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  #1  
Old 01-29-2006, 12:43 PM
psychonaut psychonaut is offline
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Can the mentally retarded drink?

I was in a pub the other night and happened to notice someone who looked as though he had Down syndrome drinking with some friends. Now, I know that some people with Down syndrome are intelligent enough to earn college degrees, but seeing him there still got me thinking: if you are an adult retarded to the point where you're about as intelligent as a small child, are you still allowed to buy alcohol? If not, how are merchants and bartenders supposed to know whether or not they can serve you? Seems a bartender would be in quite a bind if an individual with Down syndrome walked into a bar unaccompanied and ordered a beer. Do you serve him the beer, and thus risk prosecution for providing alcohol to a "minor" (cognitively speaking), or do you refuse to serve him, and thus risk prosecution or a lawsuit for illegal discrimination?

I'm aware that laws vary by jurisdiction, but I'm still interested in what would happen in various places, especially for those (if any) in which it is indeed illegal to serve alcohol to the mentally retarded.
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Old 01-29-2006, 12:50 PM
inkleberry inkleberry is offline
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Yes. The retarded have all the same rights you have, including:
-free speech
-voting
- sexual rights including birth control, right to have children, and right to abortion
- right to buy and consume alcohol
- drive
- control their own money
- be their own guardians
- etc.

Rights are not terminated simply due to disability, either mental or physical. In order to have them removed, there would have to be a court order and/or a guardian/conservatorship decision.

And yes, I have seen the retarded drunk. IMHE, they puke a lot more easily.
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Old 01-29-2006, 01:07 PM
psychonaut psychonaut is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inkleberry
Yes. The retarded have all the same rights you have, including:
-free speech
-voting
- sexual rights including birth control, right to have children, and right to abortion
- right to buy and consume alcohol
- drive
- control their own money
- be their own guardians
- etc.

Rights are not terminated simply due to disability, either mental or physical. In order to have them removed, there would have to be a court order and/or a guardian/conservatorship decision.

And yes, I have seen the retarded drunk. IMHE, they puke a lot more easily.
I don't know what jurisdiction you're talking about, but nowhere I've lived granted people the right to drive, at least on public roads. People generally have to pass an examination, and sometimes take compulsory courses first. Since driving is skills-based rather than an inherent right, the freedom of the severely mentally or physically disabled to drive is necessarily abridged.

I'm also skeptical of the claim that the profoundly retarded can be their own guardians and manage their own finances. Wouldn't this make them easy pickings for con artists? For example, a criminal could easily seek out retarded adults who can think, read, and write only at a third-grade level and then get them to sign a power of attorney form. The criminal could then take all their money and property with impunity.
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Old 01-29-2006, 01:10 PM
hajario hajario is offline
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Driving is absolutely not a right. It is a privilege.

If one is old enough and can pass the written and practical test, the can get a license.
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Old 01-29-2006, 01:14 PM
Mahaloth Mahaloth is offline
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So if two retarded people have a child(as is their right), is the child most likely to be retarded?
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Old 01-29-2006, 01:15 PM
psychonaut psychonaut is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inkleberry
Rights are not terminated simply due to disability, either mental or physical. In order to have them removed, there would have to be a court order and/or a guardian/conservatorship decision.
Oh, and to follow up on my original question: OK, assume that a retarded person has indeed been placed by a court under the guardianship of someone. Would this automatically restrict the retarded person's right to drink? If so, my original question stands: how is a bartender supposed to know which retarded persons can drink and which can't? The situations with minors is rather clear-cut: all young-looking patrons are assumed to be underage unless they produce evidence to the contrary. But you can't assume that all retarded persons are allowed to drink unless they produce evidence to the contrary, because no retarded person who wants to drink illegally is going to voluntarily show the bartender his court injunction.
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Old 01-29-2006, 01:21 PM
inkleberry inkleberry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psychonaut
I don't know what jurisdiction you're talking about, but nowhere I've lived granted people the right to drive, at least on public roads. People generally have to pass an examination, and sometimes take compulsory courses first. Since driving is skills-based rather than an inherent right, the freedom of the severely mentally or physically disabled to drive is necessarily abridged.
Obviously. But they have the right to drive as long as they pass the test. Many can and do. Severe mental retardation would obviously be limiting, as would say, quadrapeligia. However, the majority of people who are retarded are in the mild range, and could conceiveably pass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psychonaut
I'm also skeptical of the claim that the profoundly retarded can be their own guardians and manage their own finances. Wouldn't this make them easy pickings for con artists? For example, a criminal could easily seek out retarded adults who can think, read, and write only at a third-grade level and then get them to sign a power of attorney form. The criminal could then take all their money and property with impunity.
Legally, all persons over 18 are there own guardians, unless determined otherwise by the courts. Families of the profoundly retarded usually have guardianship proceedings planned before the person comes of age.

Now, with the mildly mentally retarded (which comprises the majority of people with MR), things are different. Some are there own guardians across the board. Some are their own guardians for medical decisions, living arrangements, etc, but not for finances.

And yes, the problem of being taken advantage of does happen in the community, unfortunately often. However, the retarded aren't *dumb*- and having power over themselves is something they are unlikely to give up.

Do criminals seek out and manipulate the MR? Yes, they do. I am a Program Manager for community living and inclusion program in the area. We have to screen people very carefully, whether they work in our office, have MR folks live with them, act as life skill coaches, volunteer, provide mental health/ theraputic services, whatever. Everyone has to be Livescanned and cleared by DDS. Even that isn't enough though, and you have to watch for people who are predatory.

However, just because someone could be vulnerable doesn't exclude them from having rights. Children, elderly, physically disabled are all examples of vulnerable populations, all of whom hold the same rights as the population in general.
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Old 01-29-2006, 01:22 PM
inkleberry inkleberry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hajario
Driving is absolutely not a right. It is a privilege.

If one is old enough and can pass the written and practical test, the can get a license.

Correct. I wasn't being clear. They have the right to move about as they wish, and have the right to seek out, apply for, and hold a license, provided they pass the test in their location. Just like anyone else.
  #9  
Old 01-29-2006, 01:23 PM
psychonaut psychonaut is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahaloth
So if two retarded people have a child(as is their right), is the child most likely to be retarded?
This depends on the cause of the parents' condition. If it's a heritable genetic condition, then yes, the child is more likely to be retarded than the typical child born to non-retarded parents. However, many types of mental retardation are caused by environmental factors which cannot be passed from parent to child. For example, malnutrition early in life can cause a person to become mentally retarded, though a child born to such a person would not be at greater risk of mental retardation provided it was properly nourished.
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Old 01-29-2006, 01:27 PM
inkleberry inkleberry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psychonaut
Oh, and to follow up on my original question: OK, assume that a retarded person has indeed been placed by a court under the guardianship of someone. Would this automatically restrict the retarded person's right to drink?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psychonaut
If so, my original question stands: how is a bartender supposed to know which retarded persons can drink and which can't? The situations with minors is rather clear-cut: all young-looking patrons are assumed to be underage unless they produce evidence to the contrary. But you can't assume that all retarded persons are allowed to drink unless they produce evidence to the contrary, because no retarded person who wants to drink illegally is going to voluntarily show the bartender his court injunction.
No. This is not the bartender's problem.

I suppose it is possible that a person could have their right to consume alcohol removed, MR or not, if they were chronic DWI people or on parole or something. But it is something I have never see in the realm of MR folks. Certainly not an "automatic" thing.

In any case, it would not be the bartender's problem.
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Old 01-29-2006, 01:29 PM
inkleberry inkleberry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psychonaut
This depends on the cause of the parents' condition. If it's a heritable genetic condition, then yes, the child is more likely to be retarded than the typical child born to non-retarded parents. However, many types of mental retardation are caused by environmental factors which cannot be passed from parent to child. For example, malnutrition early in life can cause a person to become mentally retarded, though a child born to such a person would not be at greater risk of mental retardation provided it was properly nourished.

Correct, as with fetal alcohol syndrome, various in utero infections, MR caused after birth by traumatic injury, blah blah blah.

MR folks can and do raise children, but usually require family/community supports and services.
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Old 01-29-2006, 01:35 PM
psychonaut psychonaut is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inkleberry
However, just because someone could be vulnerable doesn't exclude them from having rights. Children, elderly, physically disabled are all examples of vulnerable populations, all of whom hold the same rights as the population in general.
This makes absolutely no sense. Young children do not have the same rights as the population in general—they are not allowed to consume alcohol, marry, have sex, manage their own finances, be their own guardians, vote, or apply for driving licenses—and moreover this is the case precisely because they are vulnerable. The law, at least in most Western countries, explicitly states that children are unable to give legal consent, and thus cannot enter into contracts or engage in adult behaviour such as drinking and sex. Why an adult with the mental faculties of a child should not be likewise restricted is not self-evident. (I'm not saying I disagree with abridging the rights of the mentally disabled; I'm just saying that most people would find the analogy between children and adults with the mental capacity of children to be generally correct.)

Anyway, the rules of your jursdiction may not be representative of the various legal systems of the world. Until very recently (late 1970s), in many Western jurisdictions the mentally retarded had no right to have children; this injunction was enforced by compulsory sterilization. I wouldn't be surprised if the right to reproduce were still abridged in other countries.
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Old 01-29-2006, 01:57 PM
inkleberry inkleberry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psychonaut
This makes absolutely no sense. Young children do not have the same rights as the population in general—they are not allowed to consume alcohol, marry, have sex, manage their own finances, be their own guardians, vote, or apply for driving licenses—and moreover this is the case precisely because they are vulnerable. The law, at least in most Western countries, explicitly states that children are unable to give legal consent, and thus cannot enter into contracts or engage in adult behaviour such as drinking and sex. Why an adult with the mental faculties of a child should not be likewise restricted is not self-evident. (I'm not saying I disagree with abridging the rights of the mentally disabled; I'm just saying that most people would find the analogy between children and adults with the mental capacity of children to be generally correct.)
True. And excellent points.. Children do not have certain age restricted rights, such as voting, drinking, and driving. They are assumed to be unable to give consent for sexual activity. However, they have the regular human rights such as the right to be free from abuse, free speech, religion (even in group homes they must be allowed to attend services of their choice), medical care, some amount of say in medical decisions, etc. Just because they are vulnerable does not restrict their basic constitutional and human rights.


The idea that MR people= children or child-like is a popular myth, unfortunately supported for a long time by professionals. They aren't. Someone with MR may have the *cognitive* reasoning of a child, and perhaps the *emotional responses* of a child, but they are NOT children. The majority of MR people are a lot like yourself- same dreams and goals, can be manipulative, secretive, or clever, can make plans, can have adult relationships and marriages, etc. I have seen few MR folks, even in the severe range, whom I would catagorize as "child-like."


Quote:
Originally Posted by psychonaut
Anyway, the rules of your jursdiction may not be representative of the various legal systems of the world. Until very recently (late 1970s), in many Western jurisdictions the mentally retarded had no right to have children; this injunction was enforced by compulsory sterilization. I wouldn't be surprised if the right to reproduce were still abridged in other countries.
I have no idea what goes on in other countries regarding this issue. I do know, however, that since the '70s forced sterilization is illegal. I have seen clients in programs in MA, CT, and CA that were sterilized forcibly (usually as children for the women) pre-1970's. That is no longer the case, though, and courts have upheld the right for the MR to have children since that time.

Yes, of course you will find cases where judges have ruled that women who aren't MR have had to have norplant inserted or be sterilized, usually involving drug use or repeated child neglect, but these cases are very controversial, and I'm not sure how many stand. They also are part of a larger issue of reproductive rights, not MR rights in general.
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Old 01-29-2006, 02:19 PM
Analogue Skywalker Analogue Skywalker is offline
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There is a man in my social circle that was born fetal alcohol syndrome and is obviously mentally handicapped or "retarded". Everytime I go to the establishment that I frequent, he is there drinking.
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Old 01-30-2006, 05:08 PM
gotpasswords gotpasswords is offline
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AFAIK, as long as you're at or beyond the state-specified age, have the necessary knowledge and can demonstrate that you're physically able to control a car, you have a right to apply for a drivers licence. The license itself is a privilege.

Last I looked, our Bill of Rights does not say "unless you are mentally impaired, have red hair or are named Forrest"
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Old 08-04-2017, 02:04 PM
JamesBoa JamesBoa is offline
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In the state of Arkansas is it illegal to knowingly serve alcohol in any form to some who is mentally insane or has a mental defiency
  #17  
Old 08-04-2017, 02:32 PM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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Originally Posted by JamesBoa View Post
In the state of Arkansas is it illegal to knowingly serve alcohol in any form to some who is mentally insane or has a mental defiency
Here's a link to the relevant statutes of Arkansas. Some quaint, old language in them.

Laws of Arkansas Regarding Prohibited Practices by Sellers of Alcohol
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Old 08-04-2017, 02:49 PM
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Way late for this party, but I'd like to say that when you see a disabled person living "independently", there is usually an army of support behind him/her that allows that to happen. My niece drives a car, lives in her own apartment, has a bank account and credit card, and holds a very low-level government job. People always comment about how wonderful it is that she can be so independent. Nothing could be further from the truth. They don't see the meltdowns over a birthday party, the trail of totaled cars, the many hours of financial oversight that is provided by her legal guardians, the mountains of paperwork that have to be completed every year for the courts to allow continued guardianship, or the really hard fucking work it takes so that she can appear "independent" to other people. It's exhausting and has been dutifully accomplished for the past 50+ years by my sister and her other siblings.
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Old 08-04-2017, 03:03 PM
Ignotus Ignotus is offline
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I sure have staggered out of many a bar with plenty less wit than most mentally retarded...
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Old 08-04-2017, 03:10 PM
Potestas Potestas is offline
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Is it insensitive to refer to people suffering from mental retardation as retarded or do we refer to them now as mentally disabled or handicap? What is the correct terminology?
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Old 08-04-2017, 03:16 PM
JamesBoa JamesBoa is offline
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Completely understand chef ... I am in home health and have a client who doesnt even appear to be fit (and isnt) to be independent he has neighbors who are feeding him alcohol on a constant basis (serving him so he can pay for it) as soon as I leave its morally wrong on soo many levels but Im wondering what its considered if not financial exploitation of a vunerable adult in this situation he has extreme intellectual disabilities for example cannot add 2+2 cannot bathe without prompting brush his teeth or anything on his own
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Old 08-04-2017, 03:17 PM
JamesBoa JamesBoa is offline
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Intellectual disabilities or MR ... potestas
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Old 08-04-2017, 03:24 PM
JamesBoa JamesBoa is offline
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Its one of those things where you can call it MR but dont you dare call them mentally retarded ... Walks like a duck talks like a duck yup its a fuckin duck
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Old 08-04-2017, 08:08 PM
Broomstick Broomstick is offline
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Originally Posted by psychonaut View Post
I'm also skeptical of the claim that the profoundly retarded can be their own guardians and manage their own finances. Wouldn't this make them easy pickings for con artists? For example, a criminal could easily seek out retarded adults who can think, read, and write only at a third-grade level and then get them to sign a power of attorney form. The criminal could then take all their money and property with impunity.
Profoundly retarded people aren't their own guardians, but most mentally retarded folks aren't that bad off.

I have a coworker who is clearly in that category of disabled. He doesn't drive but he budgets for and buys his own groceries, does his own cooking, buys his own clothes, does his own laundry, and is pretty self-sufficient for a lot of things. He was promoted last year on his demonstrated ability at doing his job and attention to detail and safety. That said, he does require some help with insurance and legal forms as his reading ability is shaky. He has problems but he's not helpless, and while people have on occasion tried to take advantage of him there have been a few instances where his lack of comprehension and desire to follow the rules both acted to defeat the con artist - an overly elaborate story is not going to work on someone incapable of following it.

Yes, he needs some help and supervision, but he's not helpless. He functions at a high enough level that most people who interact with him briefly aren't aware of his disability, you'd need an extended conversation with him to figure that out. And if he wants to have a beer after work I certainly wouldn't have a problem with it.

The mentally retarded are, like the rest of us, individuals with different capabilities and flaws. Some can handle booze, some can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahaloth View Post
So if two retarded people have a child(as is their right), is the child most likely to be retarded?
Depends on what causes the retardation.

People with trisomy 21/Down's syndrome have impaired fertility compared to the rest of the population. About half such women are fertile, and if they conceive the chance is 50/50 the child will also have Down's syndrome. Which means they are also 50/50 that any such child will be normal. Men with Down's syndrome have much lower fertility than normal men, but should not be assumed to be infertile even if most of them are.

There are other causes of mental retardation, of course. If the cause is genetic then there are increased odds of the same occurring in any potential children. People mentally impaired due to environmental reasons (from womb conditions and onwards) have no genetic defect to pass on and therefore their children are at no greater (or lesser) risk than anyone else's.
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Old 08-04-2017, 09:20 PM
nearwildheaven nearwildheaven is offline
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My parents used to go to their local minor-league baseball games, and mentally disabled people from various organizations and group homes would attend by the van-load, and they said that they sure do love beer! As long as they're ordering it themselves and are not on medications or do not have medical conditions where it's contraindicated, why shouldn't they have it, just like people who are not disabled.

Also, I used to work with a woman who found out that her profoundly disabled son, who is now in his early 20s and currently lives in a care facility, could, as an adolescent, tell beer from soda, and yes, he preferred beer. They take him home for visits all the time, which include all the activities he did before, like hunting with his dad and his extended family, and they do let him have a beer if he wants one but do need to monitor his consumption. He doesn't have a lot of pleasures in his life; why deny him this?
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Old 08-04-2017, 10:44 PM
nightshadea nightshadea is offline
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actually they can have credit cards and legally use them too

My cousin is 43 but has the mental capacity of an 8 year old on a good day and she has credit cards in her name that mom is allowed to use for the care and feeding of said cousin

Well one day in dillards on the makeup counter she was holding her card and ID in her pocket (it made her feel important so they let her) and seen a 250 dollar pair of liz clairborne sunglasses and walked to the counter girl handing her the card id and the glasses who was ringing her up when we noticed what was going on my aunt ran over to stop her..........

Turns out since the id matched the card and since my cousin could sign her first name the salesgirl couldn't legally (due to the ADA) stop her from buying her glasses ..... the manager was called over and explained this to my aunt but she and my aunt talked her into a pair of somewhat cheaper glasses (95$!) and there hanging on her wall like a trophy and she points them out occasionaly ........... and when she wants something and someone tells her theres no moneye she says "use my cards "
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Old 08-06-2017, 04:09 PM
nearwildheaven nearwildheaven is offline
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and when she wants something and someone tells her theres no moneye she says "use my cards "
There are a lot of people who are NOT mentally disabled who have this attitude, or worse yet, write checks they know will bounce.
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Old 08-06-2017, 05:09 PM
nightshadea nightshadea is offline
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yes but she knows how much is on them and knows mom doesn't use them for anyone else so we cant use the "were broke " excuse when she wants something she dosent really need or they don't want her to have .....
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Old 08-06-2017, 06:38 PM
SigMan SigMan is offline
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So if two retarded people have a child(as is their right), is the child most likely to be retarded?
I would say very likely. I have a friend who has Down's Syndrome and his wife is simple minded. Both of their boys are severely retarded.
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Old 08-07-2017, 09:12 AM
Broomstick Broomstick is offline
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For mental retardation caused by genetic problems (like Downs syndrome) that's true, but for MR caused by non-genetic reasons no, the kids are no more likely to be MR than any other kids.
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Old 08-07-2017, 12:58 PM
nearwildheaven nearwildheaven is offline
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I would say very likely. I have a friend who has Down's Syndrome and his wife is simple minded. Both of their boys are severely retarded.
Who is taking care of their children? Do you know why the boys are retarded?
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Old 08-07-2017, 01:29 PM
HeyHomie HeyHomie is offline
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Years ago, when I worked in the industry, I took some developmentally disabled guys to Godfather's for "Mike's" birthday. Mike, who was comfortably in his thirties at the time, ordered a beer. The girl behind the counter looked at me for advice. I was like, "Do you need to see his ID?"

Yes, in Illinois at least, developmentally disabled adults have just as much right to a tall, cold one as you or I do. If they are on medications where alcohol consumption is contraindicated, or they're on a special diet, or if their guardians don't want them to*, then no, they won't be permitted to buy or drink alcohol.

*Denying a DD adult the right to drink, in the absence of a medical reason, would require the signature of a judge, since in Illinois that's consider a "restraint," and restraints require a judge's order.

Last edited by HeyHomie; 08-07-2017 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 08-07-2017, 02:29 PM
SigMan SigMan is offline
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Who is taking care of their children? Do you know why the boys are retarded?
The parents are and I don't know why.
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Old 08-07-2017, 06:25 PM
nearwildheaven nearwildheaven is offline
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On a more disturbing note, I remember a piece on 20/20 or some similar program about a young man with fetal alcohol syndrome who was found dead in a trash can with an extremely high BAC. When I saw the kids, who all looked like (and IIRC were) cheerleaders and megajocks, who had been with him that evening, I knew exactly what had happened.

They wanted booze, and invited him out to party with them because he was 21 years old, still in school because of special ed regulations, and they were using him to obtain it. These kids, of course, denied all that. I don't remember what happened to them, but I sure hope they are carrying very guilty consciences for having committed involuntary manslaughter.

Last edited by nearwildheaven; 08-07-2017 at 06:26 PM.
  #35  
Old 08-07-2017, 07:49 PM
Atamasama Atamasama is offline
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Originally Posted by gotpasswords View Post
Last I looked, our Bill of Rights does not say "unless you are mentally impaired, have red hair or are named Forrest"
Forest Whitaker is constantly showing his license to prove his name is spelled with one "R" and has the same rights as everyone.
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Old 08-07-2017, 08:39 PM
seal_cleaner seal_cleaner is offline
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It is possible to take the written exam verbally (in some states). I worked at a center for the developmentally disabled, and a teacher spent the better part of a year preparing a teenager for his driver's license. Personally, I thought it was a mistake. He loved the Dukes of Hazard and played with toy cars. Dunno what ever happened with him.
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Old 08-08-2017, 12:09 AM
nearwildheaven nearwildheaven is offline
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I know of a young woman with Down syndrome who, for a while anyway, seemed on the road to get a license. She turned out to be intelligent enough to pass the written test, but did not have the hand-eye coordination to be a safe driver.
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Old 08-08-2017, 12:28 AM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is online now
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Drinking sort of levels the intellectual playing field for everybody.

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Old 08-08-2017, 09:23 AM
Atamasama Atamasama is offline
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Originally Posted by seal_cleaner View Post
It is possible to take the written exam verbally (in some states). I worked at a center for the developmentally disabled, and a teacher spent the better part of a year preparing a teenager for his driver's license. Personally, I thought it was a mistake. He loved the Dukes of Hazard and played with toy cars. Dunno what ever happened with him.
Someday the mountain might get him but the law never will.
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Old 08-08-2017, 12:57 PM
Alan Smithee Alan Smithee is offline
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Originally Posted by HeyHomie View Post
Years ago, when I worked in the industry, I took some developmentally disabled guys to Godfather's for "Mike's" birthday. Mike, who was comfortably in his thirties at the time, ordered a beer. The girl behind the counter looked at me for advice. I was like, "Do you need to see his ID?"

Yes, in Illinois at least, developmentally disabled adults have just as much right to a tall, cold one as you or I do. If they are on medications where alcohol consumption is contraindicated, or they're on a special diet, or if their guardians don't want them to*, then no, they won't be permitted to buy or drink alcohol.

*Denying a DD adult the right to drink, in the absence of a medical reason, would require the signature of a judge, since in Illinois that's consider a "restraint," and restraints require a judge's order.
Permitted by whom? If I go to Illinois, do I need to bring a list of my medications to show the bartender for his approval, or does that law just apply to DD individuals?

I suspect that if a person who is her own guardian tries to buy alcohol, they will be permitted to regardless of their diet or medications, and if they are under guardianship, it will be up to the guardian to decide on and enforce any medical restriction, not the bartender or (barring extreme cases) the law.
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Old 08-08-2017, 03:37 PM
HeyHomie HeyHomie is offline
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Originally Posted by Alan Smithee View Post
Permitted by whom? If I go to Illinois, do I need to bring a list of my medications to show the bartender for his approval, or does that law just apply to DD individuals?

I suspect that if a person who is her own guardian tries to buy alcohol, they will be permitted to regardless of their diet or medications, and if they are under guardianship, it will be up to the guardian to decide on and enforce any medical restriction, not the bartender or (barring extreme cases) the law.
Permitted by the group home they live in, or, if they're not their own guardian, by their guardian. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

If "Mike" had been on a no-alcohol diet due to prescription meds or his guardian forbidding it or whatever, and I facilitated his buying a beer, I'd have been fired in a heartbeat. Fortunately Mike's mom was a doughty Irishwoman who liked to imbibe, so all was well.

In Illinois at least (as of a decade ago), officially a DD person has the same rights as a non-DD person - assuming those rights aren't abrogated by the person's guardian. Unofficially, depending on the group home they live in, those rights exist more on paper than they do in real life. One particular example that comes to mind is that of a man in his sixties who loved him some boobies. He had nudey posters on the walls of his private bedroom in the group home where he lived, as was his right. His devoutly Catholic, 90-something mother saw that and, once she regained consciousness, gave all of the caregivers present an earful. Then she called their boss and ripped her a new one. Then the posters came down. Totally illegal, and I suppose if anyone wanted to they could have made a phone call to the state agency that handles these things. But the group home just made it a general point to try to redirect the guy away from nudey posters just to keep peace. I'm not saying it's right, but it happened (and likely still happens).
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