The US should annex Mexico now!

Mexican nationals in our country, illegally. There is virtually no one who does not see this as a problem: Even if their being here is of benefit to the economy, it most certainly is a bad thing for the rule of law and is terribly unfair to those foreigners who play by the rules and jump through the FedGov’s numerous hoops to get her legally (my Japanese wife, for example).

My position is that these people are here for a reason: They add something to the economy that’s necessary, and instead of sucking that up, the US is in bestowing on them a de facto sub-guest-worker status, using their illegal status as leverage to exploit them even further.

A successful polity, like a successful psyche, depends on the explicitness of its aims. If we want to have a policy of exploiting guest works a la Saudi Arabia, then we should make a law to that effect, as Bush is proposing (horrible and unjust idea, btw). If we don’t want illegal workers in this country, then we should toss them out.

But we do want the Mexicans here, so the US policy is schizoid, bad for us, and bad for the Mexicans who come here.

But the other villain is Mexico, and it is more to blame than the US. Blessed with natural resources, oil, and people who want to work (as evidenced by their coming here), it is a country that simply hasn’t managed to get its act together socially or politically.

The world’s 9th largest economy and 66th in per capita income (about $10k, not really too bad), it is still known for its poverty because of the stunning gap between rich and poor. According to this chart, it is the 15th most economically unequal country in the world. With its resources and significant industrial infrastructure, Mexico has really no one to blame for itself for its current state.

It has, however, a special kind of safety valve for its problems: the territory of its northern neighbor. Mexico, in effect, exports its poverty to our country. Its citizens contribute cheap labor and then export capital back home. If it were not for the complicity of the US itself, it were no exaggeration to call this economic warfare.

My solution is simple and counter-intuitive: erase the border. Nix it. Make it disappear. Give Mexicans not guest worker status, but full citizenship in the US.

It’s worked in the past. Where would Texas, California, Arizona, and New Mexico be if they were still part of Mexico?

How to do it without making the US the “bad guy”? I don’t have a good answer, so let’s come back to that. I feel I can answer with confidence, however, any objection as to whether a peaceful and nonviolent annexation would be a good thing in the long run:

All those impoverished Mexicans coming here would bankrupt the US!
As stated above, Mexico is the world’s 9th largest economy and has much in the way of natural resources, including oil. It also has a large tourism industry. But the country’s assets are currently mismanaged. Better management of those assets could raise standards of living in Mexico in the short term and–if we have any confidence in our economic model–raise them to US standards in the long term.

But that’s only half the story. Once the border is gone, all of Mexico would be open for unrestricted development by US firms. “They” wouldn’t just come here, “we” would also go there.

Making 106M Mexicans citizens would destroy Anglo-American culture!
Again, the population would flow both ways: English speakers would also go into Mexico and spread English there.

I too think English is something worth preserving on the North American continent, but I’m more worried about what will happen if we don’t merge with Mexico. Texas and California became predominantly English speaking because we injected “our” culture there in the 19th century. Since then, populations on both sides of the border have grown, the one becoming English-speaking and the other Spanish-speaking. If a merger is effected now instead of later, there is a good chance that the culture of the larger population will predominate in the long run. If it is not effected now, the population of Mexico could continue to grow while that of the US shrinks (due to demographic trends), there could be continued “poverty leakage” from Mexico into the US, and eventually Mexico could overwhelm the US.

Think it can’t happen? Look at the cultural suicide taking place in Europe by means of importing large numbers of Muslims and failing to integrate them while dropping one’s own birth rates.

(Before some numbskull accuses me of racism, let me point that I am talking about integrating the two countries. What I want to avoid is a failed polity like Mexico eventually overwhelming the US through sheer demographic force and the exporting of its population through illegal immigration. What I want to protect is English-speaking culture and our political values; it does not follow, however, that I want to eliminate Spanish-speaking culture. Thanks in advance for responding accurately to my position.)

The annexation would cause complete political chaos in the US–a Mexican might become president!
All of Mexico would start off as a territory with its citizens lacking voting rights in national elections. States would be formed out of these territories, and constitutional conventions convened. This would take several years, and US-style rule of law would be swiftly but effectively inculcated. In the meanwhile, you would have population shifts in both directions.

I am sanguine about how it would work out. I think you’d have a newly empowered and energized population in the former Mexico combined with pride in the north over our new 15 or so states. Indeed, a Mexican might become president after awhile, but I don’t see that as a bad thing if that person embodies our political values.

Back to the part about how such an annexation could occur without the US being the bad guy. It’s probably politically impossible. Even though the Mexican government represents its own ruling class and not the overal population, of course it’s going to piss and moan and call the US imperialist or whatever. But an annexation would be the best thing that ever happened to Mexican citizens.

Then it would be on to Canada. Please comment, thanks!

Forget about the issues of the morality of such an action…

Out of the 106M Mexicans, how many will pick up arms and resist this annexation? Let’s say it’s only 5%. That’s 5,000,000 “insurgents”. No thanks.

Is this attitude of “we know what’s best for you” pecular to gringos or do other nationalities share this trait?

Correct. If there were a military cost on that scale, it would not be worth it.

I highly doubt that a 5M-man army would be formed, however. That is a very high percent of the adult male population, so I think your reasoning is off.

No, it’s like generalizing about a whole population from the actions of one or a few: anybody can play the game. As you’re demonstrating.

As far as the idea of annexing Mexico goes, I personally think anyone suggesting it should be beaten over the head with a bronze statue of James K. Polk. If another country wants to become part of the United States, as Texas and Hawaii did, that’s perfectly OK by me. And Aeschines’s discussion of the problems and benefits would apply if that country were Mexico. But I think the arrogant “let’s take them over for their own good, and spread Anglo civilization by force” attitude went out with Rudyard Kipling, or at least should have.

I can only think back a few short years to when the majority of Americans support W’s attempt to “liberate” Iraq.

Yet the results for the US and those former Mexicans who became US citizens (and their decendants) were spectacular, were they not?

If we get beyond the “it’s naughty to take over other countries” meme, then what’s the problem? (BTW, I am not advocating a violent takeover, though some realpolitik might be involved.)

I was against the war in Iraq because it wasn’t in our national interest, not because Sadaam’s regime deserved any respect. It’s been a disaster for the US. But as for saying the Mexican-American War was wrong because we took poor ole Mexico’s land, all I can say is, “Waaaah!”

What I want to spread is the rule of law and economic equality. There’s no real reason why North America shouldn’t be under one government.

Again, who died and annointed you king?

What’s your estimate, and why would it be worth it?

I never said it would be an organized army, nor that it would consist only of adult males. I doubt that an insurgency would be limitted to that subcategory of the population. We’ve seen that to be true in many such conflicts in the past, and it’s true in Iraq today.

We don’t have kings in the US–we have dictators.

Generally speaking, I am in favor of admitting Mexico to the Union. I think it would be good for both them and us in the long run. I am also in favor of admitting Canada.

That said, I don’t think they want to join.

Well, then, your whole argument is pretty much a non-starter. I mean, if you want to shell out the pesos and run full page ads in Mexican newspapers, knock yourself out. But I would bet there is about zero interest among Mexicans in joining the U.S. as a bunch of gringo states (let alone being annexed as a territory without even having voting rights).

I should start a thread “Salma Hayek should be my love slave”. Of course, I certainly wouldn’t advocate the use of violence or coercion towards this end, or even do anything which could be construed as stalking Ms. Hayek. She should just look me up in the phone book and give me a call.

Suppose I broke into your house and killed several family members, then left with much of your property. Do you think “Waaaah!” should count as a viable defense in court ?

It would be interesting to know what public opinion is. “Zero interest”? Isn’t that prima facie absurd considering the millions seeking to come to the US and staying here for the long term?

If a significant portion of the population wants to pack up and move here, then let’s give them their wish: Make “there” part of “here.”

Hah, funny.

But the coercian part comes in here: Obviously, the Mexican government is doing a shitty job of it, and it represents the interests of the rich and not of the poor (de facto, considering the inequality there). And it was only recently that an opposition party could win there. So the idea is that that government is barely legitimate in the first place.

“Waaaah” is the short version for bleeding-heart types who simply assume that the US could not have been in the right in that war because we ended up with more land than when we started.

Actually, I’ve studied the issue and think that, while imperfect (as nations always are), the US was justified in how it acted. It even paid Mexico for the land (which was mostly unpopulated and not under genuine control by Mexico in the first place).

No, its a non-zero number. However, its not a very large percentage of Mexicans who want Mexico to join the US. I don’t even think a large percentage of Mexicans coming to the US want Mexico to join the US. They just want better lives for themselves and their immediate families. Think it through this way…lots of OTHER people want to come to the US too. Not many of them want their mother nations to become part of the US either.

What if its only a small percentage? What if its less than 50%?
Besides, even if a large percentage of Mexicans could agree on a desire to be annexed by the US (its too laugh that a large percentage of my former countrymen could agree on ANYTHING, let alone this :stuck_out_tongue: ), how are you going to convince the folks here in the US its a good idea? What makes you think it would be a slam dunk that the US WOULD annex Mexico…even if they begged us too (which isn’t likely to happen btw…sorry to burst your bubble).

-XT

Seconded.

Though when I think about it, Algeria is poorly managed, but has oil, and is sending immigrants our way… Maybe we could annex it, change it into a territory where people don’t have the right to vote at first, spread our language and culture there and…

Oh shit! We already tried that! :smack: Forget about it…
It seems we’ll have to accept our cultural suicide…

Yes, this makes perfect sense. They’d like to come and grab some dough while retaining a large and fatty chunk of sentiment for the “Old Country.” A lot of people, I’m sure, would like the benefits of US citizenship without any of the duties thereof. You point out something very true about human nature.

Right, the human mind is capable of nuturing conflicting elements simultaneously. A lot of nationalities in effect reject their own environments to come here yet remain extremely chauvinistic.

Right. The other aspect of the debate, which people unfortunately are dodging here, is that Mexico is fucking the US bigtime and getting away with it. As a matter of policy or not, de facto, it is. Illegals here are getting free education and medical care which they can take back to their country. They are sending money back to Mexico.

One way or another, this problem needs to be solved. I am saying, at the end of the day, if Mexicans want the benefits of walking around on US territory and working here, regardless of whether they like the idea of Mexico becoming part of the US; and if the Mexican polity is to some significant degree propped by exporting its population to the US and importing US capital, then Mexico ought to be annexed.

It wouldn’t be a slam dunk. It would be an argument that, in the long run, that it would be the best thing for the population of the continent.

Ah, but you didn’t. And you still aren’t. France is probably the world’s best example of what not to do. It’s also a perfect lesson in what half-assed measures accomplish. First of all, Algeria was an arbitrary choice for colonization. Second, Algerians weren’t coming to France in significant numbers until you fucked with them. Third, they were never treated as equals or welcomed as true citizens, and you continue to treat the North Africans that come your way as scum (can you still smell those burning cars?).

So now you’ve got the worst of both worlds: No Algeria, no oil, but plenty of pissed off people in your country with no desire to integrate with the whole, and no hope of doing so should they want it. Good job, France!

You laugh it off, but your country is taking a quick trip down the cultural drain. There won’t be a France in 100 years.

BTW, I am not saying that Mexicans should not have the right to vote for any extended period of time. They would be free to move to any state in the union right away, and as soon as the various parts of the country established constitutions and were admitted as states, the people living there would be able to vote.

This has been the standard procedure in the US since the country was founded.