Um, there was also a disaster in Iraq

[Cat Whisperer]

I know everyone in the U.S. (and Canada, too, for that matter) are very concerned about the Gulf coast and the damage done by Katrina, but there was also a Very Bad Thing in Iraq yesterday, too - latest figure I see, 800 killed in the bridge stampede.

Can we spare a moment from feeling bad about people in Louisiana and Mississippi and feel bad about people in Iraq?

[CWN]

I do feel bad but in all honesty we may have lost thousands of our neighbors and friends- It does not dimission the lose in Irag but give us some time for local morning

[GorillaMan]

If this were the pit, I'd be saying a lot.....here, I'll restrict myself to saying thank you to featherlou for making a reasonable post about something that is in danger of being completely ignored.

[CWN]

Geez I do hope spelling does not count

[Shagnasty]

It is worth noting. However, I doubt many people remember the small tragedies that happened in the U.S. and abroad around 9/11. They happen almost every day in fact and we only get to see some of them. The only reason this one made is because we are occupying Iraq. Saddam used to poison his own people by the thousands are we rarely heard about it.

I only have so much mental energy. I will focus on the Gulf Coast and Louisiana in particular because that is where I am from and where people I know and love live. I don't know any Iraqis and I have never been there so it is hard to form a mental image of the event. Likewise, I doubt many Iraqis are getting all teary eyed about what is happening to the Gulf Coast.

[GorillaMan]

Originally Posted by Shagnasty

II doubt many people remember the small tragedies that happened in the U.S. and abroad around 9/11.

Which specific incidents were these, that involved a thousand deaths? Normally rants about whether it is "really all that big" are hollow....when a thousand people die in a single place at the same time, it's different.

[Saddam used to poison his own people by the thousands are we rarely heard about it.

Errrr George, we've got one of your bots here, he's stuck about eighteen months in the past

[The Great Sun Jester]

If there were an honorable form of pity I'd feel it for the Iraqis. Those folks get the shitty end of the stick every time. It'd be nice if they could enjoy a little respect from larger, more powerful countries and if they could just be allowed to live for a few years without some douchebag organization or other trying to brutalize the masses. Terrorists OWN those people, as evidenced from this scene. They're not doing too bad a job on The West either given the liberties we're willing to sacrifice to them.

I have known a few Iraqis personally. Some were highly educated engineers, others were your average Marwan or Nabila factory worker or grade school teacher. I never met a one who thought their own politcal/religious slant was worth murdering someone over. They do, in the main, like themselves some Islam and it's by far a more evident part of their lives than Christianity is in most of ours. Which makes the fear they have to endure as a consequence of worship that much more horrible.

This thing was very VERY sad. I don't imagine too many people who died wanted much more than to be left the hell alone to get it on with Allah.

[Cunctator]

Of course both events have been tragic, but it seems fairly natural that American coverage will focus on the domestic event at the expense of the international one. That reaction is common in all countries. It doesn't mean that there are no feelings of pity or sorrow about the loss of life in Iraq - just that people's focus will be on the tragedy that's close to home.

[Fugazi]

Another possibility is that while what happened in Iraq is terrible and tragic, it is pretty much over. It has been pretty well reported, but there's no "breaking news" about it.

The hurricane aftermath is far from over.

[Moirai]

Yeah, but if some asshole had yelled "fire" in a crowded movie theater over here, people would be going nuts. Which may be basically what happened.

What happened to those people is actually more horrifying to me, because it appears to have been the direct result of someone's utterly evil intentions. Natural disasters aren't quite the same thing.

[Eve]

May I ask who elected featherlou Queen of Grief? Do we have to check in with you and get your okay before we know who and what we are obligated to publicly feel bad about, and exactly how bad?

[CWN]

Originally Posted by featherlou

I know everyone in the U.S. (and Canada, too, for that matter) are very concerned about the Gulf coast and the damage done by Katrina, but there was also a Very Bad Thing in Iraq yesterday, too - latest figure I see, 800 killed in the bridge stampede.

Can we spare a moment from feeling bad about people in Louisiana and Mississippi and feel bad about people in Iraq?

featherlou
I have never in my brief career pitted anyone.I have always enjoyed your post's
but forgive us for mourning our dead and dying
I am still a fan of yours
Len

[Ogre]

Also, Typhoon Talim has killed at least 24 people, and more is expected when it hits mainland China.

On the other hand, I don't understand why GorillaMan wishes this were in the Pit. Pardon the shit out of us for not being quite as concerned about the stampede in Iraq when some of our friends and family may be floating facedown in a lake. We all KNOW about Iraq. It's on the front page of CNN.

WE KNOW.

[Otto]

[Not Necessarily The News, circa 1983]

"An airliner crashed today, killing all 247 passengers and crew. Fortunately, there were no Americans aboard."

[/NNTN]

[percypercy]

Yes I feel bad for them. But I'm about *this close* to setting off on a rant. And that's all I'll say.
-Lil

[JillGat]

Originally Posted by Otto

[Not Necessarily The News, circa 1983]

"An airliner crashed today, killing all 247 passengers and crew. Fortunately, there were no Americans aboard."

[/NNTN]

What specifically are you and featherlou suggesting we do about the stampede deaths in Iraq? I mean other than take a moment to "feel bad" about them? As I recall, many American people responded with heartfelt generosity to the victims of the tsunami in SE Asia last year. Please give us examples of ways that you are planning to alleviate the grief and suffering experienced by the Iraqi pilgrims, their families and loved ones.

I don't mean to sound patriotic here. It is not just self-centeredness, racism, xenophobia or any other evil traits that make human beings feel it more deeply when people close to them - or even just similar to them - experience tragedy and upset. It's human nature. Let me ask you this: if your child, or even your dog, was hit and killed by a car tomorrow, would you spend that day grieving as much about a plane that went down in Peru?

It's also human nature to be more horrified by a natural disaster of this scale that has destroyed a huge region, will cause ongoing environmental, health and economic wreckage for some time, as well as probably over a thousand deaths and tens of thousands left homeless.

So yeah, please spend equal time grieving about the many shocking and depressing events (including huge scale starvation going on in parts of Africa right now). Then look at what resources or skills you have that could be put to work making a difference. Let us know your plan.

[Cat Whisperer]

You are all reading way more into this than I intended; I have come to count on this board to keep me informed and up-to-date on important happenings in the world, and when I saw zero attention being given to what is obviously a serious tragedy, I opened this thread. Feeling compassion for the Iraqis does not take away from the compassion for people suffering on the Gulf Coast; like another poster said recently, it's not a zero sum game.

[C3]

Originally Posted by featherlou

You are all reading way more into this than I intended; I have come to count on this board to keep me informed and up-to-date on important happenings in the world, and when I saw zero attention being given to what is obviously a serious tragedy, I opened this thread. Feeling compassion for the Iraqis does not take away from the compassion for people suffering on the Gulf Coast; like another poster said recently, it's not a zero sum game.

Why didn't you just open a thread about the Iraq story? Why did it have to include anything about the hurricane at all?

[TellMeI'mNotCrazy]

Originally Posted by featherlou

You are all reading way more into this than I intended; I have come to count on this board to keep me informed and up-to-date on important happenings in the world, and when I saw zero attention being given to what is obviously a serious tragedy, I opened this thread. Feeling compassion for the Iraqis does not take away from the compassion for people suffering on the Gulf Coast; like another poster said recently, it's not a zero sum game.

This might be easier to accept if the thread's title was "There was a deadly stampede in Iraq" rather than "Um, there was also a disaster in Iraq", which implies that Americans have been to self-centered to notice. Especially given this last line of your OP:

Can we spare a moment from feeling bad about people in Louisiana and Mississippi and feel bad about people in Iraq?

which implies that it IS a zero-sum game, that we can't be worried about both at the same time.

Of course the things that happen in Iraq are important, and of course Americans should be concerned about them. But did anyone say to the tsunami victims "What the hell is your problem? Don't you know that 100 military troops died this month?" Is anyone telling the families of the people killed in this stampede - "Yes, but many of the people who are fighting here are losing their homes or loved ones back home to a natural disaster?" How many Brits heard "Suck it up, the bombings are nothing compared to the Spanish train bombings"?

Why is it self-centered for Americans to focus on the biggest natural disaster in recent history that is happening on their own shores? I am not a Bush supporter. I am not a war supporter. I think everything that is happening in Iraq is horrendous and hideous and unnecessary. But I still think that what is happening in the southeast US is a massive tragedy, and yes, at this moment, I am probably thinking of what's going on there than I am about anything else going on in the world - important or not. You get a phone call saying that someone you care about has just lost everything they ever had, and tell me just how much you're going to be thinking about something that is happening to people you don't even know at the same time.

[Tuco]

Just so you all know the Iraqi stampede was before Katrina in the news here in the UK yesterday, today it's changed back to Katrina first.

[Cat Whisperer]

Originally Posted by TellMeI'mNotCrazy

This might be easier to accept if the thread's title was "There was a deadly stampede in Iraq" rather than "Um, there was also a disaster in Iraq", which implies that Americans have been to self-centered to notice. Especially given this last line of your OP:



which implies that it IS a zero-sum game, that we can't be worried about both at the same time.<snip>

It was intended to be a gentle nudge, that yes, you are having an un-precedented catastrophe in the U.S., but the world hasn't stopped as a result. Note - a GENTLE nudge. It is obviously not being taken that way, and I regret that. I probably should have had the foresight to realize that any criticism (gentle or otherwise) of Americans at this point would not have been taken well.

[Grey]

Originally Posted by featherlou

It was intended to be a gentle nudge, that yes, you are having an un-precedented catastrophe in the U.S., but the world hasn't stopped as a result. Note - a GENTLE nudge. It is obviously not being taken that way, and I regret that. I probably should have had the foresight to realize that any criticism (gentle or otherwise) of Americans at this point would not have been taken well.

I'm pretty sure if Victoria or Ottawa had been washed away Canadians might be focused on domestic death and destruction instead of the +800 people stampeding off a bridge thousands of miles away. You're being petty.

[Shagnasty]

Originally Posted by featherlou

It was intended to be a gentle nudge, that yes, you are having an un-precedented catastrophe in the U.S., but the world hasn't stopped as a result.

Most of us did assume that the world had stopped due to what happened on the Gulf Coast (it has been daytime here for three days). Newspapers are carrying nothing but Katrina coverage from front to back and all TV and radio stations have been comandeered to focus on nothing but what is happening in New Orleans. I notice that a virus has changed my default web page to WWL New Orleans and I assume that it has for everyone else. If it weren't for foreigners on this message board I would have no idea what to care about anymore.

[TellMeI'mNotCrazy]

Originally Posted by featherlou

It was intended to be a gentle nudge, that yes, you are having an un-precedented catastrophe in the U.S., but the world hasn't stopped as a result. Note - a GENTLE nudge. It is obviously not being taken that way, and I regret that. I probably should have had the foresight to realize that any criticism (gentle or otherwise) of Americans at this point would not have been taken well.

My point is, the criticism, and the nudge, are unwarranted. It's not a case of thin-skinned Americans not being able to handle criticism - hell I'm the one criticizing Americans half the time.

Seriously, if you can step back, imagine that a catastrophe had hit both Canada and America at the same time, and someone opened a thread and said "Uh, there was a tornado in the US," and tell me that you would not be in the least insulted, then fine. And while this comment isn't directed at you personally, I would bet there would be a pit thread lambasting those selfish Americans for only thinking of themselves so quickly, my head would spin.

[Otto]

Originally Posted by JillGat

What specifically are you and featherlou suggesting we do about the stampede deaths in Iraq?

I'm not suggesting anyone do anything about anything. I'm making a comment about how the phenomenon of Americans in general being more concerned about American lives and deaths than non-American lives and deaths is hardly a new trend in American thinking.

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted by Eve

May I ask who elected featherlou Queen of Grief? Do we have to check in with you and get your okay before we know who and what we are obligated to publicly feel bad about, and exactly how bad?

I realize this isn't the Pit, so I'll attempt to keep this as civil as possible, but who or what shoved the stick up your ass? Featherlou's post said absolutely nothing about obligatory grief--it was merely, in my reading, a plea for compassion for victims of another disaster in danger of being overshadowed by the enormity of our own domestic catastrophe. What, may I ask, is wrong with that?

[Anaamika]

Originally Posted by GorillaMan

Errrr George, we've got one of your bots here, he's stuck about eighteen months in the past

I have to admit, this is freakin' hilarious.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Otto

I'm not suggesting anyone do anything about anything. I'm making a comment about how the phenomenon of Americans in general being more concerned about American lives and deaths than non-American lives and deaths is hardly a new trend in American thinking.

Or, indeed, in basic human nature. You're not honestly suggesting that this is somehow uniquly American, are you?

Anyway, I've been feeling sorry for Iraqis for the past four years or so. But I'm afraid I'm going to have to cut them off, at least for the next couple of weeks. I've got bigger things to worry about right now.

[Queen Tonya]

Originally Posted by Q.E.D.

What, may I ask, is wrong with that?

'Twas the not quite gentle nudging part.

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted by Queen Tonya

'Twas the not quite gentle nudging part.

Seemed gentle enough to me:

Originally Posted by featherlou

Can we spare a moment from feeling bad about people in Louisiana and Mississippi and feel bad about people in Iraq?

Could the title have been phrased a bit better? Sure. But, I try not to judge the content of a post by its title alone.

[Ogre]

Can we spare a moment from feeling bad about people in Louisiana and Mississippi and feel bad about people in Iraq?

Absolutely not. I don't have to "spare a moment." I, and everybody else, am quite capable of doing both at the same time.

Now, if you'll pardon me, I'm off to find out if one of my best friends is a dead, bloated corpse floating down the street. You'll pardon me, I hope, if I'm a teensy bit more concerned about that than the situation in Iraq.

[Otto]

Originally Posted by Miller

Or, indeed, in basic human nature. You're not honestly suggesting that this is somehow uniquly American, are you?

I have no idea. I've never seen Not Necessarily the News from any other country.

[Cat Whisperer]

I'm going to ask a Mod to close this thread - I had absolutely no intention of creating hard feelings, and it obviously has done that. I mis-judged the situation, and mis-judged the level of response. I am sorry if this thread has made anything worse for anybody.

[SkipMagic]

Closed at the request of the OP.