nutrition, or pay whatever these folks want to charge you for fruit juice.

Oh, and I might suggest you look into learning about the period. It’s a very useful punctuation device.
  #48  
Old 10-27-2010, 05:58 PM
Yllaria Yllaria is offline
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Location: Stockton
Posts: 8,126
That is a thourough and easily-read analysis, paperbackwriter. Thanks.

Looking at the spot where it says, "Blocks "bad" cholesterol absorption from food, normalizes blood sugar, . . . " it seems to be hinting that if you have high cholesterol and diabetes, you can skip the medication and good diet and just drink this. I'm guessing that would very much NOT be a good idea.
  #49  
Old 10-27-2010, 07:29 PM
Smeghead Smeghead is offline
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My hat's off to you, paperbackwriter, for having the energy and patience to produce that post.
  #50  
Old 10-27-2010, 08:32 PM
DaBabysDaddy DaBabysDaddy is offline
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Paperback Writer! ( No periods... I love the exclamation point) Periods, as grammatically correct as they are... are boring! Enough on that! (lol)

I am impressed with the analysis!

I don't drink alcohol at all! When I piss away money, it's on the never ending Bull Shizz that my wife and kids can deem necessary and they can't live without! Important things like Light up Sneakers and Silly Bands. (lol)

And, I would never snub and opposing opinion or an intelligent debate on the effectivness or ineffectivness of this product. I too, found this thread through a Google Search. I am / was searching for all of the bad info to be had on this product. (Used a Period) And, to be honest this was all I could find. The Discovery Documentary, that Zija so boldly presents as evidence, and all of the doctors used to promote the nutritional findings, seem to be on Zija's Payroll. I am not an idiot! I figured all of that out from the beginning! But, even you said that it "could" offset a poor diet or even a diet lacking some nutrients. (another period) And yes, maybe they do side-step some of the quantities of the nutrient contained... I see that and noticed it before I got on here.

I am not trying to "Sharp Shoot" anyone or Promote anything or convince anyone that ZIJA is anything more than a supplement "of sorts" I am on a fact finding mission. I am not a distributor... yet! In fact I just drank my first can today! Strangly enough... I feel like SUPERMAN!! Just kidding, I am being sarcastic there, but really...

Do you have a bigger problem with the cost and the fact that they are making millions off of a over-priced can od vitamins and minerals? Or are you more upset that they are Over Inflating the affects of the "Snake Oil" or a combo of both!

My position is that, I am a 50 year old dude that struggles to eat a balanced diet, with no time to get in a good exercise program, I have extra money to spend on a supplement and I am Just at the end of a 3 month "life changing" diet! I do not even call it a diet now, because it has become apparent that my metabolism has slowed down to a crawl! I am 70" 178 now... down from 220! I was never obese just had a "Poor Diet's Big Belly"! I went from @ 5000 calories to about 1400! I also eat a ton of EXPENSIVE fruits and veggies now! I am taking Metabolife Ultra to keep my body from going into "FAT STORAGE" mode. (WoW, a third peiod! I am starting like this thing) I also have mild Arthritis in my knees, from being Rode Hard and Put Away Wet, by the Army! (I take Fish Oil Pills and an Occaisional Naproxen for the artritis)

This "ZIJA GUY" has presented his product and I feel it does have some nutritional value! Maybe not the Miracle Cure that some feel that Zija claims to be, but "some" nutritional value.

Would it still be your position that I am not doing the right thing by swallowing a can or two of this stuff a day? And... In a month or so, if I feel better, continue it! If it doesn't make a noticable difference... I will consider it another $90 bucks just pissed away! Nothing Ventured nothing Gained!

Not looking for a fight... just some INFO!
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