IN this thread raindog and I had a disagreement about reincarnation in the Bible.
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raindog **claims
My contention is not that reincarnation is obviously supported by the Bible, but that since the Bible is subject to interpretation there are enough references to reincarnation to keep the question open to an individual judgement call.
Several years ago I began studying this by posing the question “Is reincarnation incompatible with the Bible and what Jesus taught?” That question being apart from but considering,traditional Christian doctrine.
I discovered that some early Christians did believe and teach reincarnation and it was eventually outlawed as official church doctrine. This being the same official church that persecuted and murdered dissenters and destroyed the writings of those who considered other beliefs, I didn’t consider what they declared official to hold much spiritual authority.
In the Bible itself there are some references. We’ll start with two obvious ones.
Here the interpretation can be that Jesus recognizes John The Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah.
the other is,
This seems to indicate that people of that era believed Jesus might be the reincarnation of one of the prophets.** raindog ** correctly points out that this does not indicate that Jesus taught reincarnation, only that *others * believed in it. Fair enough, but it is in combination with other passages that it supports reincarnation. We might note that there’s nothing in the conversation about Jesus speaking against reincarnation as a valid belief.
Other passages will come up as the thread continues. { I hope }
What say you Dopers? Does the Bible suggest the possibility of reincarnation or does it clearly dismiss it?
Orthodox Jews believe that after the Messiah comes, the dead will return to earthly life. Is that included in what you mean by re-incarnation, or do you specifically mean it in the sense of “an old soul inhabiting a new body”?
For the revival of the dead, there are oblique scriptural references, for the other kind of reincarnation, while Judaism does traditionally believe it occasionally happens, I know of no specific support for it in the Bible…however, neither does the Bible say it can’t happen. It’s just one of those things that exist but the Bible sees no need to mention, like the existence of duck-billed platypuses.
Elijah, in any case, wouldn’t be a re-incarnation. He was borne to heaven in the firey chariot while still alive, and his body never ceased functioning. Tradition says he still walks amongst us doing G-d’s work in hidden ways, and there are many great Rabbis who have claimed he has appeared to them. When he will herals the Messianic era, he will make himself apparent to everyone, obviously.
I’m speaking about our spirits going through a process of spiritual growth by living a series of physical lives in different bodies.
Obviously I don’t agree that the Bible doesn’t mention it. The fact that Elijah was borne to heaven and may not have experienced physical death doesn’t rule out him being reincarnated as John the Baptist. The manner in which he gave up his Elijah physical form is irrelevant.
As I read cmkeller’s post, Elijah never gave up his physical form. He was assumed bodily into heaven and he’s continuing on with that body to this day.
That aside, the usual support for a belief in reincarnation is John 9:1-2.
The argument is that it wouldn’t have made sense for a man to be born blind because he sinned if there was no opportunity for him to have sinned before he was born.
The standard text that’s wheeled out against reincarnation is Hebrews 9:27 - “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”
It’s not Dominical, and most liberal Christians are more than happy to dismiss a literal interpretation of very large chunks of the Epsitles, but there it is.
It doesn’t really resolve the issue either way, but there’s Matthew 22:30-32 :-
“For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
The first part of this would seem to imply, as a minimum, that whatever form “resurrection” takes, it’s not re-birth into normal human society. The second part, however, could certainly be used by the pro-reincarnation camp, and is offered up accordingly.
I think this is more of an indirect reference to the Second Commandment, Exodus 20:5 - “… visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.” One of the many aspects of the God of the Old Testament that’s rather downplayed these days.
Yes, but there is a difference beween resurrection and reincarnation.
You’ll probably hear several versions of what the details of reincarnation means. There are various forms. For myself, I believe that there is a process of spiritual growth that goes through several lives depending on our choices. When we reach a certain point ,one with God, or the Universe or spiritual perfection, whichever term one prefers, then there is no need to be physically reborn to this earth. When you graduate from high school you don’t need to go back to 6th grade to learn anything. You move forward. Jesus had reached that point so his resurrection, was not the same as the learning process of reincarnation. Personally I believe these things are all pointed to in the Bible.
Not that I necessarily buy into any interpretation, but if that’s all it was, wouldn’t the disciples have asked “Did this man’s parents sin that he was born blind?”?
Yes, he said thats a traditional belief not a scriptural one. Being spiritual beings I don’t think we retain our physical bodies in the spiritual realm.
Thanks, that’s one on the list. It does indicate at least a belief in reincarnation and something like Karma. Although Jesus says this is not the case he again does not spefically denounce reincarnation.
The passage as a whole addresses, even if it doesn’t completely answer, the perennial question - “Why do the innocent suffer?” If we start from the premise that all suffering is punishment for sin, then the blind man’s suffering is either due to his own sin (before birth - possibly in a previous life, but not necessarily) or the sins of his parents being “visited upon” him. Jesus’ answer (“Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents”) is a denial of the premise, rather than a choice between the two alternatives. I agree that it doesn’t constitute an unambiguous denial of reincarnation, and that the idea of reincarnation was certainly part of the “discourse” of the disciples.
Read this a lot when I was studying the subject. Of course we have to then consider Lazerus and the child Jesus raised from the dead and ask how literal this is. Are we talking final judgement or the judgement that decides if you come back or move on? The best article specifically on this was by JJ Dewey. He examined the original Greek
in 9:26 the word translated into end of the world is AION which more correctly means eon or age.
Man in verse 27 is ANTHROPOS which indicates mankind as a whole.
Judgement is the greek word KRISIS which is used in the Bible as accusation, condemnation, damnation, and judgment. In this case by comparing it to other scriptures in which it is used, he indicates it might be interpreted as a decision that brings correction. Seen in this way this passage can be seen as supporting reincarnation rather than denouncing it. It might be
Hebrews 9:27: “And as it is appointed unto men once to die (in this present age), on the other hand after this comes the resurrection of correction” (where we will be born and die again in a future age).
Except the resurrection refered to in the first part is not be the only resurrection refered to in the Bible. It refers to the our coming to our full spitritual growth when it is no longer nessecary to reborn in physical form here on earth.
“The hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (KRISIS).” John 5:28-29
two resurrections, one the resurection of correction. {krisis}
That’s what I don’t understand about reincarnation. If it’s the case, we always start over from the beginning. No one is born remembering any of the past life so where is the growth?
Reincarnationists would say that the spirit subconsciously retains the memories/karma & experiences the growth.
As a Christian, I’ve been anti-Rein, then pro-Rein, now I just consider it an open question- reincarnation may occur if God has some purpose for it, but He has chosen not to emphasize it in the teachings of the Hebrew prophets, the Lord JC or His apostles, so beyond some interesting speculation, I don’t dwell on it.
BUT here are speculations I’ve heard-
Jesus>Melchizedek and/or Adam (Edgar Cayce names about twelve), oh yeah- and Ernest L. Norman, who founded Unarius with his wife Ruth
Eve>Virgin Mary, maybe also Miriam, sister of Aaron & Moses
and I could make a good argument for King Saul>Saul of Tarsus
It’s more the situation you’re born into, and certain personality traits, and other things that are determined by progress made or not made in a previous life. Are you born into a loving nurturing enviorment or in a major dysfunctional enviorment? All the specifics we have to deal with in this life and make choices about are determined in large part by a previous life. The choices we make in this life, to love or not, to conquer our fears, to be honest or dishonest, determine where we go next. There’s no need to remember to learn by choosing.
IMHO Karma isn’t about reward and punishment. It’s about what you give out and what comes back to you. That is the law we cannot escape. If we give out love eventually love comes back to us. If we seek and cling to and live according to the truth, then we will discover more truth.
As I said before, ir isn’t instant or even always in one lifetime. We see good people suffer and we see b ad people who appear to do well, but at some point the wheel turns and what goes around comes around. We are tempted to sacrifice love and truth for the sake of our more immediate needs. We can choose that, but those choices have consequences.
Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Pretty hard to make a case for reincarnation from the above, more so, when taken in context.
Not so hard actually. You’ll find I’ve already dealt with Hebrews 9:27
The other two make no clear case against reincarnation. Return to dust after how many lives, or how many times? Both passages only state that we are spiritual beings rather than merely physical. That doesn’t clash with reincarnation. Reincarnation is merely the path by which we return to “God who gave it”
Remember, my arguement is not that reincarnation is not clearly promoted by the Bible. It’s that there are enough passages that suggest it to make it a reasonable choice when interpreting the scriptures. I think that is fairly evident. PArt of my reason for believeing that is the fact that reincarnation was believed and taught by early Christians which I only discovered a few years ago. Origen pne of the great thelogians of the early church taught reincarnation. It wasn’t until around 533 A.D.
that the Roman church declared reincarnation to be heresy. How much theological credibility do they have when they persecuted and killed people for thinking differently?
Here’s some other passages.
could we be the angels of God?
Does this mean we leave it…once…or more than once?
the wheel of nature is a common symbol indicating reincarnation among many civilizations.
along with
speaking of the cycle of repeating our physical birth vs. the spiritual growth nessecary to avoid it.
This has proved very interesting - there are a couple of questions I’d like to ask cosmodan, or anyone else who shares this view, if I may.
Is your main issue whether or not the doctrine of reincarnation is compatible with Christianity, or just with the Christian Bible?
If “Christianity” is your answer to the first question, how do you regard the various doctrines of the Atonement? What, if anything, did Jesus accomplish by His death on the cross?
All this shows is that the Bible contradicts itself. Matthew implies a belief in reincarnation (it pretty much claims flat out that John the Baptist was a reincarnation of Elijah) and I would also argue that revelation alludes to a populist belief that the Roman Emperor Domitian was the reincarnation of Nero.
The fact that other parts of the Bible show contradictory beliefs does not erase the bits that do show such a belief. The Bible is lots of different books written by lots of different people at lots of different times. It does not express anything like a unified, consistent view of practically anything.
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