Hi all, I’m new to this board and thought I’d put this one out. What does everyone think?
I disagree with you, whatever it is you think.
(in other words: what aspect of this subject do you wish to debate?)
Why don’t you tell us what you think, first, and then we’ll have the makings of a debate.
Great Minds Think Alike Simulpost! 
morning, Mangetout
OK, I’m an ex-Christian and would generally describe myself as a Universalist, but I’m leaning towards the idea that karma and reincarnation are God’s vehicles for salvation. The metaphysical law of karma requires no belief system. It works equally well on the Christian as the atheist.
Good afternoon
Sounds interesting; do you believe that reincarnation is something that God set in place, or something fundamental to existence? (sorry, I can’t find a better way to ask that) Do you believe that God is distinct from creation?
Two more questions.
Salvation from what?
Salvition into(?) what?
I don’t see how “karma” can be taken to apply to Christianity.
From Merriam-Webster online:
In Christianity, what determines the nature of a person’s next existence (Heaven or Hell, burn or bliss) is based solely on whether he accepts that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, with all the theological baggage that goes along with that. It’s got nothing to do with how many “right actions” or “right thoughts” he performs in this life.
Ephesians 2:8-9 says, courtesy of the Bible Gateway:
Nothing you can “do” can get you into Heaven.
Also, the concept of transmigration of souls includes the belief that you go around many times, whereas Christianity says that you only get one ticket.
Hebrews 9:27 says:
So if you’re only going around once, you don’t need to amass good karma, so the concept isn’t applicable to Christianity.
Something that God put in place. In the beginning there was God, out there beyond space-time. God got bored(yes a human attribute, but I’ve got no better way of describing it), and decided to play a game of pick up sticks. He created space-time as a game board, so to speak. He splintered Himself into gazillions of souls, and is now putting himself back together. Space-time got his splinters dirty, and the physical experience of life is what cleans us. Through karma and reincarnation, souls experience cause and effect, and inch towards perfection. At some point we as souls will have cleansed ourselves to where we no longer need to be physical–salvation.
Feel free to poke holes, tell me I’m nuts, applaud, whatever, I’m doing this from work, and I have to get back towards it. I’ll be back later on this morning.
Please define what you mean by “karma”. Karma is central to both Hinduism and Buddhism, but both mean somewhat different things by that term.
I’m curious also about what you mean (in more detail) by reincarnation. I suppose, of course, you mean that after death we come back to life in another form. However, what comes back to life, where, when and in what form? How do you reach those conclusions?
I tend to tell people that I’m buddhist, so that might shed light on my views.
There are a few words for karma in Japanese, and one of them is in’nen. This comes from the Chinese yinyuan, and is written with characters that mean ‘cause’ and ‘relation’, and, that’s exactly how I understand karma. All things are related, and thus, there is no change without consequence, and all changes are themselves the result of previous changes. In other words, karma is simply the law of causation by a different name. Buddhism, in my own limited understanding, holds a very deterministic view of the Universe. The moral implication of this is that at all times, we should be aware of the consequences of our actions. The metaphysical implications are that there is no true creation or justice, only change and consequence. (Lately, the question of free will has been bothering me a lot, and the most I can say about whether it exists or not is: “I don’t know.”)
“I don’t know” is also the only thing I can say about reicarnation. I don’t know what I am, and so it’s very difficult for me to argue about what happens to something I don’t understand. In any event, I find that what happens before I die is much more important, to me, now, than what happens after.
Welcome to the boards, who me?
An interesting and quite plausible set of beliefs, but as DDG says, difficult to reconcile with Christianity in any meaningful way.
Although having said that, it’s not terribly dissimilar to some things I’ve seen Libertarian say (the bits about individuals being splinters of something larger, that is).
You’re nuts.
But I applaud your fantasy.
Oh wait, I’m barred from making derogatory remarks about other people’s religions. Drat.
Uhm, that’s an interresting view.
Oops, I missed your replies…
I’m still curious, though, about how you reached your conlusions. I don’t mean to sound harsh, but it kind of sounds like something you made up.
Here are my problems:
"God got bored"
In other words, God changed. What made him change? Either: a) He made himself get bored. That doesn’t solve the problem, though. What made him make himself get bored? b) Something else bored him. That implies that God is not infinite and all-powerfull, that there is a greater whole and that something has influence over God, in other words, God is not God.
"Space time got his splinters dirty"
If God is dirty, then that means that he is less than perfect. Or it means that something external to God attached itself to him. Which makes God a finite supernatural being, again, under the influence of a greater force.
The problem I have with the whole is that it sounds like you’re trying to make a picture with pieces from different puzzles.
Cheers
Ahem I think the Catholic church has a few pointed remarks to make about your conception of Christianity, bub. Hoestly, do i still have to keep pointing this out? I don’t even have enough tie left over to stand valiantly beside all of the other misunderstood groups.
“Please define what you mean by “karma”. Karma is central to both Hinduism and Buddhism, but both mean somewhat different things by that term.”
Karma as I see it:
Any action(or thought, but I’ll leave that for now) has an effect on yourself, others, and/or our environment. Karma is the natural law that arranges cicumstances in your future so that your actions come back to you in some form. It happens over the lifetime of the soul, not the personality. So what karma you did not meet in this lifetime gets carried over to the next.
“I’m still curious, though, about how you reached your conlusions. I don’t mean to sound harsh, but it kind of sounds like something you made up.”
Not harsh at all, I lack the ability to clearly state my thoughts on this subject, so my explination was itself lacking. In a way I did “make it up”. The nature of God and the universe is beyond our understanding, so any attempt to understand it is an approximation, and the pure truth is probably so far from our understanding that it makes individual differences in our beliefs infantesimal (sp?) My ideas come from a hodgepodge of sources, even including the Bible. “I am the alpha and the omega.”, says God.
Karma and reincarnation do fly in the face of today’s Christianity. I believe though (no offense to Christians) that it’s Christianity that is errant. The central Belief that accepting Jesus as saviour is the only way to achieve salvation seeems illogical. I can’t believe that a just God would discriminate on the basis of creed. Karma and reincarnation do pop up in the Bible if you’re willing to stretch a little. “As you sew, so shall you reap” sounds like a pretty good definition of karma to me. I would be interested in the mainstream Christian exposition of that phrase. I can’t quote chapter and verse but there is a passage in Matthew I think that has Jesus say “But I say to you that Elias has already come, and the deciples knew that he spoke of John the Baptist.” John the Baptist is the reincarnation of Elias?
I point out that the most obvious interpretation of that passage, assuming it exists, is that the Prophet Elijah (or whomever you speak of) mentioned John the Baptist would prepare the way for the Lord.
Now in any event, you take two odd ideas.
I am Catholiuc. I do not believe in Karma as you do. Yet, in keeping with my faith, I do believe what you do comes back to you. Of course, I don’t believe in reincarnation.
Nor would I accept it. Natural Law can kiss my arse, I’m not coming back. The world sucks. Buddha can go reincarnate his OWN chilly cheese buttocks.
Actually, that’s kind of the first pillar of buddhism… The third one of course being that it doesn’t necessarily have to be that way.