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Old 09-16-2005, 11:37 AM
Diogenes the Cynic Diogenes the Cynic is offline
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I know I shouldn't condone this high school ass-kicking...

...but damn, if ever a "victim" was trolling for a bitchslap it was this idiot.
Quote:
"What's up with your shirt?"

Those are the words a former senior at Fleming Island High School remembers hearing as he walked from his fifth-period algebra class toward the gym. The 18-year-old, who is not being identified due to his family's concerns of safety, had just taken off his Dixie Outfitter T-shirt, exposing a highly offensive shirt.

"What about it?" replied the 18-year-old, skinny and white.

"Well, you know it's racial," said a black student, now in a group confronting the 18-year-old.

"Yeah. So?"

The undershirt the white student wore had a confederate flag on the front with the words "Keep it flying." On the back, a cartoon depicted a group of hooded Klansmen standing outside a church, waving to two others who had just pulled away in a car reading "Just married."

Two black men in nooses were being dragged behind.

Upset by the shirt, a 17-year-old black student hit the white student in the head. A crowd of about 100 students gathered to watch the Aug. 29 fight before authorities intervened.
I know that technically the black student should have simply brought the shirt to the attention of a teacher or administrator but I have to confess that it's more viscerally satisfying to know that little Jethro got something upside his mullet. I know that makes me wrong. I don't care. I'm not saying it was right, I'm just saying it was satisfying.

The kid with the shirt was suspended but has not yet returned to the school.

Quote:
He said he was supposed to go back on a Friday but school officials called and asked his family to keep him home until the following week because "the school's in an uproar."

"Everybody was threatening to come jump me, so we were like, whatever," he said. "So I'm not going to deal with it over some stupid shirt."
Some more of the student's articulate and thoughtful comments include the following:
Quote:
"I'm not racist or anything," he said. "It's just, some people I hate, some people I don't get along with. And black people just happen to be the ones because they think they're better than everyone else."

The student said his parents were shocked at his decision, Mom dismayed and Dad disappointed.

"I just can't believe you'd wear a shirt like that to school," he said was their reaction. "My mom was kind of upset about it. My dad was like, whatever, it's your life."

<snip>

"I'm a redneck," he said. "But no, I'm not racist."
It was also interesting to see this part:
Quote:
He said he put the shirt on in the morning because he planned to wear it to a party that night with others who, like him, had enlisted in the Marines.
I guess getting his ass beat in high school isn't hardcore enough for him. I hope he gets a black drill sergeant.
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  #2  
Old 09-16-2005, 11:41 AM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
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We are a nation of laws, and I support punishment for the kids who lay the beatdown on him. That doesn't mean I don't cheer them on; and if their punishment is to perform community service at the local NAACP office, all the better.

Daniel
  #3  
Old 09-16-2005, 11:43 AM
FriarTed FriarTed is offline
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DAMMIT, DIOGENES! STOP POSTING THINGS I HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU ON!!!!

I think this is the second time.


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  #4  
Old 09-16-2005, 12:07 PM
Lady of the Lake Lady of the Lake is offline
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I think I may be corrupted by lurking too much here.

I read the attached article and thought:
What a racist dumbass. But, my next thought was: Well at least he supports gay marriage!
Quote:
On the back, a cartoon depicted a group of hooded Klansmen standing outside a church, waving to two others who had just pulled away in a car reading "Just married."
  #5  
Old 09-16-2005, 12:10 PM
Larry Borgia Larry Borgia is offline
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"My Dad was like, whatever, it's your life."

Man, that's good parenting!
  #6  
Old 09-16-2005, 12:14 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady of the Lake
But, my next thought was: Well at least he supports gay marriage!
Me, too.

As for th OP, well, shit happens. The white kid seems like a jerk.
  #7  
Old 09-16-2005, 12:16 PM
Airman Doors, USAF Airman Doors, USAF is offline
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Sometimes, as a parent, you have to let a child learn the consequences of their actions. I don't know that I would be indifferent in this case. In fact, I'd probably beat my own son silly and save them the trouble if he wore a shirt like that. But I can see where the father might have wanted his son to learn a (relatively painless) lesson before he went out on his own and maybe got killed for something like that.

Sometimes you just have to let someone take their lumps.

As for the other kids, good on them. They should be punished, yes, but let's make sure the punishment fits the offense. Beating down a racist merits community service at worst, and easy community service at that.
  #8  
Old 09-16-2005, 12:21 PM
Mr. Moto Mr. Moto is offline
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The idiot with the shirt won't last long in the military with attitudes like that.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if his deferred entry was invalidated as a result of this stupid stunt.
  #9  
Old 09-16-2005, 12:22 PM
Frank Frank is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airman Doors, USAF
As for the other kids, good on them. They should be punished, yes, but let's make sure the punishment fits the offense. Beating down a racist merits community service at worst, and easy community service at that.
Is the "fiighting words" defense just a legend? 'Cause if it's not, this case fits if anything does.
  #10  
Old 09-16-2005, 12:23 PM
Casey1505 Casey1505 is offline
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He got suspended from school, but is enrolled in a community college?
  #11  
Old 09-16-2005, 12:32 PM
Skald the Rhymer Skald the Rhymer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic
...but damn, if ever a "victim" was trolling for a bitchslap it was this idiot.

I know that technically the black student should have simply brought the shirt to the attention of a teacher or administrator but I have to confess that it's more viscerally satisfying to know that little Jethro got something upside his mullet. I know that makes me wrong. I don't care. I'm not saying it was right, I'm just saying it was satisfying. ....
I have the same reaction to this as I have to foolish actions by other young black men at work: I feel obliged to point out the error in the young brother's thinking. In particular, by striking the other person without PHYSICAL PROVOCATION, he only validated the notions of other white supremacists that we persons of the chocolate persuasion are undisciplined, foolish brutes. In other words he acted to perpetuate the attitude he was protesting against.
  #12  
Old 09-16-2005, 12:36 PM
Cat Whisperer Cat Whisperer is offline
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I noted this part of the article:
Quote:
The 18-year-old said he has friends who are black, and he said he does not think they would be mad at him because they know he would not do what was depicted on the shirt.
I don't think so. If my friend surprises me by wearing a hate message t-shirt, I need to re-think my friendship, because I wouldn't knowingly *be* friends with someone who would wear a t-shirt like that and think nothing of it.

But he's not a racist. He just thinks t-shirts depicting violence against black people because they're black is a hoot. But it's okay for him to not like black people because they're uppity. I think my brain is hurting.
  #13  
Old 09-16-2005, 12:43 PM
AncientHumanoid AncientHumanoid is offline
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The only cure is...
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Old 09-16-2005, 12:46 PM
SkeptiJess SkeptiJess is offline
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Yeah, the OP is hard to disagree with.

You know who I really feel sorry for? The school officials who had to deal with this nonsense. I'll bet they were wishing they could give the racist little fucker a new crack in his ass, too.
  #15  
Old 09-16-2005, 12:56 PM
Metacom Metacom is offline
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Well... I disagree with the OP. I don't think what happened is in any way satisfying: a white kid with sad, misguided feelings towards black people got his ass kicked by a black person. The white kid is going to come out of this hating them even more, and because the attitude so many previous posters have exhibitted will probably be common, the black kid is going to come out of it thinking violence is an appropriate way to respond to an insult.

It just sucks all around.
  #16  
Old 09-16-2005, 01:00 PM
silenus silenus is online now
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Someone should forward the details of this little incident to the Marine Corps when the redneck's name becomes public knowledge. They'll cancel his enlistment in a heartbeat.

My one complaint about the way it was handled was that the black student aimed for the idiot's head. It's solid bone, bro! You'll hurt your hand that way. Aim for the solar plexus, then knee him in the face as he folds. Don't you people learn anything in school?
  #17  
Old 09-16-2005, 01:01 PM
OtakuLoki OtakuLoki is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey1505
He got suspended from school, but is enrolled in a community college?

Public schools are somewhat split on how to deal with suspensions. Even if a child (read minor) is expelled there is still the obligation for the child to be educated. Usually this will work out, AIUI, to having the child being transferred to a special school in the disctrict or in a nearby district that deals with problem cases. Sometimes, for highschool students they get sent to local community colleges. I don't know exactly what happened here, but that's not really a shocker to my mind.

As for the OP. Umm...

I really am sorry to say that I believe the kid who did the hitting has to be punished. It is not acceptable behavior.

Having said that, community service at the NAACP sure works for me as an appropriate punishment.

And the idiot wearing the t-shirt needs a black DI. In a mostly black boot company. I don't know that he needs to finish his boot training, but he should start it, at least.
  #18  
Old 09-16-2005, 01:13 PM
Scumpup Scumpup is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silenus
Don't you people learn anything in school?

You people?
  #19  
Old 09-16-2005, 01:13 PM
OtakuLoki OtakuLoki is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metacom
Well... I disagree with the OP. I don't think what happened is in any way satisfying: a white kid with sad, misguided feelings towards black people got his ass kicked by a black person. The white kid is going to come out of this hating them even more, and because the attitude so many previous posters have exhibitted will probably be common, the black kid is going to come out of it thinking violence is an appropriate way to respond to an insult.

It just sucks all around.

I don't think that anyone is saying it was appropriate, Metacom. There's a vast difference between admitting sympathy for a law-breaker (or alleged one, since the kid hasn't been tried, yet.) and approving of his actions. Part of the reasoning I have, and am inferring, for the (repeated) suggestion for NAACP service is, in part, to show the kid that non-violent methods are often more effective in the long-term. It's education as well as punishment.

As for the white kid - honestly, if he can't see anything wrong with that t-shirt, I honestly doubt that anything would be able to open his eyes. Yes, this experience will make him feel more of a victim, for no good reason in his own view. But, how does one open the eyes of someone like that?
  #20  
Old 09-16-2005, 01:32 PM
Earthworm Jim Earthworm Jim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Borgia
"My Dad was like, whatever, it's your life."

Man, that's good parenting!
I don't know, I kind of agree. As both a father and a son myself, I'll say that sometimes you just have to let the scars of learning happen. The boy's 18 years old. He can drive and vote and enlist in the Marine corps. He's past daddy telling him what he can & can't wear.
  #21  
Old 09-16-2005, 01:37 PM
World Eater World Eater is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metacom
Well... I disagree with the OP. I don't think what happened is in any way satisfying: a white kid with sad, misguided feelings towards black people got his ass kicked by a black person. The white kid is going to come out of this hating them even more, and because the attitude so many previous posters have exhibitted will probably be common, the black kid is going to come out of it thinking violence is an appropriate way to respond to an insult.

It just sucks all around.
Since you stole my post, I'll agree with yours 100%

Everybody loses in this situation.
  #22  
Old 09-16-2005, 01:38 PM
Skald the Rhymer Skald the Rhymer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtakuLoki
I don't think that anyone is saying it was appropriate, Metacom. There's a vast difference between admitting sympathy for a law-breaker (or alleged one, since the kid hasn't been tried, yet.) and approving of his actions. Part of the reasoning I have, and am inferring, for the (repeated) suggestion for NAACP service is, in part, to show the kid that non-violent methods are often more effective in the long-term. It's education as well as punishment.

As for the white kid - honestly, if he can't see anything wrong with that t-shirt, I honestly doubt that anything would be able to open his eyes. Yes, this experience will make him feel more of a victim, for no good reason in his own view. But, how does one open the eyes of someone like that?
The total perspective vortex should do it. (Actually the point of view gun would be better, but I'm not going to admit to having seenthe hitchhiker's movie.) I have one of each, and I'd volunteer it for the task, except, as you might gather from this thread, I'm being evil this week.
  #23  
Old 09-16-2005, 01:56 PM
silenus silenus is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scumpup
You people?
General reference to students, from a teacher. Don't read anything into it that isn't there.
  #24  
Old 09-16-2005, 02:07 PM
Sean Factotum Sean Factotum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Moto
The idiot with the shirt won't last long in the military with attitudes like that.
Then you served in places that had a much better climate. I was surrounded by guys that thought like the kid with the shirt, and they naturally assumed I felt the same way as them because I looked like them.
"So, Sean, when you going to have kids? Because the world needs more smart white guys contributing to the gene pool."
  #25  
Old 09-16-2005, 02:27 PM
Skywatcher Skywatcher is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtakuLoki
how does one open the eyes of someone like that?
Cover his body with mercurachrome and dump him in the middle of a Klan rally.
  #26  
Old 09-16-2005, 02:33 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silenus
General reference to students
I believe the correct term is Academic-Americans.




  #27  
Old 09-16-2005, 02:33 PM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Moto
The idiot with the shirt won't last long in the military with attitudes like that.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if his deferred entry was invalidated as a result of this stupid stunt.
If the military accepts him (not very likely), I predict he will receive some "unofficial" attitude adjustments from his own squad or company unless he changes his tune. Ya know, "he fell down the stairs - a lot. Nah, I didn't see it"
  #28  
Old 09-16-2005, 03:06 PM
Taber Taber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic's article
"I'm not racist or anything," he said. "It's just, some people I hate, some people I don't get along with. And black people just happen to be the ones because they think they're better than everyone else."

I like the "I'm not racsist, I just don't like black people." Did he just give up trying to think of a justification?
  #29  
Old 09-16-2005, 03:37 PM
Ogre Ogre is offline
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Not only is the kid a racist, but he's stupid as a brick, too? Great, just what the world needs.
  #30  
Old 09-16-2005, 03:50 PM
RickJay RickJay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogre
Not only is the kid a racist, but he's stupid as a brick, too?
Where exactly do you think most racists come from? It isn't usually the high end of the IQ scale.
  #31  
Old 09-16-2005, 03:53 PM
Neurotik Neurotik is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taber
I like the "I'm not racsist, I just don't like black people." Did he just give up trying to think of a justification?
What are you talking about? He had a justification. He just doesn't like people who think they're better than everyone else. And black folk are all like that. If those black people just knew their place and didn't act all uppity, he wouldn't have a problem with them. So, really, it's their fault.
  #32  
Old 09-16-2005, 04:04 PM
Ogre Ogre is offline
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I honestly don't think he had the mental wherewithal to rationalize his hate to that extent. I think this kid simply takes up space and oxygen, and will probably never do much of anything worthwhile on this earth, like so very, very many others.
  #33  
Old 09-16-2005, 04:07 PM
Marley23 Marley23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metacom
I don't think what happened is in any way satisfying: a white kid with sad, misguided feelings towards black people got his ass kicked by a black person.
You're not totally wrong, I just can't feel sad about it. But it's not as if the kid didn't know what the shirt meant, or why people were upset about it. He even understands how he's supposed to respond to being called a racist. I don't think the beating is going to matter. He'll either realize he's an idiot at some point, or he won't. People looking the other way at this stupidity probably wouldn't help either.

At some point, and I'm not saying I know where and when it is, I think you stop being "misguided" and start being "an asshole."
Quote:
because the attitude so many previous posters have exhibitted will probably be common, the black kid is going to come out of it thinking violence is an appropriate way to respond to an insult.
If you mean "any other white kids who wear shirts like that to school will probably get a beatdown also," I can only say that even though it's wrong, I kind of hope that's true.
  #34  
Old 09-16-2005, 04:12 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metacom
The white kid is going to come out of this hating them even more.
I'm not convinced this is true. He was wearing a shirt making fun of murdering black people and dragging their corpses behind a car. I'm not sure that getting punched will increase his hatred of black people.

Daniel
  #35  
Old 09-16-2005, 04:13 PM
Mtgman Mtgman is offline
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Where do you even GET such a shirt? Holy crap, what self-respecting shirt printer would even MAKE such a thing?

Enjoy,
Steven
  #36  
Old 09-16-2005, 04:25 PM
JohnBckWLD JohnBckWLD is offline
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So, a sizeable plurality of posters this SDMB thread have no problem with the concept of one-man vigilanteism - provided the crime is an ignorant speech / expression issue?

We're all still opposed to frontier justice in capital cases and sex crimes though, right?
  #37  
Old 09-16-2005, 04:29 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBckWLD
So, a sizeable plurality of posters this SDMB thread have no problem with the concept of one-man vigilanteism - provided the crime is an ignorant speech / expression issue?
What does "no problem" mean? Most everyone here has said that the head-puncher should face appropriate punishment.

Quote:
We're all still opposed to frontier justice in capital cases and sex crimes though, right?
What does "opposed" mean? I say that folks who dispense frontier justice in such cases should face appropriate punishment.

There was a case a few years ago in which a guy was exposing himself to a bunch of Catholic schoolgirls, and they chased him down the street, tackled him, and roughed him up pretty bad (no permanent injuries, if I recall correctly). I had a real hard time being angry at those girls.

If your version of frontier justice involves murdering people, though, then yeah: I oppose it. There's a big difference between knocking an asshole in the head and putting a bullet in the asshole's head.

But in all cases, I'll not oppose appropriate punishment for vigilantes, even if sometimes I'm happy about their vigilantism.

Daniel
  #38  
Old 09-16-2005, 04:39 PM
mhendo mhendo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airman Doors, USAF
Beating down a racist merits community service at worst, and easy community service at that.
I disagree completely.

I oppose punishing people in the courts for their thoughts and the words, and i'm equally opposed to people taking things into their own hands like this. While i must admit to sharing some of the OP's visceral sense of satisfaction, i think the guy did the wrong thing, and he deserves whatever punishment is normally meted out for assault. And, as others have observed, beating up racists is unlikely to do anything to stem or counter racism.

This Year's Model proclaimed that the "fighting words" exception to freedom of speech applies in this case. I'm wondering if TYM or anyone else actually has any evidence to support this assertion, or if it's just wishful thinking. I'd love to hear from one or more of the SDMB lawyers on this issue, because in my (layman's) understanding, the "fighting words" exception is usually only valid when it involves a direct threat of imminent action.
  #39  
Old 09-16-2005, 04:45 PM
danceswithcats danceswithcats is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBckWLD
So, a sizeable plurality of posters this SDMB thread have no problem with the concept of one-man vigilanteism - provided the crime is an ignorant speech / expression issue?

We're all still opposed to frontier justice in capital cases and sex crimes though, right?
That's what I'm getting after a read of this thread. What's next? Do you smack somebody upside the head because they are wearing a shirt whose message is pro-life or pro-choice? How about those which promote GLBT rights, or someone with a fundie shirt? Heck, I've got a shirt with a picture of the electric chair on it, and above the chair is the word 'Justice' and below the chair is the phrase 'Regular or Extra Crispy?' If you're against capital punishment, does that mean you can assault me?

Last time I checked, I wan't compelled to agree with your logic or your expressions of same, but I was compelled to respect your right to have and hold that logic as well as espouse it. Unless I preserve those rights for you, my own Constitution protection is equally endangered.
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  #40  
Old 09-16-2005, 04:47 PM
Frank Frank is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhendo
This Year's Model proclaimed that the "fighting words" exception to freedom of speech applies in this case. I'm wondering if TYM or anyone else actually has any evidence to support this assertion, or if it's just wishful thinking.
You may wish to go back and see if you can find a question mark in my post. I'd also like to hear from the lawyers about it. I've heard it referred to, and I have no idea if it's real or not.
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Old 09-16-2005, 05:03 PM
Mtgman Mtgman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBckWLD
So, a sizeable plurality of posters this SDMB thread have no problem with the concept of one-man vigilanteism - provided the crime is an ignorant speech / expression issue?

We're all still opposed to frontier justice in capital cases and sex crimes though, right?
In the Court of Mtgman, hearing the cases of Redneck Asshole and Offended Vigilante.

In the case of the Redneck Asshole I find the defendent guilty and would like to sternly warn the offender about his unrepentant attitude. This type of offense is not acceptable in society. Further offenses will be treated most seriously, even moreso if the accompanying attitude is not reformed.

In the case of the Offended Vigilantee I find the defendant guilty and would remind the offender that society set up the rule of law so proportionate and fair justice could be meeted out. If the offense rises to the level of being actionable in court the proper remedy is to seek justice through the justice system.

Enjoy,
Steven
  #42  
Old 09-16-2005, 05:13 PM
mhendo mhendo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by This Year's Model
You may wish to go back and see if you can find a question mark in my post. I'd also like to hear from the lawyers about it. I've heard it referred to, and I have no idea if it's real or not.
The fighting words doctrine is very real. The question, though, is whether or not it would apply in this particular case.

Here are a couple of pages that offer an introduction to the issue:

FreedomForum
University of Missouri, Kansas City Law School
  #43  
Old 09-16-2005, 05:19 PM
mhendo mhendo is offline
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Hit submit too early.

Here's a relevant quote from the first link:
Quote:
The fighting-words doctrine was again reaffirmed in Street v. New York, 394 U.S. 576 (1969). After publicly burning an American flag and making defiant comments regarding the flag, Street was convicted of violating a New York statute making it a misdemeanor to "publicly mutilate, deface, defile, defy, trample upon, or cast contempt upon an American flag either by words or act." The Supreme Court reversed Street's conviction because his comments, considered a possible factor in his conviction, were constitutionally protected by the First Amendment. Emphasizing that the mere offensiveness of words does not strip them of constitutional protection, the Court again noted that fighting words must present an actual threat of immediate violence, not merely offensive content.
Bolding mine.

And in a 1971 case:
Quote:
The Court reasoned that because Cohen's statement was not an insult directed toward a particular individual, it could not be regulated as fighting words.
And, in a case that is perhaps more closely applicable to the one being discussed here:
Quote:
In R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul, 505 U.S. 377 (1992), the Court considered the constitutionality of a St. Paul, Minn., ordinance that prohibited fighting words on the "basis of race, color, creed, religion or gender." The defendant was one of several teen-agers to be charged with violating the ordinance after burning a cross on an African-American family's lawn. The Supreme Court determined that the ordinance was facially unconstitutional because it prohibited speech on the basis of its content. The majority reasoned that even if the ordinance reached only unprotected fighting words, the city still could not constitutionally regulate only certain types of fighting words on the basis of their content. By prohibiting not all fighting words but only those of a particularly offensive nature, the statute ran afoul of the Constitution.
Make of that what you will but, if that website's representations of those cases is accurate, it appears to me that the assailant in this case would have trouble defending his conduct by claiming that the white kid's shirt constituted "fighting words."
  #44  
Old 09-16-2005, 05:22 PM
Frank Frank is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhendo
The fighting words doctrine is very real. The question, though, is whether or not it would apply in this particular case.
What I gather from those cites is that it is a question whether fighting words would apply in any case. The courts seem to be all over the place on it.

The one common factor, however, seems to be that all the cases revolve around the person issuing the fighting words having been arrested for a breach of the peace. I don't see anything about how it would apply as a criminal defense to someone responding to the fighting words.
  #45  
Old 09-16-2005, 05:24 PM
Frank Frank is offline
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Originally Posted by mhendo
Make of that what you will but, if that website's representations of those cases is accurate, it appears to me that the assailant in this case would have trouble defending his conduct by claiming that the white kid's shirt constituted "fighting words."
I tend to agree with that after reading your cites. As you'll have noted above, I've still got curiousity, though.
  #46  
Old 09-16-2005, 05:26 PM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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Originally Posted by JohnBckWLD
So, a sizeable plurality of posters this SDMB thread have no problem with the concept of one-man vigilanteism - provided the crime is an ignorant speech / expression issue?

We're all still opposed to frontier justice in capital cases and sex crimes though, right?
We all know it's wrong to "go upside someone's head", but at the same time there is something about an offensive ignorant asshole being "educated" in such a simple and direct way. It's like eating a whole box of chocolate. It's a supposed to be a bad thing, but it feels good somehow.
  #47  
Old 09-16-2005, 05:29 PM
mhendo mhendo is offline
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Originally Posted by SteveG1
We all know it's wrong to "go upside someone's head", but at the same time there is something about an offensive ignorant asshole being "educated" in such a simple and direct way.
I even feel this way about the death penalty. I oppose it on principle, for a variety of reasons, but that didn't prevent me from feeling a certain amount of satisfaction when Timothy McVeigh was executed.

But, conversely, that sense of satisfaction did not change my opinion about the death penalty, nor my implacable opposition to it.
  #48  
Old 09-16-2005, 05:34 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
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Originally Posted by danceswithcats
That's what I'm getting after a read of this thread. What's next?
Nothing's next, none of your silly examples to the side.

But if you want a "what's next," how about this one: your mom dies of cancer, and I point and laugh at you and say, "Ha ha, your mom died!" and you pop me one. That's what's next.

When a person uses free speech to express personal satisfaction at a horrific death (or, in this case, a tradition of horrific deaths), it's hard for me to get worked up over their getting popped in the nose, especially by someone who was affected by those deaths.

That's very different from a person using free speech to express a political view and getting attacked for it.

Daniel
  #49  
Old 09-16-2005, 05:54 PM
OtakuLoki OtakuLoki is offline
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Originally Posted by mhendo
I disagree completely.

I oppose punishing people in the courts for their thoughts and the words, and i'm equally opposed to people taking things into their own hands like this. While i must admit to sharing some of the OP's visceral sense of satisfaction, i think the guy did the wrong thing, and he deserves whatever punishment is normally meted out for assault. And, as others have observed, beating up racists is unlikely to do anything to stem or counter racism.
IANAL.

However, in my understanding of how the courts work, a simple assault like this, with no aggrivating circumstances on the part of the perpetrator (I see no indication that this fight was between two mis-matched persons in age, physical fitness or even gender.), no serious harm having been done, and extenuating circumstances existing for the assault (Whether you're satisfied or not by this kid's actions, there is nothing incomprehensible about them.) the most common punishment handed out for a first offender will involve fines, community service, and possible treatment for anger management.

The fines are usually up to the discretion of the judge (And seperate from court fees.) and are scaled by several factors, including (but not limited to) how incomprehensible the action of the defendant had been, the age of the defendant, and the defendant's past record. It is not unusual from the times I've spent sitting in general court, to see a judge waive all fines if he's satisfied the defendant isn't a continuing hazard, or that the circumstances were understandable. Anger management treatment is something that is rarely suggested until at least a second offense.

I want to make it clear my satisfaction is not such that I want to give the kid any sort of "Get Out of Jail Free" card. I just think that given my understanding of the usual sentencing for this crime is such that a little directed community service seems especially appropriate. Community service is AIUI the standard punishment for this kind of assault. All that I and several other posters have said is that the judge suggest where the community service be done, if that's possible. I really don't see anyone saying that the kid who assaulted the other should be given a bye, and told "Go and be a righteous fist for God and Country."
  #50  
Old 09-16-2005, 05:57 PM
Sampiro Sampiro is offline
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This reminds me of the incident at Auburn University a few years back when some frat boys came up with some really clever and "hysterical" costumes (scroll through- the worst ones aren't on the front page) and several honestly didn't understand why people (including, I must add, MANY white southerners) because "we're not really racist--- we're making fun of racists!" (Sometimes I think that if it weren't for the contributions of their hazing rituals in gay porn frat boys would serve no purpose at all.)

At the time I didn't want to see expulsions from the University or their fraternity closed or any of that stuff (all of which happened) half as much as I wanted to see some fraternity brothers drive the 20 miles from Tuskegee and crash the party. With bats. I'd have definitely contributed to their bail.
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