Found it; it was from Matthew.
17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
I’m sure you know some people who seem to get shat upon by life at every turn, but they are the kindest folk, who couldn’t have done anything to deserve their plight. And in the same vein, some people who treat others with disrespect and never receive their comeuppance. People who don’t seem to be reaping what they sew. So how does what they do come back? By going to either heaven/hell? Christianity teaches that man is not saved by works, but by grace.
No, it does require two assumptions: that whatever the nature of individual personality may be, it is something that is not exclusively a result of the organic matter housing it, which can and does die, and that, again whatever it may be, it does survive the death of the body housing it in some fashion that can be again housed within a body.
This is not an out-and-out objection to it, just clarifying the ground rules. It’s quite possible to object to it on the basis of one’s view that the mind/soul/spirit/atman/whatever is merely a construct of the brain and dependent on the brain’s survival for existence, as well as on whatever a God (the JCI version or not) may or may not have had in mind.
And my first question when I read DDG’s post was raised by who me – what about the JtB/Elijah thing?
But to me the key question for a Christian is not whether reincarnation may or may not exist – it may be a piece of God’s arsenal of techniques for trying to get through to the blockheads He created, for all I know – but rather:
In Buddhism and other faiths that accept karma and reincarnation, the object is to “get off the merry-go-round” – to achieve a spiritual transcendence that allows you to leave the fun and games of “you have to repeat the exercise until you get it right” for something beyond.
In Christianity, we call that grace, and it’s God’s free gift.
To nitpick: that sort of thing (as with all theology) depends on the formulation. Nagarjuna, one of the better known Buddhist philosophers, is attriubted, “Nirvana is samsara itself. Nirvana is samsara itself.” And the idea of nirvana/enlightenment/awakening as an escape is much less pronounced in Mahayana formulations, which has a rich mythos of Buddhas and bodhisattvas not just choosing to stay on the merry-go-round, but staying there as literally part of the whole point in achieving that transcendence–that the transcendence itself turns into immanence. The <i>Bodhicharyatavara</i> contains the wonderful statement of a bodhisattva’s purpose:
“For as long as space endures; as long as there are beings to be found; then may I, too, remain; to ease the sufferings of the world.”
…which I personally find rather more inspiring than a more “so long, suckers!” formulation of what nirvana is about. Varying mileages and blind men and elephants, of course.
“No, it does require two assumptions: that whatever the nature of individual personality may be, it is something that is not exclusively a result of the organic matter housing it, which can and does die, and that, again whatever it may be, it does survive the death of the body housing it in some fashion that can be again housed within a body.”
I could’ve stated that more clearly. What I meant was, assuming karma to occur, it occurs no matter what you believe about the nature of God. A Christian meets his karma the same way an athiest does. A better way to put it would be to say karma operates independantly of one’s belief system given that it does operate.
“For as long as space endures; as long as there are beings to be found; then may I, too, remain; to ease the sufferings of the world.”
Okay, Mr. Official Catholic Spokesperson, let’s hear your pointed remarks addressing my Conservative Protestant conception of Christianity and the doctrine of “saved by faith, not works”. Here’s a soapbox–spill.
Well, you can posit any number of theories as what happens to something after it leaves the realm of the observable. They don’t actually mean anything, of course.
polycarp, oh OK, I knew there was a town named Franklin in the NC mountains. You’re about 3 hours east of me.
robertliguori, I think you mean that nothing can be proven about the un-observable. By the # of religion threads here it is obvious it means a great deal to many people (here at least). Sorry to nitpick.
Who_me?, if I weren’t such a kind person, I could have lots of fun at your expense.
is that it happens to everyone regardless of their beliefs in any one particular incarnation. Fortunately there is literally an infinite time in between lives to be lovingly and compassionately debriefed and re-oriented.
